https://gargwiki.net/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Merlyn&feedformat=atomGargWiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-19T04:52:22ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.30.0https://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Pledge&diff=40362The Pledge2024-03-15T00:11:30Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic6A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #6 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Pledge"''' is the sixth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on March 6th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/OCT230233]<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The End of an Era!<br />
<br />
The [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyles]] attempt to reason with a [[Dragon]] - and the resulting battle, high in the skies above [[Castle Wyvern]], will change their destiny forever!<br />
<br />
The final chapter of the Gargoyles' legendary origin story arrives in December from writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS! This 40-page issue includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, ERICA HENDERSON, and more!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
===Opening Quote===<br />
A treasure has been taken . . .<br />
<br />
===Chapter Story===<br />
<br />
===The Tale of the Three Brothers===<br />
Alesand comments how on the sixth night of the [[Illuminati|Light-Bringers']] visit, there was no performance, due to [[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern's]] attack. She and Antiope arrive just in time to hear [[Shari|Shahrizad]] begin the final part of the tale:<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#Before 994|971]], news that King Culen finally has an heir to the throne, [[Constantine III|Constantine]], reaches Prince Malcolm and his family in Northern England. <br />
<br />
Alesand notes that the story being told has very nearly caught up to the time she and the others had gathered by the fire. Prince Malcolm is in attendance once more, though his attention seems to be elsewhere . . .<br />
<br />
Now seventeen, Prince Malcolm convinces [[Kenneth II|Prince Kenneth]] to fight for Duff’s crown, arguing that if the two of them don’t deal with Culen now, Malcolm’s young nephews [[Maol Chalvim II]] and Kenneth III will one day feel compelled to confront Constantine. Kenneth II begins securing allies in Scotland, but realizes he’s going to require additional – and powerful – support. Malcolm and Lieutenant Robbie soon slip into Scotland and arrive at [[Wyvern Hill]]. Although they arrived with enough time to be amongst the gargoyle clan before they awakened, they knew that would not leave a good impression. Instead, they wait a mile or so from the cliffside. Prince Malcolm is hesitant about the pending encounter. He's only seen gargoyles from a distance, and he's never asked one a favor before.<br />
<br />
As Shahrizad continues her tale, Alesand notes once more how shocked the Prince and her father are once more at just how accurate her account was.<br />
<br />
They come across a [[Coldstone|young gargoyle sentry]] (that remembers Robbie), who leads them to the [[rookery]] to meet the clan’s [[Hudson|Rhydderch]].<br />
<br />
That very gargoyle, also listening to the story, growls at the Storyteller's description of him, but [[Desdemona|another gargoyle]] is quick to calm him down.<br />
<br />
Shahrizad leaves the tale there, much to Alesand's frustration. While Shahrizad explains that there are others around the fire that can continue the story, Alesand recalls telling the dark-haired lady that she never finishes a story – that she never reaches the end. But the teller of the tale assures her that "no good story ever truly ends. . ."<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
"Dark Ages: Alliance" concludes in this issue. The final installment of the story feels compressed; perhaps it needed at least one more chapter. But it still contains many fine moments.<br />
<br />
The "compressed" feeling comes from [[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern the dragon's]] attack, which had to be told in just one issue. The battle is impressive, and makes Wyvern seem a formidable opponent (fighting on furiously despite everything that the [[Gargoyle|gargoyles]], the {{Humans|human]] archers, and the [[Archmage]] can do to him), but the lack of room meant that he has to call off the fight and go back to his lair in a rage after discovering that someone had taken something from his hoard. (Though his parting words about the outcome of the gargoyles' alliance with the humans are effectively chilling, given what we know will happen twenty-three years later.)<br />
<br />
To make up for it, we have some good exchanges in the fight. [[Hudson|Mentor]] continues to hold to the notion that working with the humans is the right course to take (even recalling [[Verity|Verity's]] statement that human problems become gargoyle problems) - while Wyvern argues that humans are the problem. And the theft from the hoard itself offers material for future stories: the object in question is [[Excalibur|Excalibur]], which [[Peredur fab Ragnal|Peredur]] and [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]] recover; Wyvern had stolen the great sword. How he obtained it after its return to the lake (assuming that that took place in the [[Gargoyles Universe]]) is as yet unknown, but might be a story for another time. (So, also, is how it went from Peredur and Blanchefleur's keeping to the [[Brooklyn Botanical Gardens]] - appropriately, hidden within [[Stone Dragon|another dragon]], if of a different nature from Wyvern.) We see [[Brother Valdez]] following them as they head for [[Carbonek]], which itself may offer material for future stories. (Excalibur is not the only object taken from the treasure; [[Demona|Angel]] finds a [[Puck's Flute|flute]] there as well, which she afterwards presents to the Archmage. In an amusing touch, we get a close-up of a goblet amid the gold before Angel picks up the flute; the choice of object for a misdirection moment evokes both "Beowulf" and "The Hobbit".)<br />
<br />
For all the "rushed resolution" feeling with Wyvern, the ending pages are charming, as we see hopeful signs for the alliance ahead (even while, again, knowing how it will conclude): Mentor and [[Prince Malcolm]] shaking hands, [[Lefty]] and a human workman building the castle walls together, and on the last page, [[Shari|Shahrizad]] beginning her tale to a crowd of humans and gargoyles side by side (with, as a final lovely touch, the Players' dog nestled up beside the gargoyle beasts). And, of course, the caption at the bottom, "Never the end".<br />
<br />
We also get the final chapter of "The Tale of the Three Brothers", which concludes on the same note (Shahrizad pointing out "that no good story ever truly ends"). (My only regret about this last installment is that the use of plain text and italics to show which parts of the story were her tale and which parts belonged to [[Alesand]] and the others listening to her tale were inconsistent.)<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Location===<br />
*[[Northumberland Keep]]<br />
<br />
===Objects===<br />
*[[Scrying Glass]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Dream|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Five: "The Dream"]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes|Pledge, The]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages|Pledge, The]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Pledge&diff=40350The Pledge2024-03-14T13:40:05Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic6A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #6 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Pledge"''' is the sixth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on March 6th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/OCT230233]<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The End of an Era!<br />
<br />
The [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyles]] attempt to reason with a [[Dragon]] - and the resulting battle, high in the skies above [[Castle Wyvern]], will change their destiny forever!<br />
<br />
The final chapter of the Gargoyles' legendary origin story arrives in December from writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS! This 40-page issue includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, ERICA HENDERSON, and more!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
===Opening Quote===<br />
A treasure has been taken . . .<br />
<br />
===Chapter Story===<br />
<br />
===The Tale of the Three Brothers===<br />
Alesand comments how on the sixth night of the [[Illuminati|Light-Bringers']] visit, there was no performance, due to [[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern's]] attack. She and Antiope arrive just in time to hear [[Shari|Shahrizad]] begin the final part of the tale:<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#Before 994|971]], news that King Culen finally has an heir to the throne, [[Constantine III|Constantine]], reaches Prince Malcolm and his family in Northern England. <br />
<br />
Alesand notes that the story being told has very nearly caught up to the time she and the others had gathered by the fire. Prince Malcolm is in attendance once more, though his attention seems to be elsewhere . . .<br />
<br />
Now seventeen, Prince Malcolm convinces [[Kenneth II|Prince Kenneth]] to fight for Duff’s crown, arguing that if the two of them don’t deal with Culen now, Malcolm’s young nephews [[Maol Chalvim II]] and Kenneth III will one day feel compelled to confront Constantine. Kenneth II begins securing allies in Scotland, but realizes he’s going to require additional – and powerful – support. Malcolm and Lieutenant Robbie soon slip into Scotland and arrive at [[Wyvern Hill]]. Although they arrived with enough time to be amongst the gargoyle clan before they awakened, they knew that would not leave a good impression. Instead, they wait a mile or so from the cliffside. Prince Malcolm is hesitant about the pending encounter. He's only seen gargoyles from a distance, and he's never asked one a favor before.<br />
<br />
As Shahrizad continues her tale, Alesand notes once more how shocked the Prince and her father are once more at just how accurate her account was.<br />
<br />
They come across a [[Coldstone|young gargoyle sentry]] (that remembers Robbie), who leads them to the [[rookery]] to meet the clan’s [[Hudson|Rhydderch]].<br />
<br />
That very gargoyle, also listening to the story, growls at the Storyteller's description of him, but [[Desdemona|another gargoyle]] is quick to calm him down.<br />
<br />
Shahrizad leaves the tale there, much to Alesand's frustration. While Shahrizad explains that there are others around the fire that can continue the story, Alesand recalls telling the dark-haired lady that she never finishes a story – that she never reaches the end. But the teller of the tale assures her that "no good story ever truly ends. . ."<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
"Dark Ages: Alliance" concludes in this issue. The final instalment of the story feels compressed; perhaps it needed at least one more chapter. But it still contains many fine moments.<br />
<br />
The "compressed" feeling comes from Wyvern the dragon's attack, which had to be told in just one issue. The battle is impressive, and makes Wyvern seem a formidable opponent (fighting on furiously despite everything that the gargoyles, the human archers, and the Archmage can do to him), but the lack of room meant that he has to call off the fight and go back to his lair in a rage after discovering that someone had taken something from his hoard. (Though his parting words about the outcome of the gargoyles' alliance with the humans are effectively chilling, given what we know will happen twenty-three years later.)<br />
<br />
To make up for it, we have some good exchanges in the fight. Mentor continues to hold to the notion that working with the humans is the right course to take (even recalling Verity's statement that human problems become gargoyle problems) - while Wyvern argues that humans are the problem. And the theft from the hoard itself offers material for future stories: the object in question is Excalibur, which Peredur and Blanchefleur recover; Wyvern had stolen the great sword. How he obtained it after its return to the lake (assuming that that took place in the Gargoyles Universe) is as yet unknown, but might be a story for another time. (So, also, is how it went from Peredur and Blanchefleur's keeping to the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens - appropriately, hidden within another dragon, if of a different nature from Wyvern.) We see Valdez following them as they head for Carbonek, which itself may offer material for future stories. (Excalibur is not the only object taken from the treasure; Angel finds a flute there as well, which she afterwards presents to the Archmage. In an amusing touch, we get a close-up of a goblet amid the gold before Angel picks up the flute; the choice of object for a misdirection moment evokes both "Beowulf" and "The Hobbit".)<br />
<br />
For all the "rushed resolution" feeling with Wyvern, the ending pages are charming, as we see hopeful signs for the alliance ahead (even while, again, knowing how it will conclude): Mentor and Prince Malcolm shaking hands, Lefty and a human workman building the castle walls together, and on the last page, Shahrizad beginning her tale to a crowd of humans and gargoyles side by side (with, as a final lovely touch, the Players' dog nestled up beside the gargoyle beasts). And, of course, the caption at the bottom, "Never the end".<br />
<br />
We also get the final chapter of "The Tale of the Three Brothers", which concludes on the same note (Shahrizad pointing out "that no good story ever truly ends"). (My only regret about this last instalment is that the use of plain text and italics to show which parts of the story were her tale and which parts belonged to Alesand and the others listening to her tale were inconsistent.)<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Location===<br />
*[[Northumberland Keep]]<br />
<br />
===Objects===<br />
*[[Scrying Glass]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Dream|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Five: "The Dream"]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes|Pledge, The]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages|Pledge, The]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Wyvern_(Dragon)&diff=40338Wyvern (Dragon)2024-03-13T03:19:51Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Wyvern_The_Dream.jpg|thumb|400px|Wyvern in [[Timeline#Before 994|971]].]]<br />
<br />
'''Wyvern''' is a [[Dragon|dragon]] who lived deep beneath the ground in the caverns of [[Wyvern Hill]].<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
At some point in the past, Wyvern brought a clan of [[gargoyle|gargoyles]] to what would become known as Wyvern Hill, and those gargoyles would become the ancestors of the [[Wyvern Clan]]. He brought the gargoyles to Wyvern to protect his lands, his treasure, and his rest from the [[Human|humans]].<br />
<br />
Also at some unknown point in the past, Wyvern stole the sword [[Excalibur]] and added it to his hoard.<br />
<br />
In [[971]], Wyvern was awoken by the arrival in his cave of [[Antiope]], the [[Trio]], and [[Alesand]]. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Characteristics==<br />
Wyvern is a dragon of immense size and power. He considers the Wyvern Clan and, perhaps, [[Gargoyle|gargoyles]] in general to be his cousins. But he harbors a deep hatred of humans, considering them the greatest threat to all of the [[Gargate|"Stone Flesh"]]. While he is reluctant to kill gargoyles, he's not completely unwilling to. ''("The Dream")''<br />
<br />
During the battle in the skies over the construction site of [[Castle Wyvern]], Wyvern was blinded in his left eye by the [[Archmage]] firing a [[Lightning Spell|bolt of lightning]] from the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]''. ''([[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]])''<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Possession|"Possession"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[The Oath|"The Oath"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Dream|"The Dream"]]<br />
* [[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]]<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
[[Image:Dark_Ages_Dragon1.JPG|thumb|300px|{{CIT|[[Hudson|Mentor]], [[Goliath]], and [[Demona|Angel]] battle Wyvern in the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' pitch.}} Despite its appearance in at least eleven conventions, the fandom didn't seem to pick up on this.]]<br />
<br />
Wyvern appeared in one of the pitch cards for ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' that [[Greg Weisman]] used to try to sell the show to Disney in 1996, and played at every [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] convention starting in 1999 until the convention ended in 2009. Funny enough, the fanbase never guessed the significance of the dragon. [https://spidey-dude.com/voices-from-the-eyrie-43-the-30th-anniversary-celebration-begins/]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Dragons]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Wyvern_(Dragon)&diff=40337Wyvern (Dragon)2024-03-13T03:19:35Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Wyvern_The_Dream.jpg|thumb|400px|Wyvern in [[Timeline#Before 994|971]].]]<br />
<br />
'''Wyvern''' is a [[Dragon|dragon]] who lived deep beneath the ground in the caverns of [[Wyvern Hill]].<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
At some point in the past, Wyvern brought a clan of [[gargoyle|gargoyles]] to what would become known as Wyvern Hill, and those gargoyles would become the ancestors of the [[Wyvern Clan]]. He brought the gargoyles to Wyvern to protect his lands, his treasure, and his rest from the [[Human|humans]].<br />
<br />
Also, at some unknown point in the past, Wyvern stole the sword [[Excalibur]] and added it to his hoard.<br />
<br />
In [[971]], Wyvern was awoken by the arrival in his cave of [[Antiope]], the [[Trio]], and [[Alesand]]. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Characteristics==<br />
Wyvern is a dragon of immense size and power. He considers the Wyvern Clan and, perhaps, [[Gargoyle|gargoyles]] in general to be his cousins. But he harbors a deep hatred of humans, considering them the greatest threat to all of the [[Gargate|"Stone Flesh"]]. While he is reluctant to kill gargoyles, he's not completely unwilling to. ''("The Dream")''<br />
<br />
During the battle in the skies over the construction site of [[Castle Wyvern]], Wyvern was blinded in his left eye by the [[Archmage]] firing a [[Lightning Spell|bolt of lightning]] from the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]''. ''([[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]])''<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Possession|"Possession"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[The Oath|"The Oath"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Dream|"The Dream"]]<br />
* [[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]]<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
[[Image:Dark_Ages_Dragon1.JPG|thumb|300px|{{CIT|[[Hudson|Mentor]], [[Goliath]], and [[Demona|Angel]] battle Wyvern in the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' pitch.}} Despite its appearance in at least eleven conventions, the fandom didn't seem to pick up on this.]]<br />
<br />
Wyvern appeared in one of the pitch cards for ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' that [[Greg Weisman]] used to try to sell the show to Disney in 1996, and played at every [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] convention starting in 1999 until the convention ended in 2009. Funny enough, the fanbase never guessed the significance of the dragon. [https://spidey-dude.com/voices-from-the-eyrie-43-the-30th-anniversary-celebration-begins/]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Dragons]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Peredur_fab_Ragnal&diff=40270Peredur fab Ragnal2024-03-09T01:48:49Z<p>Merlyn: /* Real World Background */ This quote from Roger Lancelyn Green - particularly the "light" part - matches Peredur and Blanchefleur's activities in the Gargoyles Universe</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Peredur.png|thumb|220px|Peredur fab Ragnal in 1996]]<br />
[[Image:Player_King_The_Promise.jpg|thumb|220px|The Player King and Queen in 971]]<br />
<br />
'''Peredur fab Ragnal''' is the leader of the [[Illuminati]], who achieved the [[Holy Grail]] {{CIT|and became the [[Fisher King]]}}. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=843][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11978][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12554]<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
{{CIT|He married [[Fleur|Lady Blanchefleur]], and ruled over [[Castle Carbonek]] by her side. Peredur is apparently an illegitimate son of [[Gawain]], one of [[King Arthur Pendragon]]'s leading knights, by Lady [[Ragnal]].}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1303]<br />
<br />
{{CIT|In the early [[Timeline#Before 994|7th century A.D]]., Peredur founded the Illuminati Society, for some as yet unknown purpose, though probably connected to Arthur's anticipated return (which he expected to take place at the end of the [[Timeline#1998-2197|22nd century]]).}} [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=591][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4593]<br />
<br />
In 971, under the alias of the Player King, Peredur, accompanied by Blanchefleur and Shari, visited [[Wyvern Hill]] to witness the building of [[Castle Wyvern]], and bantered with the suspicious [[Brother Valdez]]. Later, when [[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern the dragon]] was distracted by his attack on Wyvern Hill, he and Fleur used the opportunity to sneak into the [[dragon]]'s [[Archmage's Cave|lair]]. There they found the sword [[Excalibur]] where it had been kept since being stolen. With the sword safe in hand, Peredur called Castle Carbonek and was spirited away to safety. ''([[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]])''<br />
<br />
In November, [[Timeline#1996|1996]], Peredur issued orders to [[David Xanatos]], through [[Quincy Hemings]], to seize the [[Stone of Destiny]] en route to [[Scotland]]. ''([[Bash|"Bash"]])'' While the stone that he received may not have been the original, the [[Spirit of Destiny]] spoke to Peredur stating that it cannot be possessed. It also informed Peredur that King Arthur had awakened. Not expecting Arthur to awaken for another two centuries, and fearing their plans had been disrupted, Peredur convened a meeting of the upper echelon members.<br />
<br />
Blanchefleur and [[Duval]] are the two people he loves most in this world. ''([[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]])''<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Bash|"Bash"]] (Mentioned)<br />
* [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] (First Appearance)<br />
* [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
* [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
* [[The Dream|"The Dream"]]<br />
* [[The Pledge|"The Pledge"]]<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
"Peredur" is the Welsh counterpart of Sir [[Percival]], one of King Arthur's knights in the medieval romances, and the initial Grail hero. He is the protagonist of the Welsh prose romance ''Peredur Son of Evrawg''.<br />
<br />
Peredur seems to have begun as a Dark Age British warrior-hero; there was a prince in northern Britain during the late 6th century A.D. who bore that name and may have been the original of this figure. ("Evrawg", the name of the Arthurian Peredur's father, is thought to be derived from "Eboracum", the Roman name for York.) It is as yet unknown when he became identified with the Percival of Arthurian romance, though ''Peredur Son of Evrawg'' is thought to have been composed during the thirteenth century.<br />
<br />
Sir Percival himself first appeared in the 12th century French verse romance, ''Perceval, or the Story of the Grail'', by Chretien de Troyes, which also introduced the Grail into Arthurian literature. Chretien left the story unfinished, and many writers after him tried to complete it for him, in a series of works known as "Continuations". In the early 13th century, Robert de Boron composed a trilogy about Percival and the Grail, though the third book, which would have dealt with Percival himself, is lost. The "Prose Lancelot" or Vulgate Cycle introduced Sir Galahad into the Grail story and made him the chief Grail hero, though preserving Percival as a sort of runner-up, one of the three knights who achieved the Grail, alongside Galahad and Bors de Ganis. Malory used this version in his ''[[Le Morte d'Arthur]]'', though in more recent years, many writers on the Grail have turned back to the older, Percival version of the story.<br />
<br />
The story of Percival differs in its details from one storyteller to the next, but generally agree on the skeleton of the tale. Percival's mother raised him in secret in a remote forest in Britain (usually located in Wales), keeping him ignorant of knights and knighthood (in most versions of the story, his father and older brothers had been slain in battle or tournaments, and she wished to spare him from the same fate). But one day, when he was in his mid-teens, Percival saw a few of King Arthur's knights riding through the forest. Mistaking them for angels, he greeted them and learned of their true nature. After asking them about their arms and armor, and the work of a knight, he ran away from home to go to King Arthur's court and become a knight himself.<br />
<br />
Percival came to King Arthur's court just as a knight in red armor stole a cup from the king's table and rode off with it, challenging any of Arthur's knights to meet him in single combat and battle him over the cup. Percival took up the challenge, and slew the Red Knight by hurling a javelin straight through the visor of his helmet and into his eye. He then, after removing the Red Knight's armor with some difficulty (being unfamiliar with armor, he was about to resort to the desperate measure of burning the knight out of it before one of Arthur's knights courteously showed him how to take the armor off the Red Knight) and donning it, set off for a life of adventure, during which he met his lady-love, Blanchefleur, for the first time. He also came to the Grail Castle (the counterpart to Carbonek, though the name is not found in Chretien, and first appears in the Vulgate Cycle), where his old uncle the Fisher King ruled. The Fisher King was crippled with a terrible spear-wound in the leg, which could only be healed by somebody asking him a specific question (what this question is varies from tale to tale; some versions make it "Whom does the Grail serve?", while others make it "What pains you so?"); when Percival ate dinner with him and his court, he wished to ask the question, but remained silent because he had been advised not to go around plaguing people with numerous questions. He only learned after he had left the Grail Castle that he had done the wrong thing by remaining silent, and that if he had asked the question, the Fisher King would have been healed, and would have recognized Percival as his nephew and heir.<br />
<br />
Percival returned to Arthur's court, where he became a knight of the Round Table; however, not long afterwards, a hideous woman appeared and berated him before the entire court for not asking the question. Percival left Arthur's court at once in desperation to find the Grail Castle again and ask the question. He rode about looking for it for five years, in the process becoming increasingly forgetful of God and not even attending services at church, until he met some knights and ladies on Good Friday, who rebuked him for riding armed on such a day. Chastened, Percival sought out a nearby hermit, who gave him spiritual instruction, and told him also that he had failed in part to ask the question on his visit to the Grail Castle because he had abandoned his mother, who had consequently died of a broken heart. (It is here that Chretien's account broke off.) In the Continuations, Percival usually returns to the castle, asks the question, and succeeds his uncle to the guardianship of the Grail, but in the Vulgate Cycle and Malory, he becomes a hermit near the city of Sarras (somewhere in the Middle East) after Galahad's death and the taking of the Grail up to Heaven, dying himself a year later. The Welsh romance "Peredur" takes a remarkably different turn; it omits the Grail, and instead gives Peredur the duty of avenging a murdered kinsman upon a band of warrior witches from Gloucester, whom he slays with the help of Arthur and his knights.<br />
<br />
Roger Lancelyn Green, one of Greg Weisman's chief sources on the Arthurian legend, made some modifications to the story of Percival in his account of King Arthur and his knights. One was a hint that Percival was the son of Sir Gawain by Lady Ragnell, the Loathly Damsel whom he wed. Green was inspired by the similarity of Percival's story to the motif of the "Fair Unknown", a young man who grows up in obscurity but emerges from his remote dwelling-place to become a great knight; in most versions of this story, the "Fair Unknown" is Gawain's son. It is presumably from here that Weisman drew Peredur's patronymic of "fab Ragnal", Welsh for "son of Ragnal" ("Ragnal" is evidently a variant of "Ragnell", and it would be appropriate for Peredur to be linked to the mother who raised him). Green also depicted Blanchefleur as not merely a lady love of Percival's, as in Chretien, but as linked to the mysteries of the Holy Grail; at the end of the Grail Quest, they marry (Sir Galahad himself officiates at their wedding) and rule over Carbonek together (Green states that their kingdom survived the fall of Camelot "and made still a little light in the darkness" of post-Arthurian Britain), a concept which Greg Weisman followed in his interpretation of Blanchefleur as residing in Carbonek and, like Peredur, a high-ranking member of the Illuminati.<br />
<br />
Greg's choice of "Peredur" rather than "Percival" for this character may be part of the present custom among modern-day Arthurian writers to use the old Welsh names for the familiar figures of the Arthurian cycle, to link it more closely to its Dark Age roots (such as "Cai" for Kay, "Bedwyr" for Bedivere, "Medraut" for Mordred, etc.), though this is the first time that this practice has appeared in ''Gargoyles''.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Percival}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Humans]]<br />
[[Category:Illuminati]]<br />
[[Category:Real world characters]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Awakening_Part_Five&diff=40167Awakening Part Five2024-02-25T20:45:40Z<p>Merlyn: /* Quotes */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Awakening5.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Awakening: Part Five"''' is the fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the fifth episode of Season 1. It originally aired on October 28, 1994.<br />
<br />
* Producer: [[Frank Paur]]<br />
* Co-Producer: [[Greg Weisman]] (Uncredited)<br />
* Story: [[Eric Luke]], [[Michael Reaves]]<br />
* Teleplay: Michael Reaves<br />
* Story Edited by: Michael Reaves<br />
* Directed by: [[Kazuo Terada]], [[Takamitsu Kawamura]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Walt Disney Animation Japan]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: [[Studio Fuga]]<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Nakamura Production]], [[Studio Robin]], [[Light Foot]], [[Studio Cats]], [[Takahashi Production]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
==Main Plot==<br />
<br />
After [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] reveals to [[Goliath]] that the diskettes his [[clan]] "retrieved" never belonged to [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], Xanatos and Goliath's mate - who reveals her name as "[[Demona]]" - show their true colors, attacking the [[gargoyle]]s with the [[Steel Clan]], a team of gargoyle-shaped robots that were brought on-line thanks to the information on the stolen disks. The gargoyles manage to destroy the Steel Clan, and soon after, Elisa rescues Goliath from death at the hands of Demona. Goliath rescues Elisa when a stray rocket causes the tower on which she and Demona are standing on to collapse, leaving Demona to fall. Goliath then nearly kills Xanatos, but relents, allowing him to be arrested for receiving stolen goods. The castle is won, opening the way for a whole new adventure...<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
Demona destroys [[Fortress-1]], causing it to crash into the [[Hudson River]]. Elisa sees her and Goliath flying away from the wreck.<br />
<br />
The [[trio]] are successful in obtaining the disk from the [[Cyberbiotics Tower]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] run into some trouble when they are accosted by security guards in the [[labyrinth|underground base]], but they manage to escape with their disk.<br />
<br />
Goliath argues with Demona, realizing that she's not the same person he remembers. He leaves her to see Elisa. Demona permanently cuts herself off from Goliath.<br />
<br />
Demona reveals that she helped the [[Captain of the Guard|Captain]] with his plan to betray the castle, which led to the [[Wyvern Massacre]]. She rants that all [[human]]s should pay for the way gargoyles have been treated.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
<br />
At the [[Cyberbiotics]] tower, [[Brooklyn]], [[Broadway]], and [[Lexington]] are confronted by armed guards. The three gargoyles escape through the elevator shaft to the floor above. Broadway punches a hole through the floor and all three drop down through the ceiling of their original destination. Brooklyn grabs one of the frightened scientists and gets him to reveal the location of the disk they are looking for. Lexington obtains the disk as the guards try to enter the room. Broadway tosses a piece of heavy equipment through a window and the gargoyles make their escape through the resulting hole.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, the underground fortress receives word of the attack on the tower and unconfirmed reports of "monsters." The reports are soon confirmed when [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] approach a large steel door and are spotted on a security camera. Hudson is taken by surprise by the facility's guards and led inside at gunpoint. Bronx leaps in after him and the two fight with the guards. Hudson makes his way to a console. Puzzled by the various lights and buttons, he bangs his fist on the console in frustration, causing the disk to pop out. Hudson and Bronx leave and just make it through the rapidly closing steel doors. More guards approach and the gargoyle and the beast flee through an access shaft to a caged walkway above another subway tunnel. The guards pursue them. As the guards draw closer, Hudson pulls off a panel from the side of the walkway, grabs Bronx, and jumps down with him onto a passing subway train. The train exits the tunnel and Hudson takes off, still carrying Bronx. The two land awkwardly on a nearby roof and Hudson complains of Bronx's weight and the aches he'll be feeling after his adventures. He hopes the disk is worth it.<br />
<br />
High above the city, the airship [[Fortress-1]] has learned of the attacks on the other two Cyberbiotics bases and the loss of two-thirds of the data. [[Goliath]] kicks down the door to the control room and [[Demona|his mate]] informs the Cyberbiotics employees that they have now lost all of the data. While Goliath subdues the guards, his mate retrieves the disk, then pulls a cable out of the console and uses it to set the ship ablaze. Goliath is surprised by her actions and reluctant to leave the humans to their fates, but his mate pulls him out the door. Fortress-1 crashes into the river. [[Elisa Maza]] arrives on the scene just in time to see the two gargoyles flying away from the flaming wreck.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
Goliath and his mate return to the [[Eyrie Building]] and deliver the disk they retrieved to [[David Xanatos]], who promises to use the knowledge on the three discs for the benefit of both humans and gargoyles. Goliath tells his mate he is going to see a friend. Realizing that Goliath means a human, she protests. She tells Goliath that humans are their enemies and must pay for what happened to the [[Wyvern clan]] 1000 years ago. Goliath replies that the humans who massacred their clan are long dead and he cannot battle an entire world. He reflects sadly on how vicious and unforgiving his mate has become, not at all like the gargoyle he knew centuries ago. He leaves to meet with Elisa. Xanatos watches this unfold over a security feed and notes that Goliath is too difficult to control.<br />
<br />
Goliath arrives for his rooftop meeting with Elisa and she confronts him about the Cyberbiotics robberies. She hands him a paper with the insignia from the tracker she found on him and tells him it belongs to a company owned by Xanatos Enterprises. Elisa has also looked into the robberies and found that the disks the gargoyles took were Cyberbiotics property. The "theft" of the data from the Eyrie Building and the attack in the park, she surmises, were setups to convince Goliath and the gargoyles to help Xanatos steal the Cyberbiotics data. She asks Goliath to trust her and he signals his assent by crushing the paper.<br />
<br />
Back at the Eyrie Building, Xanatos stands before a line of sheet-covered figures. The gargoyles, he tells [[Owen Burnett|Owen]], seem to have outlived their usefulness and the data from the disks will let him activate their "replacements". Owen notes that sunrise will arrive in three hours, making disposing of the gargoyles an easy task. Stepping from the shadows, Goliath's mate points out that the replacements need a test run.<br />
<br />
Outside, [[Trio|the trio]] relax and enjoy the comforts of the 20th century: computers, sunglasses, and Chinese takeout. Broadway remarks that adjusting to this new time and place was tough at first, but everything seems fine now. He reconsiders as a box of takeout is blasted out of his hand. The blast comes from a [[Steel Clan|robotic gargoyle]], one of five standing behind Xanatos, Owen, and Goliath's mate. Xanatos orders the robots to attack. They dive-bomb the three young gargoyles. Broadway is knocked out of the air by their laser blasts. He attempts to grab onto the castle wall but the brick he is holding comes loose and he falls to the floor below, unconscious. As the fight continues, Xanatos points out the robots' advantages over the gargoyles: steel bodies, no need for sleep during the day, full flight capabilities versus gliding, and unquestioning loyalty. Lexington is shot out of the sky and Brooklyn catches him. One of the robots targets Brooklyn and Lexington, but Goliath soars in and tackles it, smashing it against one of the castle towers. Goliath takes the unconscious Lexington from Brooklyn and sets him down next to Broadway. The noise of the battle alerts Hudson and Bronx, who are soon under fire from another robot. Bronx grabs the robot by the tail and brings it to the ground, dodging its laser blasts until Hudson can dispatch it with his sword. In the skies above, Goliath gets on the back of one of the remaining robots and steers it into another, destroying both. As robot parts rain down, Xanatos comments that his "[[Steel Clan]]" is not faring so well. He, Owen, and Goliath's mate go back inside the castle to regroup.<br />
<br />
Broadway and Lexington regain consciousness just in time to avoid being blasted by the one remaining Steel Clan robot. As it flies towards them, Goliath and Brooklyn push an unstable piece of the castle tower down onto the robot, crushing it. They celebrate their victory, but the celebration is short-lived. Xanatos and Goliath's mate emerge from the castle with heavy weaponry. Goliath's mate takes aim at Goliath and Brooklyn and fires.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
<br />
The bazooka blast knocks the two gargoyles off the tower. Brooklyn lands near the rest of the clan while Goliath lands in front of his mate. The other gargoyles move to help Goliath, but Xanatos keeps them back with his weapon. Goliath's mate reveals that she conspired with the [[Captain of the Guard]] to betray [[Castle Wyvern]] a thousand years ago. Her plan was to have all the gargoyles go with Goliath, then return the following night to find the humans gone and take the castle for themselves. When Goliath instead went after the Vikings with only Hudson, Goliath's mate took action to save herself. She continues to hate humanity for how they treated the gargoyles and carries on her vendetta to this day. Goliath points out that the destruction of their clan would not have happened if not for her. She is angered, but gives him one last chance to join her. He says nothing and she fires her bazooka, knocking him to the ground. As she prepares to fire a final shot, she tells Goliath that the humans named her too, long ago. She is [[Demona]].<br />
<br />
Elisa, at the building on police business, charges into Demona, causing her shot to go wild. Xanatos is knocked out by falling debris. A massive piece of a tower falls close to Elisa and Demona, demolishing the walkway beneath them. Both fall from the castle. Goliath leaps into action, catches Elisa, and sets her down safely in the castle, but Demona falls to an unknown fate. Goliath roars in anguish. As Xanatos regains consciousness, Goliath picks him up by the collar and threatens to drop him off the castle. Xanatos snakily tells Goliath to "go ahead" and reminds him that the clan would never have awakened if not for him. Elisa and Hudson intervene and convince Goliath that vengeance isn't what he wants. Goliath tosses Xanatos aside.<br />
<br />
As dawn approaches, Xanatos is arrested. Goliath wonders if Demona might have survived and Hudson responds that if she did, they're sure to know about it before long. The gargoyles settle onto their perches for the day and Goliath agrees to meet Elisa again tomorrow. She jokingly suggests that they go to see a Giants game and Goliath freezes in stone with a confused expression on his face. Smiling, Elisa wonders if New York is ready for the gargoyles.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Character===<br />
* [[Cyberbiotics Commander]]<br />
* [[Fortress-1 Captain]]<br />
* [[Eyrie Building Security Guard]]<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Labyrinth|Cyberbiotics Underground Base]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Steel Clan]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Ach! I'm getting too old for this." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Ye need to be losing some weight, and that's a fact!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Rest assured that the knowledge on these disks will be put to beneficial use for humans and gargoyles alike." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I cannot make war upon an entire world!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "You said the centuries have changed me. They changed you too. You've become hard, unforgiving. You are not as I remember you." - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "But you've got to trust somebody in this world, and I think you'd be better off with me than Xanatos." - Elisa<br />
<br />
* "I'm afraid the gargoyles have outlived their usefulness. I can't count on their loyalty. But now with the data on those disks, I can bring their replacements on-line." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "You need to test these replacements, do you not?" - Demona<br />
<br />
* "We won, dude!"<br />
:"'Dude'?" - [[Brooklyn]] and Goliath<br />
<br />
* "Let's just let them play out their little drama, shall we?" - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "There is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "I have a name too, Goliath. The humans gave it to me long ago. You should know it before you die. I am Demona." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "She wanted me to destroy humanity. I think I'll start with you!"<br />
:"Go ahead. Without me, you'd still be gathering moss." - Goliath and Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "It's nice to know I have at least one human friend in this new world."<br />
:"I hope you have more, lots more. But whether you do or not, I'll always be your friend, Goliath." - Goliath and Elisa<br />
<br />
* "Good, maybe we'll catch a Giants game."<br />
:"Giants?!" - Elisa and Goliath<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
[[Hudson]]'s line "And they say the Middle Ages were barbaric!", while amusing, is (from a perspective of strict realism) questionable. The term "Middle Ages" only came into existence after the medieval period, as a way of describing (in a patronizing fashion) the period of history between the classical age of Greece and Rome and the rediscovery of its art and literature during the Renaissance. Nobody in 994 would have recognized the term. One could, of course, assume that Hudson had picked it up from some of his television watching (maybe a historical documentary), although it would have been fast work.<br />
<br />
The scarab logo of the robotics company owned by Xanatos that manufactured the tracer is that of the [[Scarab Corporation]], which was originally designed by the ''Gargoyles'' Production Team as one of the leading divisions of [[Xanatos Enterprises]], alongside [[PackMedia Studios]] and [[Gen-U-Tech Systems|Gen-U-Tech]]. However, it received far less attention than these other divisions, thanks to the fact that stories involving its products focused on the products themselves (such as [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]]) and did not involve the corporation staff at all (unlike stories featuring Gen-U-Tech, for example, where [[Anton Sevarius|Sevarius]] was certain to play a prominent role). We get another brief glance at that same logo in [[Legion|"Legion"]], and the firm is finally named "on-screen" and shown in [[Reunion|"Reunion"]].<br />
<br />
The scene where Demona reveals her name is another hint that she was lying about having been under the [[Magus]]' [[Sleep Spell|spell]] for the past thousand years like the rest of the clan. If she had actually been in [[Stone Sleep|stone sleep]] during that time, she would scarcely have had the opportunity to have gained it from a human "long ago".<br />
<br />
Demona's line of "1,000 years of solitude" is a reference to the title of ''One Hundred Years of Solitude'' by Gabriel García Márquez.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
When Demona fires her bazooka at Goliath, in the original it<br />
showed the bazooka light up right before cutting to commercial and now it<br />
just stops short to when Demona and Xanatos come out with rifles and goes to<br />
commercial.<br />
<br />
Also in the same episode, when Demona says "If you are not my ally then you<br />
are my enemy" you usually see her fire the bazooka head-on at the camera and<br />
then Goliath dodge the missile in the next scene. On Toon Disney, when<br />
Demona says her line, it cuts back to the scene of Goliath with tears in his<br />
eyes as you hear the bazooka fire and then goes to the scene of Goliath<br />
dodging the missile.<br />
<br />
==VHS/DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles The Movie: The Heroes Awaken]]''<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: The Complete First Season]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=52 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep05.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Awakening Part Four|<< Previous Episode: "Awakening: Part Four"]]''' <br />
| '''[[The Thrill of the Hunt|Next Episode: "The Thrill of the Hunt" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Awakening_Part_Five&diff=40166Awakening Part Five2024-02-25T20:45:01Z<p>Merlyn: /* Quotes */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Awakening5.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Awakening: Part Five"''' is the fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the fifth episode of Season 1. It originally aired on October 28, 1994.<br />
<br />
* Producer: [[Frank Paur]]<br />
* Co-Producer: [[Greg Weisman]] (Uncredited)<br />
* Story: [[Eric Luke]], [[Michael Reaves]]<br />
* Teleplay: Michael Reaves<br />
* Story Edited by: Michael Reaves<br />
* Directed by: [[Kazuo Terada]], [[Takamitsu Kawamura]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Walt Disney Animation Japan]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: [[Studio Fuga]]<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Nakamura Production]], [[Studio Robin]], [[Light Foot]], [[Studio Cats]], [[Takahashi Production]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
==Main Plot==<br />
<br />
After [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] reveals to [[Goliath]] that the diskettes his [[clan]] "retrieved" never belonged to [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], Xanatos and Goliath's mate - who reveals her name as "[[Demona]]" - show their true colors, attacking the [[gargoyle]]s with the [[Steel Clan]], a team of gargoyle-shaped robots that were brought on-line thanks to the information on the stolen disks. The gargoyles manage to destroy the Steel Clan, and soon after, Elisa rescues Goliath from death at the hands of Demona. Goliath rescues Elisa when a stray rocket causes the tower on which she and Demona are standing on to collapse, leaving Demona to fall. Goliath then nearly kills Xanatos, but relents, allowing him to be arrested for receiving stolen goods. The castle is won, opening the way for a whole new adventure...<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
Demona destroys [[Fortress-1]], causing it to crash into the [[Hudson River]]. Elisa sees her and Goliath flying away from the wreck.<br />
<br />
The [[trio]] are successful in obtaining the disk from the [[Cyberbiotics Tower]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] run into some trouble when they are accosted by security guards in the [[labyrinth|underground base]], but they manage to escape with their disk.<br />
<br />
Goliath argues with Demona, realizing that she's not the same person he remembers. He leaves her to see Elisa. Demona permanently cuts herself off from Goliath.<br />
<br />
Demona reveals that she helped the [[Captain of the Guard|Captain]] with his plan to betray the castle, which led to the [[Wyvern Massacre]]. She rants that all [[human]]s should pay for the way gargoyles have been treated.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
<br />
At the [[Cyberbiotics]] tower, [[Brooklyn]], [[Broadway]], and [[Lexington]] are confronted by armed guards. The three gargoyles escape through the elevator shaft to the floor above. Broadway punches a hole through the floor and all three drop down through the ceiling of their original destination. Brooklyn grabs one of the frightened scientists and gets him to reveal the location of the disk they are looking for. Lexington obtains the disk as the guards try to enter the room. Broadway tosses a piece of heavy equipment through a window and the gargoyles make their escape through the resulting hole.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, the underground fortress receives word of the attack on the tower and unconfirmed reports of "monsters." The reports are soon confirmed when [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] approach a large steel door and are spotted on a security camera. Hudson is taken by surprise by the facility's guards and led inside at gunpoint. Bronx leaps in after him and the two fight with the guards. Hudson makes his way to a console. Puzzled by the various lights and buttons, he bangs his fist on the console in frustration, causing the disk to pop out. Hudson and Bronx leave and just make it through the rapidly closing steel doors. More guards approach and the gargoyle and the beast flee through an access shaft to a caged walkway above another subway tunnel. The guards pursue them. As the guards draw closer, Hudson pulls off a panel from the side of the walkway, grabs Bronx, and jumps down with him onto a passing subway train. The train exits the tunnel and Hudson takes off, still carrying Bronx. The two land awkwardly on a nearby roof and Hudson complains of Bronx's weight and the aches he'll be feeling after his adventures. He hopes the disk is worth it.<br />
<br />
High above the city, the airship [[Fortress-1]] has learned of the attacks on the other two Cyberbiotics bases and the loss of two-thirds of the data. [[Goliath]] kicks down the door to the control room and [[Demona|his mate]] informs the Cyberbiotics employees that they have now lost all of the data. While Goliath subdues the guards, his mate retrieves the disk, then pulls a cable out of the console and uses it to set the ship ablaze. Goliath is surprised by her actions and reluctant to leave the humans to their fates, but his mate pulls him out the door. Fortress-1 crashes into the river. [[Elisa Maza]] arrives on the scene just in time to see the two gargoyles flying away from the flaming wreck.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
Goliath and his mate return to the [[Eyrie Building]] and deliver the disk they retrieved to [[David Xanatos]], who promises to use the knowledge on the three discs for the benefit of both humans and gargoyles. Goliath tells his mate he is going to see a friend. Realizing that Goliath means a human, she protests. She tells Goliath that humans are their enemies and must pay for what happened to the [[Wyvern clan]] 1000 years ago. Goliath replies that the humans who massacred their clan are long dead and he cannot battle an entire world. He reflects sadly on how vicious and unforgiving his mate has become, not at all like the gargoyle he knew centuries ago. He leaves to meet with Elisa. Xanatos watches this unfold over a security feed and notes that Goliath is too difficult to control.<br />
<br />
Goliath arrives for his rooftop meeting with Elisa and she confronts him about the Cyberbiotics robberies. She hands him a paper with the insignia from the tracker she found on him and tells him it belongs to a company owned by Xanatos Enterprises. Elisa has also looked into the robberies and found that the disks the gargoyles took were Cyberbiotics property. The "theft" of the data from the Eyrie Building and the attack in the park, she surmises, were setups to convince Goliath and the gargoyles to help Xanatos steal the Cyberbiotics data. She asks Goliath to trust her and he signals his assent by crushing the paper.<br />
<br />
Back at the Eyrie Building, Xanatos stands before a line of sheet-covered figures. The gargoyles, he tells [[Owen Burnett|Owen]], seem to have outlived their usefulness and the data from the disks will let him activate their "replacements". Owen notes that sunrise will arrive in three hours, making disposing of the gargoyles an easy task. Stepping from the shadows, Goliath's mate points out that the replacements need a test run.<br />
<br />
Outside, [[Trio|the trio]] relax and enjoy the comforts of the 20th century: computers, sunglasses, and Chinese takeout. Broadway remarks that adjusting to this new time and place was tough at first, but everything seems fine now. He reconsiders as a box of takeout is blasted out of his hand. The blast comes from a [[Steel Clan|robotic gargoyle]], one of five standing behind Xanatos, Owen, and Goliath's mate. Xanatos orders the robots to attack. They dive-bomb the three young gargoyles. Broadway is knocked out of the air by their laser blasts. He attempts to grab onto the castle wall but the brick he is holding comes loose and he falls to the floor below, unconscious. As the fight continues, Xanatos points out the robots' advantages over the gargoyles: steel bodies, no need for sleep during the day, full flight capabilities versus gliding, and unquestioning loyalty. Lexington is shot out of the sky and Brooklyn catches him. One of the robots targets Brooklyn and Lexington, but Goliath soars in and tackles it, smashing it against one of the castle towers. Goliath takes the unconscious Lexington from Brooklyn and sets him down next to Broadway. The noise of the battle alerts Hudson and Bronx, who are soon under fire from another robot. Bronx grabs the robot by the tail and brings it to the ground, dodging its laser blasts until Hudson can dispatch it with his sword. In the skies above, Goliath gets on the back of one of the remaining robots and steers it into another, destroying both. As robot parts rain down, Xanatos comments that his "[[Steel Clan]]" is not faring so well. He, Owen, and Goliath's mate go back inside the castle to regroup.<br />
<br />
Broadway and Lexington regain consciousness just in time to avoid being blasted by the one remaining Steel Clan robot. As it flies towards them, Goliath and Brooklyn push an unstable piece of the castle tower down onto the robot, crushing it. They celebrate their victory, but the celebration is short-lived. Xanatos and Goliath's mate emerge from the castle with heavy weaponry. Goliath's mate takes aim at Goliath and Brooklyn and fires.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
<br />
The bazooka blast knocks the two gargoyles off the tower. Brooklyn lands near the rest of the clan while Goliath lands in front of his mate. The other gargoyles move to help Goliath, but Xanatos keeps them back with his weapon. Goliath's mate reveals that she conspired with the [[Captain of the Guard]] to betray [[Castle Wyvern]] a thousand years ago. Her plan was to have all the gargoyles go with Goliath, then return the following night to find the humans gone and take the castle for themselves. When Goliath instead went after the Vikings with only Hudson, Goliath's mate took action to save herself. She continues to hate humanity for how they treated the gargoyles and carries on her vendetta to this day. Goliath points out that the destruction of their clan would not have happened if not for her. She is angered, but gives him one last chance to join her. He says nothing and she fires her bazooka, knocking him to the ground. As she prepares to fire a final shot, she tells Goliath that the humans named her too, long ago. She is [[Demona]].<br />
<br />
Elisa, at the building on police business, charges into Demona, causing her shot to go wild. Xanatos is knocked out by falling debris. A massive piece of a tower falls close to Elisa and Demona, demolishing the walkway beneath them. Both fall from the castle. Goliath leaps into action, catches Elisa, and sets her down safely in the castle, but Demona falls to an unknown fate. Goliath roars in anguish. As Xanatos regains consciousness, Goliath picks him up by the collar and threatens to drop him off the castle. Xanatos snakily tells Goliath to "go ahead" and reminds him that the clan would never have awakened if not for him. Elisa and Hudson intervene and convince Goliath that vengeance isn't what he wants. Goliath tosses Xanatos aside.<br />
<br />
As dawn approaches, Xanatos is arrested. Goliath wonders if Demona might have survived and Hudson responds that if she did, they're sure to know about it before long. The gargoyles settle onto their perches for the day and Goliath agrees to meet Elisa again tomorrow. She jokingly suggests that they go to see a Giants game and Goliath freezes in stone with a confused expression on his face. Smiling, Elisa wonders if New York is ready for the gargoyles.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Character===<br />
* [[Cyberbiotics Commander]]<br />
* [[Fortress-1 Captain]]<br />
* [[Eyrie Building Security Guard]]<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Labyrinth|Cyberbiotics Underground Base]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Steel Clan]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Ach! I'm getting too old for this." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Ye need to be losing some weight, and that's a fact!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Rest assured that the knowledge on these disks will be put to beneficial use for humans and gargoyles alike." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I cannot make war upon an entire world!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "You said the centuries have changed me. They changed you too. You've become hard, unforgiving. You are not as I remember you." - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "But you've got to trust somebody in this world, and I think you'd be better off with me than Xanatos." - Elisa<br />
<br />
* "I'm afraid the gargoyles have outlived their usefulness. I can't count on their loyalty. But now with the data on those disks, I can bring their replacements on-line." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "You need to test these replacements, do you not?" - Demona<br />
<br />
* "We won, dude!"<br />
:"'Dude?'" - [[Brooklyn]] and Goliath<br />
<br />
* "Let's just let them play out their little drama, shall we?" - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "There is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "I have a name too, Goliath. The humans gave it to me long ago. You should know it before you die. I am Demona." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "She wanted me to destroy humanity. I think I'll start with you!"<br />
:"Go ahead. Without me, you'd still be gathering moss." - Goliath and Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "It's nice to know I have at least one human friend in this new world."<br />
:"I hope you have more, lots more. But whether you do or not, I'll always be your friend Goliath." - Goliath and Elisa<br />
<br />
* "Good, maybe we'll catch a Giants game."<br />
:"Giants?!" - Elisa and Goliath<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
[[Hudson]]'s line "And they say the Middle Ages were barbaric!", while amusing, is (from a perspective of strict realism) questionable. The term "Middle Ages" only came into existence after the medieval period, as a way of describing (in a patronizing fashion) the period of history between the classical age of Greece and Rome and the rediscovery of its art and literature during the Renaissance. Nobody in 994 would have recognized the term. One could, of course, assume that Hudson had picked it up from some of his television watching (maybe a historical documentary), although it would have been fast work.<br />
<br />
The scarab logo of the robotics company owned by Xanatos that manufactured the tracer is that of the [[Scarab Corporation]], which was originally designed by the ''Gargoyles'' Production Team as one of the leading divisions of [[Xanatos Enterprises]], alongside [[PackMedia Studios]] and [[Gen-U-Tech Systems|Gen-U-Tech]]. However, it received far less attention than these other divisions, thanks to the fact that stories involving its products focused on the products themselves (such as [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]]) and did not involve the corporation staff at all (unlike stories featuring Gen-U-Tech, for example, where [[Anton Sevarius|Sevarius]] was certain to play a prominent role). We get another brief glance at that same logo in [[Legion|"Legion"]], and the firm is finally named "on-screen" and shown in [[Reunion|"Reunion"]].<br />
<br />
The scene where Demona reveals her name is another hint that she was lying about having been under the [[Magus]]' [[Sleep Spell|spell]] for the past thousand years like the rest of the clan. If she had actually been in [[Stone Sleep|stone sleep]] during that time, she would scarcely have had the opportunity to have gained it from a human "long ago".<br />
<br />
Demona's line of "1,000 years of solitude" is a reference to the title of ''One Hundred Years of Solitude'' by Gabriel García Márquez.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
When Demona fires her bazooka at Goliath, in the original it<br />
showed the bazooka light up right before cutting to commercial and now it<br />
just stops short to when Demona and Xanatos come out with rifles and goes to<br />
commercial.<br />
<br />
Also in the same episode, when Demona says "If you are not my ally then you<br />
are my enemy" you usually see her fire the bazooka head-on at the camera and<br />
then Goliath dodge the missile in the next scene. On Toon Disney, when<br />
Demona says her line, it cuts back to the scene of Goliath with tears in his<br />
eyes as you hear the bazooka fire and then goes to the scene of Goliath<br />
dodging the missile.<br />
<br />
==VHS/DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles The Movie: The Heroes Awaken]]''<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: The Complete First Season]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=52 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep05.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Awakening Part Four|<< Previous Episode: "Awakening: Part Four"]]''' <br />
| '''[[The Thrill of the Hunt|Next Episode: "The Thrill of the Hunt" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Awakening_Part_Five&diff=40165Awakening Part Five2024-02-25T20:44:37Z<p>Merlyn: /* Quotes */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Awakening5.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Awakening: Part Five"''' is the fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the fifth episode of Season 1. It originally aired on October 28, 1994.<br />
<br />
* Producer: [[Frank Paur]]<br />
* Co-Producer: [[Greg Weisman]] (Uncredited)<br />
* Story: [[Eric Luke]], [[Michael Reaves]]<br />
* Teleplay: Michael Reaves<br />
* Story Edited by: Michael Reaves<br />
* Directed by: [[Kazuo Terada]], [[Takamitsu Kawamura]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Walt Disney Animation Japan]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: [[Studio Fuga]]<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Nakamura Production]], [[Studio Robin]], [[Light Foot]], [[Studio Cats]], [[Takahashi Production]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
==Main Plot==<br />
<br />
After [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] reveals to [[Goliath]] that the diskettes his [[clan]] "retrieved" never belonged to [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], Xanatos and Goliath's mate - who reveals her name as "[[Demona]]" - show their true colors, attacking the [[gargoyle]]s with the [[Steel Clan]], a team of gargoyle-shaped robots that were brought on-line thanks to the information on the stolen disks. The gargoyles manage to destroy the Steel Clan, and soon after, Elisa rescues Goliath from death at the hands of Demona. Goliath rescues Elisa when a stray rocket causes the tower on which she and Demona are standing on to collapse, leaving Demona to fall. Goliath then nearly kills Xanatos, but relents, allowing him to be arrested for receiving stolen goods. The castle is won, opening the way for a whole new adventure...<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
Demona destroys [[Fortress-1]], causing it to crash into the [[Hudson River]]. Elisa sees her and Goliath flying away from the wreck.<br />
<br />
The [[trio]] are successful in obtaining the disk from the [[Cyberbiotics Tower]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] run into some trouble when they are accosted by security guards in the [[labyrinth|underground base]], but they manage to escape with their disk.<br />
<br />
Goliath argues with Demona, realizing that she's not the same person he remembers. He leaves her to see Elisa. Demona permanently cuts herself off from Goliath.<br />
<br />
Demona reveals that she helped the [[Captain of the Guard|Captain]] with his plan to betray the castle, which led to the [[Wyvern Massacre]]. She rants that all [[human]]s should pay for the way gargoyles have been treated.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
<br />
At the [[Cyberbiotics]] tower, [[Brooklyn]], [[Broadway]], and [[Lexington]] are confronted by armed guards. The three gargoyles escape through the elevator shaft to the floor above. Broadway punches a hole through the floor and all three drop down through the ceiling of their original destination. Brooklyn grabs one of the frightened scientists and gets him to reveal the location of the disk they are looking for. Lexington obtains the disk as the guards try to enter the room. Broadway tosses a piece of heavy equipment through a window and the gargoyles make their escape through the resulting hole.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, the underground fortress receives word of the attack on the tower and unconfirmed reports of "monsters." The reports are soon confirmed when [[Hudson]] and [[Bronx]] approach a large steel door and are spotted on a security camera. Hudson is taken by surprise by the facility's guards and led inside at gunpoint. Bronx leaps in after him and the two fight with the guards. Hudson makes his way to a console. Puzzled by the various lights and buttons, he bangs his fist on the console in frustration, causing the disk to pop out. Hudson and Bronx leave and just make it through the rapidly closing steel doors. More guards approach and the gargoyle and the beast flee through an access shaft to a caged walkway above another subway tunnel. The guards pursue them. As the guards draw closer, Hudson pulls off a panel from the side of the walkway, grabs Bronx, and jumps down with him onto a passing subway train. The train exits the tunnel and Hudson takes off, still carrying Bronx. The two land awkwardly on a nearby roof and Hudson complains of Bronx's weight and the aches he'll be feeling after his adventures. He hopes the disk is worth it.<br />
<br />
High above the city, the airship [[Fortress-1]] has learned of the attacks on the other two Cyberbiotics bases and the loss of two-thirds of the data. [[Goliath]] kicks down the door to the control room and [[Demona|his mate]] informs the Cyberbiotics employees that they have now lost all of the data. While Goliath subdues the guards, his mate retrieves the disk, then pulls a cable out of the console and uses it to set the ship ablaze. Goliath is surprised by her actions and reluctant to leave the humans to their fates, but his mate pulls him out the door. Fortress-1 crashes into the river. [[Elisa Maza]] arrives on the scene just in time to see the two gargoyles flying away from the flaming wreck.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
Goliath and his mate return to the [[Eyrie Building]] and deliver the disk they retrieved to [[David Xanatos]], who promises to use the knowledge on the three discs for the benefit of both humans and gargoyles. Goliath tells his mate he is going to see a friend. Realizing that Goliath means a human, she protests. She tells Goliath that humans are their enemies and must pay for what happened to the [[Wyvern clan]] 1000 years ago. Goliath replies that the humans who massacred their clan are long dead and he cannot battle an entire world. He reflects sadly on how vicious and unforgiving his mate has become, not at all like the gargoyle he knew centuries ago. He leaves to meet with Elisa. Xanatos watches this unfold over a security feed and notes that Goliath is too difficult to control.<br />
<br />
Goliath arrives for his rooftop meeting with Elisa and she confronts him about the Cyberbiotics robberies. She hands him a paper with the insignia from the tracker she found on him and tells him it belongs to a company owned by Xanatos Enterprises. Elisa has also looked into the robberies and found that the disks the gargoyles took were Cyberbiotics property. The "theft" of the data from the Eyrie Building and the attack in the park, she surmises, were setups to convince Goliath and the gargoyles to help Xanatos steal the Cyberbiotics data. She asks Goliath to trust her and he signals his assent by crushing the paper.<br />
<br />
Back at the Eyrie Building, Xanatos stands before a line of sheet-covered figures. The gargoyles, he tells [[Owen Burnett|Owen]], seem to have outlived their usefulness and the data from the disks will let him activate their "replacements". Owen notes that sunrise will arrive in three hours, making disposing of the gargoyles an easy task. Stepping from the shadows, Goliath's mate points out that the replacements need a test run.<br />
<br />
Outside, [[Trio|the trio]] relax and enjoy the comforts of the 20th century: computers, sunglasses, and Chinese takeout. Broadway remarks that adjusting to this new time and place was tough at first, but everything seems fine now. He reconsiders as a box of takeout is blasted out of his hand. The blast comes from a [[Steel Clan|robotic gargoyle]], one of five standing behind Xanatos, Owen, and Goliath's mate. Xanatos orders the robots to attack. They dive-bomb the three young gargoyles. Broadway is knocked out of the air by their laser blasts. He attempts to grab onto the castle wall but the brick he is holding comes loose and he falls to the floor below, unconscious. As the fight continues, Xanatos points out the robots' advantages over the gargoyles: steel bodies, no need for sleep during the day, full flight capabilities versus gliding, and unquestioning loyalty. Lexington is shot out of the sky and Brooklyn catches him. One of the robots targets Brooklyn and Lexington, but Goliath soars in and tackles it, smashing it against one of the castle towers. Goliath takes the unconscious Lexington from Brooklyn and sets him down next to Broadway. The noise of the battle alerts Hudson and Bronx, who are soon under fire from another robot. Bronx grabs the robot by the tail and brings it to the ground, dodging its laser blasts until Hudson can dispatch it with his sword. In the skies above, Goliath gets on the back of one of the remaining robots and steers it into another, destroying both. As robot parts rain down, Xanatos comments that his "[[Steel Clan]]" is not faring so well. He, Owen, and Goliath's mate go back inside the castle to regroup.<br />
<br />
Broadway and Lexington regain consciousness just in time to avoid being blasted by the one remaining Steel Clan robot. As it flies towards them, Goliath and Brooklyn push an unstable piece of the castle tower down onto the robot, crushing it. They celebrate their victory, but the celebration is short-lived. Xanatos and Goliath's mate emerge from the castle with heavy weaponry. Goliath's mate takes aim at Goliath and Brooklyn and fires.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
<br />
The bazooka blast knocks the two gargoyles off the tower. Brooklyn lands near the rest of the clan while Goliath lands in front of his mate. The other gargoyles move to help Goliath, but Xanatos keeps them back with his weapon. Goliath's mate reveals that she conspired with the [[Captain of the Guard]] to betray [[Castle Wyvern]] a thousand years ago. Her plan was to have all the gargoyles go with Goliath, then return the following night to find the humans gone and take the castle for themselves. When Goliath instead went after the Vikings with only Hudson, Goliath's mate took action to save herself. She continues to hate humanity for how they treated the gargoyles and carries on her vendetta to this day. Goliath points out that the destruction of their clan would not have happened if not for her. She is angered, but gives him one last chance to join her. He says nothing and she fires her bazooka, knocking him to the ground. As she prepares to fire a final shot, she tells Goliath that the humans named her too, long ago. She is [[Demona]].<br />
<br />
Elisa, at the building on police business, charges into Demona, causing her shot to go wild. Xanatos is knocked out by falling debris. A massive piece of a tower falls close to Elisa and Demona, demolishing the walkway beneath them. Both fall from the castle. Goliath leaps into action, catches Elisa, and sets her down safely in the castle, but Demona falls to an unknown fate. Goliath roars in anguish. As Xanatos regains consciousness, Goliath picks him up by the collar and threatens to drop him off the castle. Xanatos snakily tells Goliath to "go ahead" and reminds him that the clan would never have awakened if not for him. Elisa and Hudson intervene and convince Goliath that vengeance isn't what he wants. Goliath tosses Xanatos aside.<br />
<br />
As dawn approaches, Xanatos is arrested. Goliath wonders if Demona might have survived and Hudson responds that if she did, they're sure to know about it before long. The gargoyles settle onto their perches for the day and Goliath agrees to meet Elisa again tomorrow. She jokingly suggests that they go to see a Giants game and Goliath freezes in stone with a confused expression on his face. Smiling, Elisa wonders if New York is ready for the gargoyles.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Character===<br />
* [[Cyberbiotics Commander]]<br />
* [[Fortress-1 Captain]]<br />
* [[Eyrie Building Security Guard]]<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Labyrinth|Cyberbiotics Underground Base]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Steel Clan]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Ach! I'm getting too old for this." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Ye need to be losing some weight, and that's a fact!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Rest assured that the knowledge on these disks will be put to beneficial use for humans and gargoyles alike." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I cannot make war upon an entire world!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "You said the centuries have changed me. They changed you too. You've become hard, unforgiving. You are not as I remember you." - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "But you've got to trust somebody in this world, and I think you'd be better off with me than Xanatos." - Elisa<br />
<br />
* "I"m afraid the gargoyles have outlived their usefulness. I can't count on their loyalty. But now with the data on those disks, I can bring their replacements on-line." - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "You need to test these replacements, do you not?" - Demona<br />
<br />
* "We won, dude!"<br />
:"'Dude?'" - [[Brooklyn]] and Goliath<br />
<br />
* "Let's just let them play out their little drama, shall we?" - Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "There is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike!" - Goliath<br />
<br />
* "I have a name too, Goliath. The humans gave it to me long ago. You should know it before you die. I am Demona." - Demona<br />
<br />
* "She wanted me to destroy humanity. I think I'll start with you!"<br />
:"Go ahead. Without me, you'd still be gathering moss." - Goliath and Xanatos<br />
<br />
* "It's nice to know I have at least one human friend in this new world."<br />
:"I hope you have more, lots more. But whether you do or not, I'll always be your friend Goliath." - Goliath and Elisa<br />
<br />
* "Good, maybe we'll catch a Giants game."<br />
:"Giants?!" - Elisa and Goliath<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
[[Hudson]]'s line "And they say the Middle Ages were barbaric!", while amusing, is (from a perspective of strict realism) questionable. The term "Middle Ages" only came into existence after the medieval period, as a way of describing (in a patronizing fashion) the period of history between the classical age of Greece and Rome and the rediscovery of its art and literature during the Renaissance. Nobody in 994 would have recognized the term. One could, of course, assume that Hudson had picked it up from some of his television watching (maybe a historical documentary), although it would have been fast work.<br />
<br />
The scarab logo of the robotics company owned by Xanatos that manufactured the tracer is that of the [[Scarab Corporation]], which was originally designed by the ''Gargoyles'' Production Team as one of the leading divisions of [[Xanatos Enterprises]], alongside [[PackMedia Studios]] and [[Gen-U-Tech Systems|Gen-U-Tech]]. However, it received far less attention than these other divisions, thanks to the fact that stories involving its products focused on the products themselves (such as [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]]) and did not involve the corporation staff at all (unlike stories featuring Gen-U-Tech, for example, where [[Anton Sevarius|Sevarius]] was certain to play a prominent role). We get another brief glance at that same logo in [[Legion|"Legion"]], and the firm is finally named "on-screen" and shown in [[Reunion|"Reunion"]].<br />
<br />
The scene where Demona reveals her name is another hint that she was lying about having been under the [[Magus]]' [[Sleep Spell|spell]] for the past thousand years like the rest of the clan. If she had actually been in [[Stone Sleep|stone sleep]] during that time, she would scarcely have had the opportunity to have gained it from a human "long ago".<br />
<br />
Demona's line of "1,000 years of solitude" is a reference to the title of ''One Hundred Years of Solitude'' by Gabriel García Márquez.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
When Demona fires her bazooka at Goliath, in the original it<br />
showed the bazooka light up right before cutting to commercial and now it<br />
just stops short to when Demona and Xanatos come out with rifles and goes to<br />
commercial.<br />
<br />
Also in the same episode, when Demona says "If you are not my ally then you<br />
are my enemy" you usually see her fire the bazooka head-on at the camera and<br />
then Goliath dodge the missile in the next scene. On Toon Disney, when<br />
Demona says her line, it cuts back to the scene of Goliath with tears in his<br />
eyes as you hear the bazooka fire and then goes to the scene of Goliath<br />
dodging the missile.<br />
<br />
==VHS/DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles The Movie: The Heroes Awaken]]''<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: The Complete First Season]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=52 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep05.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Awakening Part Four|<< Previous Episode: "Awakening: Part Four"]]''' <br />
| '''[[The Thrill of the Hunt|Next Episode: "The Thrill of the Hunt" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Stone_of_Destiny&diff=40158Stone of Destiny2024-02-23T02:09:34Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:StoneofDestiny.png|thumb|360px|The Stone of Destiny]]<br />
[[Image:StoneofDestiny2.png|thumb|360px|The Stone of Destiny communes with Macbeth, David Xanatos, Arthur Pendragon, and Peredur fab Ragnal]]<br />
<br />
The '''Stone of Destiny''' (also known as '''Jacob's Pillow''', the Hebrews' '''Sacred Stone''', the '''Lia Fáil''' and the '''Stone of Scone''') is a great stone upon which the Kings of [[Scotland]], including [[Constantine III]] in [[Timeline#995-1994|995]] and [[Macbeth]] in [[Timeline#995-1994|1040]], were traditionally crowned. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
According to legend, the Stone of Destiny was used by [[Jacob]] as a pillow when he camped at [[Bethel]], while fleeing from [[Esau]] after tricking the latter out of his birthright; as he slept, he had a vision of stairs leading up to Heaven and [[angel]]s ascending and descending. The stone became a sacred object to the Hebrews, and entered their keeping until the time of the Exodus, when [[Moses]] entrusted it to the Athenian prince [[Gathelus]] and his wife [[Scota]], urging them to flee [[Egypt]] in order to escape the Ten Plagues. They took the Stone with them on their various journeys, first to [[Samothrace]], then [[Portugal]] (where Gathelus died), and finally [[Ireland]], where Scota was slain in battle with the inhabitants; her eldest son, [[Eremon]], was crowned upon the Stone at [[Tara]]. ''([[The Rock|"The Rock"]])''<br />
<br />
An alternate version of the story claims that Moses and the Hebrews kept the Stone during the [[Exodus]], and that it was the very stone that Moses struck to provide the Hebrews with water when they were thirsty. Many centuries later, the prophet [[Jeremiah]] and Princess [[Tamar Tea Tephi]] of Judah brought the Stone with them to Ireland, where Jeremiah gave it to King [[Eochaid]] as Tamar's dowry. Eochaid set up the Stone at Tara and called it the Lia Fáil. The true nature of the Stone of Destiny (see below) suggests that these stories are not mutually exclusive. ''([[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]])''<br />
<br />
A few centuries later, [[Cu Chullain]] angrily split the Lia Fáil in half after it refused to acknowledge his friend, [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]], as King of Ireland. Around the year [[Timeline#Before 994|500]], the Irish prince [[Fergus]] took one half of the Stone with him to Scotland to found the kingdom of [[Dalriada]], but during his journey, was brought to [[Castle Carbonek]], where he met [[Merlin]] and [[Pelles|King Pelles]]. They persuaded him to lend them the Stone, which they took to [[London]] town; there, the young [[King Arthur Pendragon|Arthur Pendragon]] drew [[Excalibur]] from it and was crowned High King of Britain. ''("Rock & Roll")''<br />
<br />
After Arthur's coronation, Merlin and Pelles returned the Stone to [[Iona]]; [[Saint Columba|St. Columba]] died there resting his head upon the Stone. In [[Timeline#Before 994|843]], [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] was crowned upon the Stone at [[Scone]] as the first King of Scotland; thereafter, the Stone was used for the coronation of every new king of Scotland (including [[Indulf]], [[Constantine III]] and [[Macbeth]]) until [[Timeline#995-1994|1296]], it was captured by King [[Edward I]] of [[England]] ([[Timeline#995-1994|1272-1307]]) in his invasion of Scotland, and removed to [[Westminster Abbey]] in [[London]], where it was placed underneath the Coronation Chair. After the [[Battle of Bannockburn]], [[Robert the Bruce]] gave a piece of it to his Irish ally, [[Cormac Maccarthy]], who took it back home with him; it became the [[Blarney Stone]]. In [[Timeline#995-1994|1950]], on Christmas Day, a group of Scottish patriots, including Macbeth, stole the Stone from Westminster Abbey, but inadvertently broke it in half in the process. They took it to [[Arbroath Abbey]], where Macbeth tried mending it, only to be told by the Stone that while it appreciated his care about the damage, the overall act of seizure was pointless. Soon afterwards, the Stone was returned to Westminster Abbey. ''([[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]], "The Rock", "Rock & Roll", [[The Reach|"The Reach"]])''<br />
<br />
When King Arthur came to London in early [[Timeline#1996|1996]], following his awakening upon [[Avalon]], he and [[Griff]] encountered the Stone of Destiny at Westminster Abbey. The Stone spoke, telling Arthur that he must prove himself once more worthy of Excalibur, and [[Harmonic Convergence|sent]] him and Griff to [[New York City]] for that task. ''([[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]])''<br />
<br />
Later that year, in November, the Stone was officially returned to Scotland. The [[Illuminati]] instructed [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]] to steal the Stone for them; Xanatos recruited [[Coldsteel]] to assist him, teaming him up with [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], a [[Steel Clan]] robot, and an [[Iron Clan]] robot. Macbeth and King Arthur sought to foil Xanatos, with the aid of [[Hudson]], [[Lexington]], Griff, [[Constance]], [[Staghart]], [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]]. While they defeated Xanatos's agents, Xanatos stole the Stone at Coldstream Bridge, substituting a duplicate stone. He then turned it over to [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]], who took it to Castle Carbonek to present to [[Peredur fab Ragnal|Peredur]]. There, however, the Stone spoke to Peredur, telling him that the stone was just a mouthpiece for its true nature, the [[Spirit of Destiny]], a force too powerful for any mortal to possess or command. It also informed Peredur and Blanchefleur of Arthur's awakening on Avalon. After Peredur left to inform the upper echelon members of this unexpected development, the Stone and the [[Holy Grail]] exchanged greetings. ''("The Rock", "Rock & Roll", [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
[[Image:RealStoneofDestiny.jpg|thumb|360px|The Stone of Destiny]]<br />
The '''Stone of Destiny''', more commonly known as the '''Stone of Scone''', is a real object. Legend claims that it originally came from Ireland, where it was known as the Lia Fáil and kept at Tara, the traditional stronghold of the Irish High Kings. It would scream aloud whenever the rightful High King of Ireland stepped upon it. Some legends state that it was first discovered by the legendary King Conn of the Hundred Battles, or that it was brought by the Tuatha Danaan (the Irish faerie-folk) from the city of Falias (one of the four cities that they originally dwelt in before coming to Ireland); others, influenced by Christianity, make it Jacob's pillow-stone at Bethel – as per the account given in "The Rock" – brought to Ireland either by Scota or by an eastern princess named Tea in 585 B.C. (both versions alluded to in the comics).<br />
<br />
The Stone of Destiny was removed from Ireland, according to legend, in the early 6th century, when it was loaned to the rulers of Dalriada, a kingdom established by Irish settlers in what is now Argyll, Scotland, who never returned it. They kept it at Iona, their sacred center, until 843, when Kenneth mac Alpin, then King of the Scots of Dalriada, seized control of Scotland from the Picts and became the first King of Scotland. Kenneth then moved the Stone to Scone, where it remained until King Edward I took it to England in 1296. It remained in Westminster Abbey (except for the 1950 theft) until 1996, when it was returned to Scotland and kept with the Scottish Crown Jewels in [[Edinburgh Castle]].<br />
<br />
The Stone will return to Westminster Abbey for the coronation of Charles III, after which there are plans for it to be relocated to Perth by 2024, according to Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. [https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18964905.stone-destiny-return-spiritual-home-perth/][https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-62875378]<br />
<br />
The Stone of Scone was indeed part of the coronation ritual of the Kings of Scotland, as per the series.<br />
<br />
The Stone of Destiny's identification with the very stone that King Arthur pulled his sword from is an invention of the series, although many Arthurian scholars believe that the two stones might be thematically linked. This is the only part of the Stone's legendary history narrated by [[Shari]] in the comic book which was Greg Weisman's invention.<br />
<br />
In its grand speech at the end of "Rock of Ages", the Stone listed its various aliases. Many of these were actual names applied to the Stone over the centuries, but there are a few exceptions. Among these:<br />
<br />
* The Stone of Mora, upon which the kings of Sweden were crowned until the 15th century.<br />
<br />
* The Philosopher's Stone, a legendary stone sought by alchemists which could transform lead into gold (and which has received fresh publicity in recent years by being a major part of J. K. Rowling's first ''Harry Potter'' novel – in the U.K. editions, since the U.S. editions call it the "Sorcerer's Stone").<br />
<br />
* The Burden of Sisyphus. In Greek mythology, Sisyphus was a cunning king who repeatedly found various ways of cheating death (at one point, tricking the death-god Thanatos into being chained up by him, resulting in a world in which no one could die – like the [[Emir]]'s imprisoning [[Anubis]] in [[Grief|"Grief"]] – until Ares, the god of war, exasperated with how ridiculous battles had become when nobody could be slain in them, set Thanatos free). When he finally died for good, Hades, the god of the underworld, condemned him to push a mighty boulder up a hill for eternity; whenever Sisyphus almost reached the top of the hill, the boulder would slip from his hands and roll down to the foot of the hill, forcing him to start all over again – thus keeping him too busy to come up with any more schemes for escape.<br />
<br />
*The Pillars of Hercules. In classical times, this was the name given to the Straits of Gibraltar; according to legend, Hercules (or Heracles) had once raised two pillars here when he passed by during one of his labors.<br />
<br />
*The Rock of Gibraltar, which stands at the southernmost tip of Spain, overlooking the Straits of Gibraltar. Its name stems from "Jabal al-Tarik", or the Rock of Tariq, after Tariq ibn Zayid, the leader of the Moors who conquered Spain in 711. The British captured Gibraltar from the Spanish in 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, and have held onto it ever since, despite Spain's attempts to recover it.<br />
<br />
*The Rosetta Stone. This stone, covered with three different inscriptions honoring Ptolemy V of Egypt, all written in 196 B.C., was discovered by one of Napoleon's soldiers in Egypt in 1799. Later it was captured by the British, and carried off to Britain, where it was placed in the British Museum (it is still there). The French archaeologist Jean-Francois Champollion used the inscriptions on the Rosetta Stone to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics.<br />
<br />
The complete list in order includes:<br />
<br />
* The [[Spirit of Destiny]]<br />
* The [[Fatal Stone]]<br />
* The [[Lia Fáil]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Bethel]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Jerusalem]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Egypt]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Samothrace]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Portugal]]<br />
* The [[Stone at Tara]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Mora]]<br />
* The [[Stone at Iona]]<br />
* The [[Stone of Scone]]<br />
* The [[Stone in London]]<br />
* The [[Stone in Edinburgh]]<br />
* The [[Blarney Stone]]<br />
* The [[Coronation Stone]]<br />
* The [[Hero Stone]]<br />
* The [[Pillar Stone]]<br />
* The [[Stone of the Sword]]<br />
* The [[Stone of the Waters]]<br />
* [[Clach-na-cinneamhain]]<br />
* The [[Tanist Stone]]<br />
* The [[Philosopher's Stone]]<br />
* The [[Standing Stone]]<br />
* The [[Cornerstone]]<br />
* The [[Foundation Stone]]<br />
* The [[Megalith Dance]]<br />
* The [[Burden of Sisyphus]]<br />
* The [[Rock of Gibraltar]]<br />
* The [[Pillars of Hercules]]<br />
* [[Uluru]]<br />
* [[Clach sgàin]]<br />
* Jacob's Pillow <!--There is no article of this. Just a redirect back to this page.--><br />
* The [[Rosetta Stone]]<br />
* The [[Rune Stone]]<br />
* [[Sire of the Wyrd]]<br />
* The [[Mantle of Fate]]<br />
* The Stone of Destiny<br />
* The [[Rock of Ages]] <!--Evidently this link just takes you to the actual comic issue . . . Don't know if we want to create a new page or just make a redirect like the Jacob's Pillow page, but I figured it was worth pointing out.--><br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
'''Voice Actor:''' [[Frank Welker]]<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Stone_of_Scone}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Magic]]<br />
[[Category:Objects]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]<br />
[[Category:Characters voiced by Frank Welker]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Westminster_Abbey&diff=40157Westminster Abbey2024-02-23T02:08:42Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Westminster_Abby.png|thumb|200px|Westminster Abbey]]<br />
'''Westminster Abbey''' is one of the most famous churches of [[London]]. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
Originally built by [[Edward the Confessor]], Westminster Abbey was consecrated in [[Timeline#995-1994|1065]]. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=696] <br />
<br />
On December 25th, 1950 [[Macbeth]] and four other Scots broke into the Abbey to retrieve the [[Stone of Destiny]]. It was returned to the Abbey the following year. ''([[The Rock|"The Rock"]])'' [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=508] <br />
<br />
In May [[Timeline#1996|1996]], [[King Arthur Pendragon]] came to Westminster Abbey upon his arrival in London, originally for the purpose of standing vigil there. However, [[Griff]] saw him enter and went to investigate, leading to their meeting. Arthur then encountered the Stone of Destiny, who told him that he must prove himself worthy once again to wield [[Excalibur]]. After Arthur recited the [[Excalibur Poem]] that was taught to Griff as a hatchling, the stone [[Harmonic Convergence|transported]] him and Griff to [[New York City]] to quest for the [[magic]] sword there. ''([[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]])''<br />
<br />
Later that year, Macbeth, [[Hudson]], and [[Lexington]] came to London to ensure the safe transport of the Stone of Destiny from the Abbey to [[Scotland]]. King Arthur, Griff and two other members of the [[London Clan]] ([[Staghart]] and [[Constance]]) also arrived on the scene. The five [[gargoyle]]s were later attacked there by [[Coldsteel]], [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], and [[Steel Clan]] and [[Iron Clan]] robots. ''("The Rock", [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]])''<br />
<br />
While the battle proceeded outside, King Arthur was told by the [[Spirit of Destiny]] in the Lantern of the Abbey that protecting any particular stone was pointless. ''([[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
Westminster Abbey was originally built by [[Edward the Confessor]] (1042-1066), who was King of [[England]] during [[Canmore]]'s overthrow of [[Macbeth]]; it was later on rebuilt by Henry III (1216-1272), producing the present-day building. Westminster Abbey serves as the traditional place of coronation for the King or Queen of England or [[Great Britain]], having served this role ever since 1066. It is also the place of burial for many noteworthy English figures, including a number of past monarchs. Between 1296 and 1996, the Stone of Destiny was kept here, beneath the Coronation Chair.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Westminster_Abbey}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon places]]<br />
[[Category:Real world places]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=%22Brooksbro%22&diff=40131"Brooksbro"2024-02-16T00:47:37Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Brooksbro.png|thumb|320px|"Brooksbro" in 1040.]]<br />
"'''Brooksbro'''" was a male [[gargoyle]] in ancient [[Scotland]]. He never had a true name, but "Brooksbro" is used to identify him. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
{{CIT|"Brooksbro" hatched in [[Timeline#Before 994|938]]}} in the [[rookery]] of the [[Wyvern Clan]] alongside his rookery siblings which included [[Goliath]], [[Demona]], [[Coldstone|"Othello"]], [[Coldfire|"Desdemona"]], [[Coldsteel|"Iago"]], and [[Hyppolyta|"Hyppolyta"]].. {{CIT|Sometime between 988 and [[Timeline#994|994]], "Brooksbro" left [[Wyvern Hill|Wyvern]] with many other gargoyles to help found a [[Wyvern Clan (split)|new clan]]. The new clan was destroyed sometime after, but "Brooksbro" and a few other members of the clan managed to survive.}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11845] They later became the [[Lunfanan Cell]] of [[Demona's Clan]].<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#995-1994|997]], "Brooksbro" fought in the [[Battle of Rathveramoen]] where he encountered Brooklyn{{CIT|, his biological brother}}. {{CIT|Since both gargoyles had been raised communally, neither one was aware of their relationship, nor would they have cared too much if they had been. Rather, "Brooksbro" would consider [[Goliath]] and [[Demona]] his siblings.}} ''([[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]], [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]])''<br />
<br />
By 1020, "Brooksbro" was one of just six remaining gargoyles in the Lunfanan Cell. Under Demona's leadership, his clan raided [[human]] food stores and farms to survive. ''([[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]])'' In 1040, he survived an attack on the clan in their cave roost by [[Duncan]] and his men. The clan was forced to move to a new lair and a new territory. ''([[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]]")''<br />
<br />
Shortly thereafter, the clan assisted [[Macbeth]] in his [[Battle of Bothgoanan|battle]] against Duncan. After their victory, Macbeth placed the clan under his protection, hoping for a new golden age between humans and gargoyles.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately, only seventeen years later, in 1057, the clan was at war with humans again, this time with [[Canmore]] and his [[England|English]] allies. "Brooksbro" continued to fight alongside his clan. Sadly, Demona betrayed Macbeth to Canmore, giving Canmore the opportunity to betray her. Canmore and his men destroyed "Brooksbro" and the rest of the clan, leaving Demona without a clan. ''([[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]]")''<br />
<br />
==Characteristics==<br />
"Brooksbro" was a dull tan colored gargoyle. Aside from coloring, he is very similar in appearance to Brooklyn, except that his wings were different and his horns split into two "branches" about halfway up. Like Brooklyn he had white hair and a large beak. He sports facial hair beneath his beak. In addition to his loincloth, he wears a low cut tunic with a single shoulder strap. All of his garments are blue.<br />
<br />
{{CIT|He is [[Brooklyn|Brooklyn's]] biological older brother.}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11982]<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] (First Appearance, No Lines)<br />
* [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Two]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Three]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Reach|"The Reach"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Draw|"The Draw"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Oath|"The Oath"]] (No Lines)<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
The name "Brooksbro" was used only in the scripts for the comics to differentiate this character from other gargoyles. It is never used in the [[Gargoyles (TV series)|TV series]] or the actual text of the [[Gargoyles (SLG)|comics]]. It is obviously a shortened form of "Brooklyn's brother". The name can be a little confusing, since he is not [["Schnozz"|the gargoyle who Brooklyn refers to as "bro,"]] though he is present in that scene.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Gargoyles]]<br />
[[Category:Demona's Clan]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Draw&diff=40100The Draw2024-02-09T00:36:53Z<p>Merlyn: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic2A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #2 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Draw"''' is the second issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on August 9th, 2023. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/JUN230660]<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
THE ORIGIN OF THE [[Gargoyle|GARGOYLES]] CONTINUES! In this second installment of the “Dark Ages” saga, [[Kenneth II|Kenneth]] and [[Hudson|Mentor’s]] [[human]] and Gargoyle alliance battle [[Culen|King Culen’s]] army (with some p]magic]]al help from the [[Archmage|ARCHMAGE]]). Mentor orders [[Goliath]]'s generation to stay back, as they aren’t yet seasoned warriors, but [[Demona|Angel]] and [[Hyppolyta]] disobey Mentor’s order and join the fighting — at great cost. Written by Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and illustrated by star artist DREW MOSS, this 40-page issue also features an illustrated text story by Weisman! ALL COVERS CARDSTOCK<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
The [[Wyvern Clan|Wyvern Clan's]] early adventures continue in this issue, and very effectively.<br />
<br />
The big moment is the death of [[Hudson|Mentor's]] mate, [["Verity"]]. The death in itself was not surprising - Greg Weisman had mentioned long before that she died in [[Timeline#Before 994|971]], though until this issue came out, it was canon-in-training - but it happening so early in the story *was* a surprise. It was also well-handled, with the looks of utter horror from [[Hyppolyta]], [[Demona|Angel]], and Mentor, and an entire page being dedicated to a single panel of a grieving Mentor clasping his dead mate in his arms. (Followed by the quick death at Mentor's hands of [[Cawdor|the thane]] who had slain her.)<br />
<br />
This is the central moment, but there are other noteworthy features. [[Culen]] is revealed to have his own sorcerer, a certain [[Valois|Lord Valois]], who delivers a [[magic]]al attack on the [[Gargoyle|gargoyles]] (in the form of watery hands rising from the sea to grab them) before the [[Archmage]] puts him to rout. It is indicated that Valois and the Archmage have a history; will we learn more in the following issues? (Valois is also portrayed as using a spear for his magical device, a counterpart to the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'' for the Archmage - and calling it "hasta fatum", Latin for "Spear of Destiny"....)<br />
<br />
To top it off, Angel's recklessness gets her captured by Culen, who uses her as a hostage to make his escape. ([[Goliath]] is so horrified that he forgets his orders to stay out of the fighting, which he has hitherto obeyed, and tries to come to her rescue; Mentor has to literally hold him back.) The debate among Kenneth and his allies and followers over what to do is well-handled, particularly when [[Prince Malcolm]] points out to his [[Kenneth II|older brother]] that breaking an oath to his allies would be a bad way to begin his reign. Culen escapes with his prisoner, but it's clear from the final panel that Mentor intends to remedy that....<br />
<br />
A fine continuation to the first issue.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Menteth]]<br />
* [[Valois|Lord Valois]]<br />
* [[Cawdor]]<br />
* [[Angus]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Hasta Fatum]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
Culen uses the term [[Rhydderch]] for a gargoyle leader, when speaking to Mentor.<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_2_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_2_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Reach|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter One: "The Reach"]]'''<br />
| '''[[The Oath|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Three: "The Oath">>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes|Draw, The]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages|Draw, The]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Dream&diff=40088The Dream2024-02-07T01:29:29Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic5A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #5 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Dream"''' is the fifth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on January 24th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/SEP230243] The digital version of the comic became available on Kindle on January 3rd, 2024.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The four youngest [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyle]]s find themselves at the mercy of a menacing [[dragon]], and while [[Hudson|Mentor]] and [[Goliath]] ready their warriors to do battle with the great beast, the [[Archmage]] tells [[Demona|Angel]] that his [[magic]]ks have sensed a problem — and an opportunity…<br />
<br />
Writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continue their epic origin tale in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, and ERICA HENDERSON!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
We now learn at last the reason for the name of Wyvern Hill and Castle Wyvern - and it's a big one. "Wyvern" is the name of a dragon dwelling in the cave near Wyvern Hill that featured in both "Long Way Till Morning" and "Shadows from the Past" - and a truly fearsome dragon at that, with all the classic features (wings, fiery breath, and a hoard). Furthermore, Wyvern the dragon is related to the gargoyles, even having his own version of stone sleep (though the rules for it appear to be a bit different than those of the gargoyles), and even brought the Wyvern clan there to protect him and his. The quartet and Alesand, exploring his cave, unwittingly awaken him and let slip the existence of the humans, sending him into a just-as-classic fury. (At least they didn't steal a cup from his treasure - though they didn't need to in order to arouse his wrath.)<br />
<br />
The adventures of these children continue to form a delight - if with darker elements even before they met Wyvern. Alesand gets to "fly" with the gargoyles for real, and is as delighted about it as in her dream. The trio display their knack for causing trouble even before entering the cave, when they inadvertently wreck some of the machinery at the building site. On a more serious note, Antiope spots the "Megalith Dance" that will be turned against Goliath over a thousand years later, calling it a "ghost-cage". And poor Alexander displays a knack for letting spill information that he shouldn't, twice, in his meeting with Wyvern.<br />
<br />
The rest of the cast get their own developments, while all this is going on. Desdemona and Angel continue their lessons (which are interrupted, for both pupils, by the dragon's awakening), complete with Angel reading a couple of fables, at least one of which may foreshadow her future development. Robbie eagerly toils on the castle alongside the gargoyles, seeing it as a way to bring gargoyles and humans together, while Prince Malcolm and Mentor comment on the work's progress in one of the issue's funniest moment. And young Nicolas seeks to join the players - whose king and queen seem themselves to suspect the dragon's approach (not surprising, given their true identities).<br />
<br />
We end on a great cliffhanger - and a very appropriate use of the Wyvern clan's "By the Dragon" line (whose origins we may now know). The one concern I have is - with only one issue left of "Dark Ages: Alliance", will that be room enough to wrap up this story? Will a single issue be able to do justice to an enraged dragon on the loose? We shall have to wait and find out.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
*[[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern]]<br />
*[[Wick the Weaver]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Gaine]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
Angel's reading lessons include two "real" fables (though both were first recorded after the tenth century), [["The Scorpion and the Frog"]] and [["Belling the Cat"]].<br />
<br />
The "Italian story of betrayal" mentioned as performed by the players in [[The Draw|"The Draw"]] is now revealed to be a pre-[[William Shakespeare|Shakespeare]] version of ''[[Othello (play)|Othello]]''.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Promise|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Four: "The Promise"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Six|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Six>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=%22Belling_the_Cat%22&diff=40036"Belling the Cat"2024-01-27T00:42:27Z<p>Merlyn: /* Real World Background */</p>
<hr />
<div>''Belling the Cat'' is one of the fables that Angel read while taking reading lessons from the Archmage. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
<br />
In the fable, a group of mice are preyed upon by a cat, and hold a council to decide what to do about her. One of the mice suggests placing a bell on the cat, so that they can hear her approaching. They agree that this is a good idea - but none of them want to be the one who has to place the bell on the cat, presumably keeping the plan from being carried out.<br />
<br />
Although the fable has often been attributed to Aesop, it actually first appears in the literature of the Middle Ages; one of its most famous appearances is in William Langland's ''Piers Plowman'' in the late 14th century, where the cat is apparently a symbol for King Edward III of England (1327-77). The fable is also linked to an incident in Scottish history; during the reign of James III of [[Scotland]] (1460-88), the Scottish nobles wished to dispose of the King's favorite, Thomas Cochrane, but none dared confront him. When one of them recalled the "Belling the Cat" fable, Archibald Douglas, the Earl of Angus, announced that he would "bell the cat", and proceeded to lead the others to overthrow Cochrane; he was thereafter nicknamed "Bell the Cat". (This tale seems to have originated a couple of centuries after the event - and in actual history, Cochrane appears to have been a man loyal to the king whom the Scottish nobles killed to prevent him from interfering with their plan to take the king prisoner, rather than a wicked favorite.)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=%22Belling_the_Cat%22&diff=40035"Belling the Cat"2024-01-27T00:39:27Z<p>Merlyn: Created page with "''Belling the Cat'' is one of the fables that Angel read while taking reading lessons from the Archmage. ''("The Dream")'' ==Real World Background== In the fa..."</p>
<hr />
<div>''Belling the Cat'' is one of the fables that Angel read while taking reading lessons from the Archmage. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
<br />
In the fable, a group of mice are preyed upon by a cat, and hold a council to decide what to do about her. One of the mice suggests placing a bell on the cat, so that they can hear her approaching. They agree that this is a good idea - but none of them want to be the one who has to place the bell on the cat, presumably keeping the plan from being carried out.<br />
<br />
Although the fable has often been attributed to Aesop, it actually first appears in the literature of the Middle Ages; one of its most famous appearances is in William Langland's ''Piers Plowman'' in the late 14th century, where the cat is apparently a symbol for King Edward III of England (1327-77). The fable is also linked to an incident in Scottish history; during the reign of James III of [[Scotland]] (1460-88), the Scottish nobles wished to dispose of the King's favorite, Thomas Cothrane, but none dared confront him. When one of them recalled the "Belling the Cat" fable, Archibald Douglas, the Earl of Angus, announced that he would "bell the cat", and proceeded to lead the others to overthrow Cothrane; he was thereafter nicknamed "Bell the Cat". (This tale seems to have originated a couple of centuries after the event - and in actual history, Cothrane appears to have been a man loyal to the king whom the Scottish nobles killed to prevent him from interfering with their plan to take the king prisoner, rather than a wicked favorite.)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=%22The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog%22&diff=40034"The Scorpion and the Frog"2024-01-27T00:25:25Z<p>Merlyn: </p>
<hr />
<div>''The Scorpion and the Frog'' is one of the fables that Angel read during her reading lessons with the Archmage. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
<br />
In the fable, a scorpion asks a frog to carry it on its back across a river. The frog at first refuses, fearing that the scorpion will sting it; the scorpion points out that if it kills the frog while they're in the river, it would drown as well. The frog therefore carries it across, only for the scorpion to sting it before they reach the other side, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it did so, when it knew that this act would be fatal to the scorpion as well as to the frog; the scorpion replies, "I couldn't help it; it's my nature."<br />
<br />
The story actually appears to have first arisen in Russia during the first half of the twentieth century, making its presence in the Archmage's books anachronistic.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=%22The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog%22&diff=40033"The Scorpion and the Frog"2024-01-27T00:24:40Z<p>Merlyn: Created page with "'''''The Scorpion and the Frog''''' is one of the fables that Angel read during her reading lessons with the Archmage. ''("The Dream")'' ==Real World Backgroun..."</p>
<hr />
<div>'''''The Scorpion and the Frog''''' is one of the fables that Angel read during her reading lessons with the Archmage. ''([[The Dream|"The Dream"]])''<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
<br />
In the fable, a scorpion asks a frog to carry it on its back across a river. The frog at first refuses, fearing that the scorpion will sting it; the scorpion points out that if it kills the frog while they're in the river, it would drown as well. The frog therefore carries it across, only for the scorpion to sting it before they reach the other side, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it did so, when it knew that this act would be fatal to the scorpion as well as to the frog; the scorpion replies, "I couldn't help it; it's my nature."<br />
<br />
The story actually appears to have first arisen in Russia during the first half of the twentieth century, making its presence in the Archmage's books anachronistic.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Dream&diff=40031The Dream2024-01-27T00:11:34Z<p>Merlyn: /* Tidbits */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic5A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #5 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Dream"''' is the fifth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on January 24th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/SEP230243] The digital version of the comic became available on Kindle on January 3rd, 2024.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The four youngest [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyle]]s find themselves at the mercy of a menacing [[dragon]], and while [[Hudson|Mentor]] and [[Goliath]] ready their warriors to do battle with the great beast, the [[Archmage]] tells [[Demona|Angel]] that his [[magic]]ks have sensed a problem — and an opportunity…<br />
<br />
Writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continue their epic origin tale in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, and ERICA HENDERSON!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
*[[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern]]<br />
*[[Wick the Weaver]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Gaine]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
Angel's reading lessons include two "real" fables (though both were first recorded after the tenth century), [["The Scorpion and the Frog"]] and [["Belling the Cat"]].<br />
<br />
The "Italian story of betrayal" mentioned as performed by the players in "The Draw" is now revealed to be a pre-Shakespeare version of ''Othello''.<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Promise|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Four: "The Promise"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Six|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Six>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Dream&diff=40030The Dream2024-01-27T00:10:11Z<p>Merlyn: /* Tidbits */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic5A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #5 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Dream"''' is the fifth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on January 24th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/SEP230243] The digital version of the comic became available on Kindle on January 3rd, 2024.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The four youngest [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyle]]s find themselves at the mercy of a menacing [[dragon]], and while [[Hudson|Mentor]] and [[Goliath]] ready their warriors to do battle with the great beast, the [[Archmage]] tells [[Demona|Angel]] that his [[magic]]ks have sensed a problem — and an opportunity…<br />
<br />
Writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continue their epic origin tale in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, and ERICA HENDERSON!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
*[[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern]]<br />
*[[Wick the Weaver]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Gaine]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
Angel's reading lessons include two "real" fables (though both were first recorded after the tenth century), "The Scorpion and the Frog" and "Belling the Cat".<br />
<br />
The "Italian story of betrayal" mentioned as performed by the players in "The Draw" is now revealed to be a pre-Shakespeare version of ''Othello''.<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Promise|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Four: "The Promise"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Six|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Six>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Dream&diff=40029The Dream2024-01-27T00:08:40Z<p>Merlyn: /* Tidbits */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic5A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #5 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Dream"''' is the fifth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on January 24th, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/SEP230243] The digital version of the comic became available on Kindle on January 3rd, 2024.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
The four youngest [[Wyvern Clan|Gargoyle]]s find themselves at the mercy of a menacing [[dragon]], and while [[Hudson|Mentor]] and [[Goliath]] ready their warriors to do battle with the great beast, the [[Archmage]] tells [[Demona|Angel]] that his [[magic]]ks have sensed a problem — and an opportunity…<br />
<br />
Writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continue their epic origin tale in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, and ERICA HENDERSON!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
*[[Wyvern (Dragon)|Wyvern]]<br />
*[[Wick the Weaver]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Gaine]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
Angel's reading lessons include two "real" fables (though both were first recorded after the tenth century), "The Scorpion and the Frog" and "Belling the Cat".<br />
<br />
The "Italian story of betrayal" mentioned as performed by the players in "Dark Ages #2" is now revealed to be a pre-Shakespeare version of "Othello".<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Promise|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Four: "The Promise"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Six|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Six>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Voices_from_the_Eyrie&diff=40008Voices from the Eyrie2024-01-26T01:16:11Z<p>Merlyn: /* Episodes */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Voices_from_the_Eyrie_1.PNG|thumb|400px|Voices from the Eyrie - A Gargoyles Podcast]]<br />
<br />
'''Voices from the Eyrie''' is a ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]''-themed podcast, hosted by Jennifer L. Anderson and Greg Bishansky. It has featured many people involved in the making of ''Gargoyles'' as guests. It premiered on September 23, 2021.<br />
<br />
Most of the podcast have dealt with individual [[Episode_Guide#Canon_episodes|episodes]] of ''Gargoyles'', though a few have been overviews of the series or certain elements of it.<br />
<br />
==Episodes==<br />
# "Developing the Show". Guests: [[Greg Weisman]] and [[Greg Guler]]. Premiered on September 23, 2021.<br />
# "Making the Show". Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Frank Paur]]. Premiered on October 24, 2021.<br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on November 12, 2021.<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on November 26, 2021.<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Jamie Thomason]]. Premiered on December 9, 2021.<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on January 14, 2022.<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on January 28, 2022.<br />
# "New Perspectives: Awakening". Guests: Emily Buza (co-host of "Whelmed: The Young Justice Files") and Zach Joiner (co-host of "Spectacular Radio"). Premiered on February 11, 2022.<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Thom Adcox]]. Premiered on February 25, 2022.<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Jeff Bennett]]. Premiered on March 11, 2022.<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Bill Fagerbakke]]. Premiered on April 15, 2022.<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Carl Johnson]]. Premiered on April 29, 2022.<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Jonathan Frakes]]. Premiered on May 13, 2022.<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Matt Asner (son of [[Ed Asner]]). Premiered on May 26, 2022.<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Roy Sato]]. Premiered on June 9, 2022.<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Keith David]]. Premiered on June 23, 2022.<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Frank Paur. Premiered on July 14, 2022.<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on July 28, 2022.<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman, [[Cary Bates]], and Jamie Thomason. Premiered on August 11, 2022.<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Brynne Chandler]]. Premiered on August 25, 2022.<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Brent Spiner]]. Premiered on September 16, 2022.<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Cary Bates. Premiered on September 29, 2022.<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Steven Perry]]. Premiered on October 13, 2022.<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Nate Cosby (editor of [[Dynamite Entertainment]]). Premiered on October 27, 2022.<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on November 10, 2022.<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Tuppence Macintyre]]. Premiered on November 24, 2022.<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on December 15, 2022.<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Frank Paur. Premiered on December 29, 2022.<br />
# "The Gargoyles Fandom: Then and Now". Guests: Greg Weisman, Gorebash, Christine Morgan, and [[Karine Charlebois]]. Premiered on January 26, 2023.<br />
# "New Perspectives: City of Stone". Guests: Greg Weisman, Neal Powell (co-host of "Whelmed: The Young Justice Files") and Zach Joiner. Premiered on February 23, 2023.<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Salli Richardson|Salli Richardson-Whitfield]]. Premiered on March 23, 2023.<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]]. Guest: Greg Weisman. Premiered on April 27, 2023.<br />
# "And Now a Word... From Dynamite Comics". Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Drew Moss]]. Premiered on May 19, 2023.<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Cary Bates. Premiered on June 29, 2023.<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Jamie Thomason. Premiered on July 20, 2023.<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Thom Adcox. Premiered on August 10, 2023.<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman. Premiered on August 24, 2023.<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and [[Dave Witting]]. Premiered on September 14, 2023.<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Karine Charlebois. Premiered on September 28, 2023.<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]]. Guests: Greg Weisman and Karine Charlebois. Premiered on October 12, 2023.<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]]. Guests: Greg Weisman, Frank Paur, and [[Dennis Woodyard]]. Premiered on October 26, 2023.<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]]. Guests: Greg Weisman, [[Brigitte Bako]]. Premiered on November 16, 2023.<br />
# "The 30th Anniversary Celebration Begins". Guests: Greg Weisman, Robby Bevard, Karine Charlebois. Premiered on January 25, 2024.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*'''[https://spidey-dude.com/category/podcasts/voices-podcast/ Voices from the Eyrie - A Gargoyles Podcast]'''<br />
<br />
[[Category: Out-of-universe]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Young_At_Heart&diff=39782Young At Heart2024-01-09T12:31:49Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic23A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles #11 by David Nakayama]]<br />
The eleventh issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (Dynamite)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]] was released on January 3rd, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG230316] The digital version of the comic was briefly available on Kindle on December 20th, 2023 (before being removed for all but customers who already had it on December 21st).<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[George Kambadais]] <br />
*Color Artists: [[Giulia Giacomino]] & [[Giovanna La Pietra]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[David Nakayama]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
With the [[Manhattan Clan]] back together again, [[Brooklyn]] and [[Katana]] ask [[Broadway]], [[Lexington]], and [[Angela]] to stand as their Seconds during the all-important [[Commitment Ceremony]]. The Clan has never felt stronger - which is a good thing, because a desperate [[Dino Dracon]] is about to make one last play to take over all of [[New York City]]!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
The next-to-last issue of "Here in Manhattan" contains both some expected moments and some unexpected ones.<br />
<br />
The [[Trio]] (accompanied by [[Nashville|Gnash]], who serves as narrator for this issue) learn from [[Antoinette Dracon]] that Dino – who appears to becoming suspicious (with good reason) that the cracks in his scheme to set the rival organized crime families of [[Manhattan]] against each other are appearing – has decided to kill [[Rosaria Sanchez|Rosaria]] and [[Peter Choy|Peter]]. They come to the rescue, defeating the kidnappers and carrying the two teenagers off to safety. while I suspect that the readers of this comic had expected that the Trio would do this – especially since the kidnappers were wearing Trio masks – we get a neat surprise; Dino brings in a few more henchmen, in [[Exo-Frame#Goldencup|exo-frames]] similar to the ones [[Demona]] was using at the start of [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]], and wearing masks of the remaining original clan members ([[Goliath]], [[Hudson]], [[Bronx]], and Angela). (Dino's information on the clan apparently stemmed entirely from the period before Brooklyn's TimeDancing adventures – to be precise, the period between [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering"]] and [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]]; we see no masks of the [[Coldstone]], [[Coldfire]], [[Katana]], [[Nashville]], or [[Fu-Dog]], and Dino's Brooklyn mask is of Brooklyn's pre-TimeDancer self, something Brooklyn points out.) Fortunately, the Trio defeat these new opponents and emerge victorious, to Gnash's delight. Apparently much of the friction between them has healed.<br />
<br />
[[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] is facing new friction from [[Maria Chavez|Chavez]], however – something that the audience had most likely also anticipated. Now that Chavez knows that Elisa's been friends with the gargoyles for the past three years – and keeping her out of the loop – she's understandably not pleased, and Elisa has a hard time defending herself (after all, her reason – as she mentioned back in [[Revelations|"Revelations"]] – was that she liked the special feeling of being the gargoyles' only human friend, which, as [[Matt Bluestone|Matt]] points out, is "a tad selfish"). We only get two pages of this thread in the issue, but it ends with Matt having a solution to the problem – though we will have to wait for the next issue to find out what it is.<br />
<br />
And Goliath, [[Fox]], [[Titania|Anastasia]], [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], [[Alexander Fox Xanatos|Alex]], [[Owen Burnett|Owen]], and [[Preston Vogel|Vogel]] attend the passing of [[Halcyon Renard]]. This was another development that we'd expected from the ending of #10 – had expected even from #9, where it's clear that Renard's health is failing – and for that matter, Greg Weisman had mentioned having plans for such an event in the never-aired Season Three. But we get an even bigger surprise than the Dracon exo-frames; Renard, after leaving 49% of [[Cyberbiotics]] to Fox, and another 49% to Alex (with Vogel acting for him until he comes of age), deeds the final 2% to Goliath! Goliath is taken aback, even alarmed (I can imagine him thinking what he'd stated in [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]) – "Money is a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours"), but accepts it, as he understands why Renard had done this; he recognizes Goliath as the one most suited to guide Alex down the right path, and tells his dying friend, "Then I will strive to honor your trust". We have some effective scenes between Renard and his family as well, particularly a poignant moment for him and Anastasia, before he passes on in the final panel.<br />
<br />
Although Dino's plans have received a setback, he announces that he still has one last plan, which will "bring all of Manhattan to its knees". Which leads to two big questions that we will have to wait until #12 to be answered – what is Dino's plan, and will the last issue have enough room to do it justice? Let us hope that it does.<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
*The solicitation for the issue might be an error as Brooklyn and Katana are already mates, the cover depicts Broadway and Angela and, in the [[Render Unto Caesar|fifth issue]], Broadway and Angela discussed a [[Commitment Ceremony]].<br />
<br />
*Not only does Dino Dracon refer to Rosaria and Peter as "Romeo and Juliet" again, but Renard pays additional tribute to [[William Shakespeare|Shakespeare's]] [[Romeo and Juliet|play]] when he describes Preston and Owen as "both alike in dignity".<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[New Rules|<< Previous Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Ten: "New Rules"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve|Next Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Twelve>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Young_At_Heart&diff=39778Young At Heart2024-01-09T00:38:59Z<p>Merlyn: /* Tidbits */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic23A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles #11 by David Nakayama]]<br />
The eleventh issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (Dynamite)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]] was released on January 3rd, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG230316] The digital version of the comic was briefly available on Kindle on December 20th, 2023 (before being removed for all but customers who already had it on December 21st).<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[George Kambadais]] <br />
*Color Artists: [[Giulia Giacomino]] & [[Giovanna La Pietra]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[David Nakayama]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
With the [[Manhattan Clan]] back together again, [[Brooklyn]] and [[Katana]] ask [[Broadway]], [[Lexington]], and [[Angela]] to stand as their Seconds during the all-important [[Commitment Ceremony]]. The Clan has never felt stronger - which is a good thing, because a desperate [[Dino Dracon]] is about to make one last play to take over all of [[New York City]]!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
The next-to-last issue of "Here in Manhattan" contains both some expected moments and some unexpected ones.<br />
<br />
The trio (accompanied by Gnash, who serves as narrator for this issue) learn from Antoinette Dracon that Dino - who appears to becoming suspicious (with good reason) that the cracks in his scheme to set the rival organized crime families of Manhattan against each other are appearing - has decided to kill Rosaria and Peter. They come to the rescue, defeating the kidnappers and carrying the two teenagers off to safety. while I suspect that the readers of this comic had expected that the trio would do this - especially since the kidnappers were wearing trio masks - we get a neat surprise; Dino brings in a few more henchmen, in exo-frames similar to the ones Demona was using at the start of "The Reckoning", and wearing masks of the remaining original clan members (Goliath, Hudson, Bronx, and Angela). (Dino's information on the clan apparently stemmed entirely from the period before Brooklyn's Timedancing adventures - to be precise, the period between "The Gathering" and "Phoenix"; we see no masks of the ColdDuo, Katana, Nashville, or Fu-Dog, and Dino's Brooklyn mask is of Brooklyn's pre-Timedancer self, something Brooklyn points out.) Fortunately, the trio defeat these new opponents and emerge victorious, to Gnash's delight. Apparently much of the friction between them has healed.<br />
<br />
Elisa is facing new friction from Chavez, however - something that the audience had most likely also anticipated. Now that Chavez knows that Elisa's been friends with the gargoyles for the past three years - and keeping her out of the loop - she's understandably not pleased, and Elisa has a hard time defending herself. (After all, her reason - as she mentioned back in "Revelations" - was that she liked the special feeling of being the gargoyles' only human friend, which, as Matt points out, is "a tad selfish".) We only get two pages of this thread in the issue, but it ends with Matt having a solution to the problem - though we will have to wait for the next issue to find out what it is.<br />
<br />
And Goliath, Fox, Anastasia, Xanatos, Alex, Owen, and Vogel attend the passing of Halcyon Renard. This was another development that we'd expected from the ending of #10 - had expected even from #9, where it's clear that renard's health is failing - and for that matter, Greg Weisman had mentioned having plans for such an event in the never-aired Season Three. But we get an even bigger surprise than the Dracon exo-frames; Renard, after leaving 49% of Cyberbiotics to Fox, and another 49 % to Alex (with Vogel acting for him until he comes of age, deeds the final 2% to Goliath! Goliath is taken aback, even alarmed (I can imagine him thinking what he'd stated in "Double Jeopardy" - "Money is a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours"), but accepts it, as he understands why Renard had done this; he recognizes Goliath as the one most suited to guide Alex down the right path, and tells his dying friend, "Then I will strive to honor your trust". We have some effective scenes between Renard and his family as well, particularly a poignant moment for him and Anastasia, before he passes on in the final panel.<br />
<br />
Although Dino's plans have received a setback, he announces that he still has one last plan, which will "bring all of Manhattan to its knees". Which leads to two big questions that we will have to wait until #12 to be answered - what is Dino's plan, and will the last issue have enough room to do it justice? Let us hope that it does.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
* The solicitation for the issue might be an error as Brooklyn and Katana are already mates, the cover depicts Broadway and Angela and, in the [[Render Unto Caesar|fifth issue]], Broadway and Angela discussed a Commitment Ceremony.<br />
<br />
* Not only does Dino Dracon refer to Rosaria and Peter as "Romeo and Juliet" again, but Renard pays additional tribute to Shakespeare's play when he describes Preston and Owen as "both alike in dignity".<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[New Rules|<< Previous Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Ten: "New Rules"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve|Next Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Twelve>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Young_At_Heart&diff=39777Young At Heart2024-01-09T00:37:24Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic23A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles #11 by David Nakayama]]<br />
The eleventh issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (Dynamite)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]] was released on January 3rd, 2024. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG230316] The digital version of the comic was briefly available on Kindle on December 20th, 2023 (before being removed for all but customers who already had it on December 21st).<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[George Kambadais]] <br />
*Color Artists: [[Giulia Giacomino]] & [[Giovanna La Pietra]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[David Nakayama]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
With the [[Manhattan Clan]] back together again, [[Brooklyn]] and [[Katana]] ask [[Broadway]], [[Lexington]], and [[Angela]] to stand as their Seconds during the all-important [[Commitment Ceremony]]. The Clan has never felt stronger - which is a good thing, because a desperate [[Dino Dracon]] is about to make one last play to take over all of [[New York City]]!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
The next-to-last issue of "Here in Manhattan" contains both some expected moments and some unexpected ones.<br />
<br />
The trio (accompanied by Gnash, who serves as narrator for this issue) learn from Antoinette Dracon that Dino - who appears to becoming suspicious (with good reason) that the cracks in his scheme to set the rival organized crime families of Manhattan against each other are appearing - has decided to kill Rosaria and Peter. They come to the rescue, defeating the kidnappers and carrying the two teenagers off to safety. while I suspect that the readers of this comic had expected that the trio would do this - especially since the kidnappers were wearing trio masks - we get a neat surprise; Dino brings in a few more henchmen, in exo-frames similar to the ones Demona was using at the start of "The Reckoning", and wearing masks of the remaining original clan members (Goliath, Hudson, Bronx, and Angela). (Dino's information on the clan apparently stemmed entirely from the period before Brooklyn's Timedancing adventures - to be precise, the period between "The Gathering" and "Phoenix"; we see no masks of the ColdDuo, Katana, Nashville, or Fu-Dog, and Dino's Brooklyn mask is of Brooklyn's pre-Timedancer self, something Brooklyn points out.) Fortunately, the trio defeat these new opponents and emerge victorious, to Gnash's delight. Apparently much of the friction between them has healed.<br />
<br />
Elisa is facing new friction from Chavez, however - something that the audience had most likely also anticipated. Now that Chavez knows that Elisa's been friends with the gargoyles for the past three years - and keeping her out of the loop - she's understandably not pleased, and Elisa has a hard time defending herself. (After all, her reason - as she mentioned back in "Revelations" - was that she liked the special feeling of being the gargoyles' only human friend, which, as Matt points out, is "a tad selfish".) We only get two pages of this thread in the issue, but it ends with Matt having a solution to the problem - though we will have to wait for the next issue to find out what it is.<br />
<br />
And Goliath, Fox, Anastasia, Xanatos, Alex, Owen, and Vogel attend the passing of Halcyon Renard. This was another development that we'd expected from the ending of #10 - had expected even from #9, where it's clear that renard's health is failing - and for that matter, Greg Weisman had mentioned having plans for such an event in the never-aired Season Three. But we get an even bigger surprise than the Dracon exo-frames; Renard, after leaving 49% of Cyberbiotics to Fox, and another 49 % to Alex (with Vogel acting for him until he comes of age, deeds the final 2% to Goliath! Goliath is taken aback, even alarmed (I can imagine him thinking what he'd stated in "Double Jeopardy" - "Money is a necessary evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours"), but accepts it, as he understands why Renard had done this; he recognizes Goliath as the one most suited to guide Alex down the right path, and tells his dying friend, "Then I will strive to honor your trust". We have some effective scenes between Renard and his family as well, particularly a poignant moment for him and Anastasia, before he passes on in the final panel.<br />
<br />
Although Dino's plans have received a setback, he announces that he still has one last plan, which will "bring all of Manhattan to its knees". Which leads to two big questions that we will have to wait until #12 to be answered - what is Dino's plan, and will the last issue have enough room to do it justice? Let us hope that it does.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
* The solicitation for the issue might be an error as Brooklyn and Katana are already mates, the cover depicts Broadway and Angela and, in the [[Render Unto Caesar|fifth issue]], Broadway and Angela discussed a Commitment Ceremony.<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_11_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[New Rules|<< Previous Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Ten: "New Rules"]]'''<br />
| '''[[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve|Next Episode: "Here In Manhattan" Chapter Twelve>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Travis_Marshall&diff=39762Travis Marshall2024-01-07T13:50:33Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Travis.png|thumb|360px|Travis Marshall]]<br />
<br />
'''Travis Marshall''' is a reporter, anchorman (for ''[[Nightwatch]]''), and managing editor for [[WVRN]] News. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
Travis Marshall has reported on many events that took place in [[Manhattan]] since the [[gargoyle]]s' awakening. In [[Timeline#1995|1995]], he interviewed [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]] when he donated the [[Eye of Odin]] to the [[Museum of Modern Art]] and later reported its subsequent theft. ''([[The Edge|"The Edge"]])'' Other news stories Marshall covered that year included [[Coldstone]]'s rampage in [[Times Square]], [[Fox]]'s appearances in her [[were]]-form, the after-effects of [[Demona]]'s broadcast of her "[[Stone By Night Spell|stone by night]]" spell, the launching of [[Fortress-2]], and [[Tony Dracon|Dracon]]'s destruction of [[Art]] and [[Lois]]' restaurant. ''([[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]], [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]], [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]], [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]], [[Protection|"Protection"]])''<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#1996|1996]], he broke the news of the birth of [[Alexander Fox Xanatos|Alexander Xanatos]], and the gargoyles' battle with the [[Hunters]] at [[Saint Damien's Cathedral]] months later. ''([[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]], [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]])'' He also hosted a television debate on ''Nightwatch'' between [[Macbeth]] and [[Margot Yale]], the same night that [[Goliath]] and [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] had their first encounter with the [[Quarrymen]]. ''([[The Journey|"The Journey"]])''<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#1997|1997]], Marshall also attempted to interview [[Dominic Dracon]] when he was released from [[Bellevue Hospital]]. Later he petitioned for the ability to air Goliath's hearing on Live TV, which was granted. He provided commentary as the hearing unfolded. ''([[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]], [[Your Witness|"Your Witness]])''<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] (First Appearance)<br />
* [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]]<br />
* [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
* [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]]<br />
* [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]]<br />
* [[Protection|"Protection"]]<br />
* [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]]<br />
* [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
* [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
* [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
* [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
* [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
* [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]]<br />
* [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
* [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
* [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
{{CIT|Although his background was never explored on the show, [[Greg Weisman]] and [[Michael Reaves]] envisioned Travis Marshall to be from the old school style of journalism, preferring to be out on the streets, asking tough questions and disdaining fluff journalism.}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=62] [http://www.angelfire.com/rings/katsaris/garbible.htm]<br />
<br />
'''Voice Actor:''' [[Charles Hallahan]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters|Marshall, Travis]]<br />
[[Category:Humans|Marshall, Travis]]<br />
[[Category: Characters voiced by Charles Hallahan|Marshall, Travis]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Rock_of_Ages&diff=39604Rock of Ages2023-12-12T01:23:33Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic9.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #9 by Greg Guler]]<br />
<br />
'''"Rock of Ages"''' is the ninth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Nine of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc.<br />
<br />
On August 31, 2008, SLG's license to produce single issues of the ''Gargoyles'' comic ended. The material that would have made up single issues nine through twelve is included in the trade paperback collection ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director/Cover Pencil Artist: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: unknown<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
CLAN BUILDING: Chapter 9, "Rock of Ages" - [[David Xanatos]] makes his final play for the Rock - in broad daylight when the [[gargoyle]]s sleep as [[Stone Sleep|stone]]! But will the [[Illuminati]] be pleased with the end result? And what's this obsession over [[Fox]]'s new shoes?<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
While [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] encounters security inside [[Westminster Abbey]], [[Lexington]], [[Hudson]], [[Constance]], and [[Staghart]] continue battling [[Coldsteel]] and [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]] who retreat with the arrival of [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]]. The following morning during the Stone’s transport on the [[Coldstream Bridge]], Coldstone and Coldfire engage Coldsteel and Coyote, where ultimately Coldfire subdues Coldsteel, and Coldstone destroys Coyote. <br />
Xanatos remotely switches the Stone in the convoy and later trades off with [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]] of the Illuminati. She leaves [[Leith]] for [[Castle Carbonek|Carbonek]] where she informs [[Peredur fab Ragnal]] they have the [[Stone of Destiny]]. The Stone however, chastises Peredur (and [[Macbeth]], Arthur, and Xanatos) that it is the Spirit of Destiny and cannot be possessed. Further, the Stone reveals to Peredur that King Arthur is awake once more.<br />
The London clan wish Hudson and Lexington to stay longer and Coldstone and Coldfire reconsider whether to continue pursuing Coldsteel.<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
Xanatos's careful placement of Fox's manolos shoe box is revealed to be the source of the bomb threat at Coldstream Bridge. He's also revealed as the one who gave Coldstone and Coldfire the means to track Coldsteel, providing plenty of distraction for all parties involved.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] finishes her tales regarding the Stone of Destiny, leading up the present with Macbeth asking the [[Manhattan Clan]] for help from "The Rock". [[Thailog]] beats her in chess.<br />
<br />
Coldsteel returns the [[Coyote Diamond]] to Xanatos, after Coyote 5.0's demise.<br />
<br />
The Stone and [[Holy Grail]] exchange greetings.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 15, 8:15 PM, GMT. KNIGHT'S SPUR - Hudson is saying "Aye, lad, but it's a mighty big world... and even the banished and the badduns eventually return to the clan."<br />
<br />
November 11, 12:11 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - Coldsteel responds to the arrival of Coldstone and Coldfire by mockingly remarking that it's "turning into quite the reunion".<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:45 PM, GMT. MAYFAIR - Fox, having bought her shoes, comments to Xanatos, "Mission accomplished."<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:31 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - King Arthur tells Macbeth and the gargoyles that they might not need to guard the Stone of Destiny after all.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:18 AM, GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY [Westminster Abbey] - Arthur raises the lid of the chest in which the Stone is being kept and gazes inside.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:40 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Shari tells Thailog how Edward I of England made war on the Scots and carried off the Stone of Destiny. He then placed the Stone within the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey, where it played a part in the coronations of the Kings and Queens of England from then on.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:12 AM, GST. WESTMINSTER ABBEY - King Arthur creeps out behind the Coronation Chair, knocks out a couple of security guards (with apologies), and places his crown upon his head as he stands over the chest in which the Stone is stored.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:12 AM, GST. VICTORIA TOWER - Lexington comes to, and rejoins the battle. With a bit of skillful maneuvering, Lexington and Staghart lead the Steel Clan and Iron Clan robots into Coyote's line of fire, resulting in their both being destroyed. Coldfire asks Coldstone if he's feeling outnumbered now, to which Hudson (recovering his sword from Coldsteel's tentacles) adds "over-matched". Coldsteel grumbles that he wasn't "expecting all the company".<br />
<br />
November 13, 6:01 AM, GMT+8. TIBET - Coldfire hears a signal, and tells Coldstone "I believe I can find him."<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:17 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - Coldsteel and Coyote retreat, Coldsteel muttering "Tomorrow is another day."<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:42 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Shari tells Thailog how Robert the Bruce defeated the English at the Battle of Bannockburn, with help from an Irish king named Cormac MacCarthy (and also an incognito Macbeth). To thank Cormac, Robert the Bruce gave him a piece of the Stone of Destiny, which Cormac's descendants placed in Blarney Castle; there it became the famous Blarney Stone (which Shari mentions kissing once or twice).<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - As a security guard calls for the bomb unit, Macbeth and King Arthur locate Xanatos in the crowd watching the Stone of Destiny's return to Scotland. Macbeth reports their finding to Coldstone via radio-link – "Safe to say he's up to something." Coldstone agrees as he and Coldfire have just spotted Coyote and Coldsteel approaching the bridge. They do battle. Coldsteel seizes Coldfire in his tentacles, while Coyote strikes Coldstone from behind with a chain-saw. Coldsteel gloats over being able to fight in the daytime, without the regular gargoyles around to "even the odds". Coldfire rams him in the face with her head, saying "Considered the odds evened", damaging him (and forcing him to speak with a stutter for a while). Coyote states that, because of Xanatos's "respect for Goliath", he's been programmed to only inflict as much damage as necessary – but he gets to define "necessary". "Define this," replies Coldstone, smashing Coyote's face-screen with his fist, then shoving his arm-cannon into the resulting opening and opening fire. The resulting explosion destroys Coyote. Coldsteel laments Coyote's fate, pointing out that he had potential.<br />
<br />
November 15, 6:16 AM, GMT. LEITH - Coyote tells Coldsteel that he is not programmed for free will. "Pity," says Coldsteel. "You have potential."<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:05 AM, GMT. RIVER TWEED - Coldsteel dives into the river to escape the other two members of the ColdTrio. Coldstone dives in after him, but is unable to find him.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:40 AM GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - Coldstone radios his report to Macbeth. The convoy transporting the Stone of Destiny resumes its journey.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:00 PM, GMT. EDINBURGH CASTLE - Macbeth tells King Arthur that the Stone is back where it belongs – amending that statement to add that it actually belongs in Scone, rather than Edinburgh. But at least its been returned to Scotland.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:36 PM, GMT. LEITH - The car that transported the Stone drives into a warehouse, where Xanatos is waiting.<br />
<br />
November 15, 3:59 PM, GMT. LEITH - Xanatos and a blonde woman exchange greetings – "Thirty-six." "Three." The woman, Fleur, asks Xanatos if there'd been any problems; he replies, "Only finding a duplicate on such short notice."<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:12 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - Xanatos, still standing between Macbeth and King Arthur,<!--and, naturally, matter-of-fact about being next to two famous legendary medieval British kings--> surreptitiously pushes a button, rotating the floor of the car in which the Stone of Destiny is being stored so that it is replaced by a duplicate stone, hidden underneath until this moment. A Coldstream Guard protests to some musicians<!--presumably bagpipes-players--> to not play so loud; the bomb squad's busy.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:38 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - The bomb squad reports that the object blocking the road had been only an empty shoebox.<br />
<br />
November 7, 7:19 PM, GMT. LONDON - Xanatos asks Fox, as she poses in front of the mirror in her new shoes, if she still wants the shoebox, or if he can take care of it.<br />
<br />
November 15, 4:04 PM, GMT. LEITH - Fleur drives off in the car, arriving at Castle Carbonek. A grim-looking bald man with a cybernetic eye and arm (Duval) is waiting for her in the castle gateway, declaring his number – "Two". Fleur only responds with a harsh remark, to his anger. A fair-haired clean-shaven man steps forward, asking them to please make peace – "Since you are, after all, the two people I love most in this world?" Fleur reports that she brought the Stone.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:40 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Thailog, still playing chess with Shari, calls "Check" on her. Shari merely tells another tale, this time of the 1950 raid on Westminster Abbey in which "a band of Scottish patriots" (including Macbeth) carried off the Stone of Destiny, but accidentally dropped it and broke it in half while still in the Abbey.<br />
<br />
April 11, 1951. 1:06 AM, GMT. ARBROATH ABBEY - Macbeth has just finished gluing the Stone of Destiny back together, when it speaks, telling him that his "effort was pointless".<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:06 PM, GMT. LEITH - The Stone similarly addresses Xanatos, telling him that his plan to deliver the Illuminati a second duplicate Stone while keeping the "real" one for himself was also "pointless".<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:06 PM [sic], GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY - It likewise speaks to King Arthur, telling him that it was "pointless" trying to protect it....<br />
<br />
November 16, 1:06 AM, GMT. CASTLE CARBONEK - ...and likewise tells the fair-haired man, Peredur fab Ragnal, that it was "pointless" to have gone to all that trouble "merely to possess a rock".<br />
<br />
April 11, 1951, 1:07 AM, GMT. ARBROATH ABBEY - Macbeth...<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:07 PM, GMT. LEITH - Xanatos...<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:07 AM, GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY - King Arthur...<br />
<br />
November 16, 1:07 AM, GMT. CASTLE CARBONEK - and Peredur all listen in silence as the Stone of Destiny reveals that there is no single "Stone of Destiny"; any stone, anywhere in the world, can serve as a vessel for the "Spirit of Destiny". <!--which explains the seeming discrepancy in Shari's earlier tales about the Stone's movements at the time of the Exodus.--> It lists its various identities, including not only the ones from Shari's tales earlier, but others, such as the Philosopher's Stone, the Burden of Sisyphus, the Rock of Gibraltar, Uluru, and the Rosetta Stone. It climaxes with "I am the Stone of Destiny... I am the Rock of Ages! Do not dream of possessing me, mortal." It also tells Peredur (with Fleur also in the room, listening in) that King Arthur has awakened and returned from Avalon. Peredur is alarmed; Arthur was not supposed to awake for another two centuries. He leaves the room, planning to alert the leading members of the Illuminati to this upset of their plans. After he leaves, the Stone exchanges (surprisingly informal) greetings with a wooden bowl next to it: the Holy Grail.<br />
<br />
November 15, 2:23 PM, GMT. LEITH - Coldsteel (now repaired from his damages) returns what's left of Coyote to Xanatos, as well as the Coyote Diamond (about which Xanatos states that he's "just its minder"). As per their agreement, Xanatos permanently deactivates Coldsteel's tracking device. "Pleasure doing business with you," says Coldsteel.<br />
<br />
November 15, 8:13 PM, GMT. KNIGHT'S SPUR. Even after this revelation of the Stone of Destiny's true nature, Macbeth admits to King Arthur that he's still glad it was returned to Scotland. The London clan invite Hudson, Lexington, Coldstone and Coldfire to stay with them a while. Coldstone is hesitant, pointing out that Coldsteel is still at large. "Aye, lad," says Hudson, "but it's a mighty big world...."<br />
<br />
November 16, 5:44 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED. Thailog finally checkmates Shari, who merely tells how the Stone of Destiny was eventually returned to Westminster Abbey after its 1950 "theft" – though some believe that only a duplicate was returned in its place – and how it was at last taken to Edinburgh "without incident" the day before. Thailog asks her if that's all she knows about the Stone of Destiny. Shari replies that there's one last tale – opening with Owen and Macbeth upon the battlements of Castle Wyvern, by Goliath in stone sleep, waiting....<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
After over a year, "Rock of Ages" has finally been released, bringing the Stone of Destiny story to a satisfying conclusion.<br />
<br />
The struggle over the Stone of Destiny between Xanatos and his robots (including Coldsteel and Coyote) on one side, and the gargoyles (including the reinforcements of Coldstone and Coldfire), Macbeth, and King Arthur continues, extending even into the daytime, as the ColdTrio and Coyote battle it out (appropriately enough, at Coldstream Bridge). Coyote finally receives the same fate as his four predecessors (demolished by Coldstone), and Coldsteel damaged enough to be forced to retreat. There are hints that the Coyote series is moving closer to full sentience; Coldsteel speaks thoughtfully of the robot's potential.<br />
<br />
Xanatos achieves a victory, of a sort, successfully making off with the Stone, which finds its way to the Illuminati leadership. Yet, all four of the humans fighting over it (Macbeth, Arthur, Xanatos, and the Illuminati's leader, the newly-introduced Peredur fab Ragnal) learn from the Stone how pointless their struggle ultimately is, for the Stone is far more than a mere rock; it is a transcendent force that no mortal can ultimately possess. The scene where it makes this revelation to them is one of the most moving moments in the story. (And typically, Xanatos alone among the four does not seem awed, merely listening to the Stone with his usual sneaky smile.)<br />
<br />
We meet not only Peredur, the head of the Illuminati, at Carbonek, but also [[Duval]] (introduced in [[The Journey|"The Journey"]] and now on-stage at last as an ominous-looking cyborg), and Fleur (aka Blanchefleur, who ranks as one of the Illuminati's three Number Threes) – providing one of the greatest jolts in the series. Greg Weisman's original announced plan was for Peredur (under the name of Percival) and Duval to be the same person; now it turns out that they are separate people. (Few readers will ever take [[:Category:Canon-in-training|"canon-in-training"]] for granted again!) And Peredur and Fleur learn, to their consternation, that Arthur is awake and abroad in the outside world again - two hundred years ahead of schedule (which contains a hint of what hour of need Arthur was originally supposed to be awakened for in the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]]). Peredur, shaken, plans to alert the upper echelon members of the Society at once.<br />
<br />
Shari continues to narrate the story of the Stone, bringing it down to the present day – and, in fitting style, concluding at the very point that #7 begins. To quote Goliath in [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]], "Things have come full circle."<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters ===<br />
* [[Edward I]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Robert the Bruce]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Cormac Maccarthy]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]]<br />
* [[Duval]]<br />
* [[Peredur fab Ragnal]]<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Coldstream Bridge]]<br />
* [[Arbroath Abbey]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Holy Grail]]<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Bannockburn]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
The title of this chapter is a reference to the famous hymn composed by Reverend Augustus Toplady, inspired by the refuge he found in a cave in Somerset from a thunderstorm in 1775.<br />
<br />
Shari concludes her account of the Stone of Destiny's history, including [[Edward I]]'s seizing it in [[Timeline#995-1994|1296]], Robert the Bruce giving a piece of it to his Irish ally Cormac Maccarthy after the [[Battle of Bannockburn]] in [[Timeline#995-1994|1314]], which would become the [[Blarney Stone]], and the [[Timeline#995-1994|1950]] theft from Westminster Abbey (already alluded to in [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]). All of these are actual stories about the Stone of Destiny, rather than inventions of the comic book.<br />
<br />
Macbeth is depicted as taking part in the Battle of Bannockburn, on the Scots' side.<br />
<br />
When Xanatos signals Coldstone and Coldfire to return, they are in [[Tibet]]; apparently they had gone back there following the events of [[Possession|"Possession"]].<br />
<br />
Peredur fab Ragnal, introduced in this episode, is apparently the Gargoyles Universe version of Sir Percival. "Peredur" is the Welsh version of Percival; "fab Ragnal", Welsh for "son of Ragnal", alludes to Roger Lancelyn Green's depiction of Percival as the son of Sir Gawain and Lady Ragnell (Green's retelling of the Arthurian cycle is one of Greg Weisman's favorite versions). (Presumably, Peredur reckons his descent from Ragnal because Percival was raised by his mother in the various renditions of his story.)<br />
<br />
The Stone of Destiny lists among its other identities (besides those that Shari mentioned in her story): the Stone of Mora (the stone upon which the Kings of Sweden were crowned until the [[Timeline#995-1994|15th century]]), the [[Philosopher's Stone]] (a magic stone sought by alchemists which could turn lead into gold), the [[Burden of Sisyphus]] (in Greek mythology, Sisyphus was condemned to eternally push a mighty rock up a hill in the Underworld), the [[Rock of Gibraltar]], the [[Pillars of Hercules]] (the original name, in the classical world, of the Straits of Gibraltar), [[Uluru]] (a sacred mountain in [[Australia]], also known as Ayer's Rock), and the [[Rosetta Stone]] (the stone that French linguist Jean-Francois Champollion used to discover how to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics, now on display in the British Museum).<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=841 Chronological adaptation Chapter IX]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Rock and Roll|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Eight: "Rock & Roll"]]''' <br />
| '''[[The Gate|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Ten: "The Gate" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Shari&diff=39596Shari2023-12-01T02:12:07Z<p>Merlyn: /* Real World Background */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Shari.JPG|thumb|200px|Shari in 1996]]<br />
<br />
'''Shari''' is a [[human]] female and a member of the ninth rank of the [[Illuminati]]. She is also [[Thailog]]'s executive assistant. In [[Timeline#Before 994|971 AD]], she was known as '''Shahrizad''' while [[Alesand]] referred to her as '''the Dark Lady'''.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
[[Image:Shahrizad_The_Promise.JPG|thumb|left|300px|Shahrizad tells a story in 971.]]<br />
<br />
In 971 AD, a troupe of entertainers called the Light-Bringers traveled to [[Wyvern Hill]] shortly after construction on [[Castle Wyvern]] began. Known at that time only as Shahrizad, the storyteller, gathered several of the locals – noble and peasant; human and gargoyle – around and began telling the story of the [[Three Brothers]]. ''([[The Promise|"The Promise"]])''<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#1996|1996 AD]], now known as '''Shari''', for reasons not yet known, infiltrated the [[Labyrinth]] on [[Halloween]], and met [[Talon]], [[Maggie the Cat|Maggie]] and [[Claw]], as well as [[Goliath]] and [[Brooklyn]]. Upon meeting the [[clones]], she asked [[Al]] to tell her of their origins. ''([[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]])''<br />
<br />
After [[Thailog]] attacked the Labyrinth, and took back control of the clones, Shari volunteered to head to the [[Eyrie Building]] to warn Goliath. ''([[Masque|"Masque"]])'' But, she was lying as she next showed up at [[Nightstone Unlimited]] and, after offering to become Thailog's new executive assistant, revealed to him that she was a high-ranking member of the Illuminati. ''([[Bash|"Bash"]])'' Thailog brought Shari into his service and she began telling him a series of stories (generally shortly before Thailog turned to [[Stone Sleep|stone]] at dawn). ''([[Reunion|"Reunion"]], [[The Rock|"The Rock"]], [[Rock & Roll|"Rock & Roll"]], [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]])'' <br />
<br />
She continues to spend time in the Labyrinth during the day, ''([[The Lost|"The Lost"]])'' and acts as a spy for Thailog. When [[Maggie the Cat]] went into labor, Shari informed Thailog and was later surprised when she learned that Thailog had let them all go. A few nights later, she watched Goliath's hearing on television with Thailog. ''([[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]], [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]], [[New Rules|"New Rules"]])''<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Characteristics==<br />
[[Image:ThailogShari.JPG|thumb|left|160px|Thailog carries Shari. A dark mirror image of Goliath and [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]].]]<br />
[[Image:Shari2.JPG|thumb|120px|Shari's Illuminati pendant.]]<br />
<br />
Shari (pronounced "Share-ee") is apparently a young woman of Arab ethnicity. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10517][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10218] However, given the Illuminati's use of rejuvenation drugs, she may be older than she appears.<br />
<br />
Shari has described herself as "partial to long stories" as well as a "storyteller". She has expressed the desire to be told stories by others (for example Al in the Labyrinth) and tell stories to others (for example Thailog). Shari usually begins her stories with the phrase "The story is told – though who can say if it be true – . . ."<br />
<br />
Shari is Thailog's assistant even though she is much higher in Illuminati rank. Given Thailog's personality, it is unlikely he views anyone as his superior. Despite her higher rank, Thailog has threatened Shari on several occasions, despite the threats Shari never seems to be afraid of Thailog. It is most likely that they each see themselves as the other's superior and both believe that they are only humoring the other by letting them believe otherwise. <br />
<br />
{{Clear}}<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]] (First Appearance)<br />
* [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
* [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
* [[Reunion|"Reunion"]]<br />
* [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]<br />
* [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]]<br />
* [[The Lost|"The Lost"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]]<br />
* [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
* [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
* [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
* [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
* [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
* [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
* [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
[[Image:La_Premier_Nuit)de_Scheherazade_by_Leon_Carre.JPG|thumb|240px|La Premièr Nuit de Schéhérazade by Léon Carré]]<br />
[[Image:NightstoneThroneRoom.JPG|thumb|left|240px|Telling a story to a would-be-king.]]<br />
In the collection known as ''One Thousand and One Nights'' (with written versions of the text dating as old as the 14th Century, with the individual stories likely dating to the 8th Century or earlier), the character of '''Shahrizad''' in the overarching frame story was the elder daughter of the Vizier to the King Shehriyar (Shahriyar in other transliterations). The Vizier was tasked for three years to provide the King with a new bride to wed every night only to be that bride's executioner the following morning: the overreacting outcome of the King discovering his first wife to be unfaithful to him. When the Vizier could not find any more eligible brides for the King, his daughter Shahrizad offered herself as a bride. The Vizier promptly refused to put his daughter's life at risk, but the "wise, witty, prudent" Shahrizad had a plan and ultimately convinced him to declare her intentions to the King.<br />
<br />
That first night, in the guise of a dying wish, Shahrizad asked the King if she could see her younger sister, Dunyazad, one last time. Shortly after her arrival, Dunyazad follows her sister's instructions from the day before and prompts her sister to share one of her "pleasant stories" to pass the time. Shahrizad then begins her tale of the "Trader and the Jinn" which itself is just the frame story for three additional tales. Dawn arrives before Shahrizad can even finish the first story-in-the-story, and the King chooses to spare her life so that she can continue the following night. Shahrizad's effort to stall her inevitable execution would proceed for nearly three years, in which time she would give birth to the King's three sons. By the time Shahrizad finished her thousand and one nights of storytelling, King Shehriyar had fallen in love with her and ended the nightly threat to her life, proclaiming her his Queen. <br />
<br />
The more often recognized spelling of Scheherazade is, in fact, a German spelling of the Persian transliteration of Shīrazād (شهرزاد) from 1728. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Scheherazade] John Payne, credited with the first English translation of stories that covered the modern association of 1,001 nights in 1882, went with the spelling of Shehrzad. The more widely published English translation from Sir Richard F. Burton went with the spelling of Shahrazad. <br />
<br />
Alesand's description of Shari as the '''Dark Lady''' is a reference to the character associated with several of [[William Shakespeare]]'s sonnets, believed to be written between 1591-1595. Described as having dark physical features, Shakespeare writes having an intimate relationship with the Dark Lady. It is uncertain whether the sonnets were autobiographical in nature or fictional, but scholars have attempted to identify who could have been the Dark Lady in Shakespeare's lifetime. <br />
<br />
Conflating Shari as the Dark Lady suggests a connection with the William Shakespeare of the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]]. Given that its already been teased that the Bard of ''Gargoyles'' knew [[Macbeth]] (though unaware of the Scottish King's true nature and history), it is curious to now consider two immortals having an impact on Shakespeare's timeless works. But for the time being, until such scenes play out in a canonical story, it is best to remember Shari's own disclaimer that while the story may be told, ''"who could say if they be true?"''<br />
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<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
[[Image:Shari_Sketch_Hedgecock.JPG|thumb|200px|left|Shari character sketch by David Hedgecock]]<br />
[[Image:ZehraFazal.JPG|thumb|200px|Zehra Fazal]]<br />
While Disney rarely found any issue to address in the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic, one critique was Shari's "The story is told . . ." introductions, which they felt was too awkward. Ultimately, the introductions were kept. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10817]<br />
<br />
While writing for the comic book, [[Greg Weisman]] mentally casts new characters so he can hear a voice. For Shari, his actor of choice is [http://www.zehrafazal.com/ Zehra Fazal]. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11829] Zehra was even used as a real life model for Shari's design. Zehra played Shari in the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles|2009 Gathering]] Radio Play, [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns|"Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns"]]. She also lends her voice to the characters of [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Halo Halo] and [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Cassandra_Savage Cassandra Savage] in the third season of ''[[Young Justice]]''.<br />
<br />
Additionally Zehra voiced General Yunan in episodes of ''[[Amphibia]]'', one of which is the Season 2 finale "True Colors", that includes a reference to ''Gargoyles'' and has [[Keith David]] as the voice of King Andrias.<br />
<br />
Back when [[Marvel Comics]] held the license to ''[[Gargoyles (Marvel Comics)|Gargoyles]]'', Zehra wrote a letter to the creative team stating [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] to be a favorite character of hers. The letter saw print in [[Blood From A Stone|Issue 4]].<br />
<br />
The ''Gargoyles'' podcast, ''[[Voices from the Eyrie]]'', launched in 2021 and the introduction was narrated by Zehra Fazal opening with the phrase that Shari begins each of her stories with. [https://www.spidey-dude.com/category/podcasts/voices-podcast/] While it has yet to be confirmed in the podcast itself, it's unlikely that this is a coincidence.<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheherazade '''Shahrizad'''] at Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia<br />
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Lady_(Shakespeare) '''Dark Lady'''] at Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMjMu-gbhaE Shari speaks!]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Humans]]<br />
[[Category:Illuminati]]<br />
[[Category:Real world characters]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=GargWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=39591GargWiki talk:Community Portal2023-11-28T13:49:30Z<p>Merlyn: /* Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki */</p>
<hr />
<div>Since someone suggested it earlier, I decided to go ahead and open up the community portal for general discussions/suggestions for the whole of GargWiki. Enjoy! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 17:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Yay! Thank you Moeen. Now I have a place to make a suggestion: Does the side and border of the website have to be bright white? I like the dark blue of the rest of the site, it is easier on the eyes, but the white is hard on the eyes. Maybe it could be some other color, such as light blue? I know this is minor but little aesthetic things impact a website's overall viewing experience. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:06, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:You're welcome. :-) As for the background, I think in order to change it you have to edit the default skin used by the wiki, which is not something I know how to do, but I'm sure it can be done. Speaking of knowing how to do things, the link to [[:Help:Contents|Help]] on the sidebar links to a page that doesn't even exist! It would be nice if you could actually get help from the help page. Maybe some of the people running this place can put something there? Surely there's a MediaWiki manual for this site? Also, we could put up some general guidelines for writing articles on the GargWiki in the help section or on a related page. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:20, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Yes! A very good idea. And filling out the Help page would also be good. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:49, 9 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Italics==<br />
Got another question. I've gone through the wiki and italicized all capitalized references to ''Gargoyles'' the television show and ''Gargoyles'' the property. Should references to Gargoyles the comic book also be italicized? Right now the wiki is inconsistent, but I have seen ''Gargoyles: Bad Guys'' italicized. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:21, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Just my opinion, but I do think the title of both the television series and the comic book series (as opposed to the titles of episodes/issues) should be consistently italicized - gdw<br />
<br />
:I've been using Wikipedia conventions (which I always fall back on in cases of confusion), which basically say television series, plays, films, comic book series, etc are all italicized. Episode titles are not italicized, but they are put in inverted commas "". On GargWiki we tend to use both italics and quotation marks for episode citations, but I think that's a special case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::So I went through and changed all the ones I could find. But here's a question. We're italicizing the names of episodes and comic issues in this Wiki. Should we also italicize the parenthises? The current state seems slightly inconsistent. My personal preference is to leave the parenthises non-italicized, but my main interest is to standardize the formatting throughout the Wiki. What format should we set? We could do it like this: ''("[[Monsters]]")'' or like this: (''"[[Monsters]]"''). -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:29, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::Are we italicizing the episodes and comic issues? I'm not sure that's consistent on the wiki either. But my opinion of it is that it is the citation that is italicized, not the episode. So I prefer italicizing the parenthises too, but that's just my preference. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 17:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Creating new pages==<br />
OK, I'm still a bit new to wiki-ing, so I'm not familiar with all the procedure. I'd like to add a new page for the Disney Adventures comic "A Study In Stone" (which would be counted in Apocrypha, of course, but I don't knw how to make a new page, or even if I can, not being a mod. Help? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14 September 2007<br />
<br />
:You absolutely can! Anyone can create a page, and you can do it in one of two ways.<br />
:'''The first way:''' if you edit a page to include a link to your required article (in this case by adding the text <nowiki>[[A Study In Stone]]</nowiki>) it will produce a red (broken) link. Note that, when you edit a page to make a link like this, you can just use the preview button and you don't even need a to save. Next, you click on the red link (as if it was a non-broken, regular link), and it will take you to that page's "edit page". From there you can edit the page as if it already existed, and when you save it'll be right there.<br />
:'''The second way:''' you type in the title you want in the search bar to the left of the screen and push "Go". It will tell you that "No page with <font color="red">this exact title</font> exists". If you click on the red link on the words "this exact title", it will send you to the edit page of the page you want.<br />
:If you want to practice first, try creating your own user page by clicking on the link to [[User:Demonskrye]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Much thanks! The article for [[A Study in Stone]] is now up and viewable in the [[:Category:Apocrypha|Aprocrypha category]]. We can move it into one of the sub-categories, but until "Apocrypha Epsiodes" becomes something like "Apocrypha Storylines", I don't think there's an appropriate one for it. Also, I'd suggest that we put the info for making a new page into the now empty "Help" section.<br />
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A similar question. I've now done a couple of articles for the Disney Adventures comics, so I think we could use a "Disney Adevntures" subcategory in [[:Category:Apocrypha]]. I checked over on MediaWiki, but I'm still confused about how a subcategory is made. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 17 September 2007<br />
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:Those pages look pretty good. Creating a category is just like creating a page, except that you need to include the "Category:" prefix (note the colon). So either add the category to a page and use the red link, or type "Category:Whatever" into the search bar and hit "go", then proceed as before. For a subcategory, you just need to categorize the category. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Help==<br />
Since there's nothing in the help section, at some point I'll copy the help pages from MediaWiki here. In the meantime, you can find all the help you need [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents here]. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Google rankings==<br />
On 19 September 2007 (about 7 pm GMT), a search for 'Gargoyles' on Google turns up GargWiki at number 92 (the Gargoyles page on Wikiquote is 93). 'Gargoyles+Disney' is even worse at 132, and even then the link is to Category:Apocrypha (there's another link to the Episode Guide at 145). 'Gargoyles+TV' has a link to Grimorum at 18, but GargWiki doesn't appear until 75 (Talk:Main Page).<br />
<br />
Obviously, this is not a great situation to be in. Wikia has a few suggestions to improve the rankings [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Toughpigs/10_steps_to_raise_your_wiki%27s_Google_ranking here]. Section 2 is particularly interesting. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:24, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:So perhaps our rankings would be better if the name of the main page was something like "GargWiki - The Disney's Gargoyles Wiki" rather than the way we have it now, which Google may not get? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 19 September 2007<br />
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::I don't feel that Google rankings are as important as other might think, and our priority should be to improve the content here as best we can. But regardless, whatever you do '''''don't spam or vandalize other sites with links to GargWiki'''''. It is precisely [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/G._Bishansky this] kind of behavior (see [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=2669 here] for a more specific example) that got us blocked from Wikipedia, and probably other sites as well. If that happens, we'll be down even ''lower'' than we are now with the rankings. So please keep that in mind. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::That's true. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I never meant to even imply that spamming other sites was in any way a good thing. Cos it's not. Seriously.<br />
:::But changing the name of the Main Page might not be a bad idea, as long as we can do it without causing too much disruption. "GargWiki - The Gargoyles Wiki" is probably enough, or just "Gargoyles Wiki" as inour logo. But it might make the page look odd. I notice that the Main Pages on Wikipedia and Wikia sites don't have titles, as other pages do. Is there some way we could do that here? If not... maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:12, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Community Portal upgrade==<br />
I'm thinking of moving this page to [[GargWiki talk:Community Portal]], and turning [[GargWiki:Community Portal]] into an actual project page. I mean a proper "Welcome to the Community Portal, and here's what we got going on" sort of project page. We could have links to all the ongoing discussions throughout the wiki, which would be useful, and I'm also thinking of having a "Requested pages" section, where users can (basically) request a page. Thoughts? Comments? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:54, 8 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:Sounds like a good idea. This site really does need a page introducing new users or potential users to how things work around here. Plus we really need some guidelines, and given that there doesn't seem to exist any anywhere on this site, this would be good place to set some up.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 14:43, 11 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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::[[GargWiki:Policy]] has some behavioural guidelines, if that's what you mean. Is that what you meant? But anyway, since this could be a complicated reorganisation I'll start writing up a draft of the new page before I start doing anything. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:28, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:::I've written up a page - not quite everything I had originally intended, but it's a good start and we can always expand it later. I'll make the switch-over now. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:12, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
:::Done. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:20, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
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==A history lesson==<br />
Does anyone here know how GargWiki came to be made? When was it started, and who by, and what prompted its creation? I'm just asking because it would be nice to get a little background (not necessarily a lot) to flesh out the page [[GargWiki:About]]. I know that it must have been created on or shortly before 26 July 2006, because that's the first edit I can find and it's also when [[User:Jeb]], [[User:Greg Bishansky]] and [[User:Trio]] were made administrators. If anyone does know, feel free to answer either here or at [[GargWiki talk:About]]... or just add the information to the page. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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== Upgrading the Wiki ==<br />
<br />
Looking into Matt's suggestion for an Appearances section, I've noticed that this wiki lacks some of the functionality of other wikis because it's out of date. In particular, the version of MediaWiki used here is 1.5.1, whereas the latest version is 1.11.0. Granted we usually don't use the full functionality of the wiki, but it's still useful to stay up to date. Not being a system admin, I can't update the wiki myself, but it would be nice if whoever is the system admin is would do so.<br />
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As far as using Wikipedia's referencing system, to install it follow the installation instructions [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation here]. It's only two steps, but requires accessing the system, something I can't do, but a system admin would be able to do.<br />
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P.S. Happy New Years to everyone! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 03:00, 1 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:I commented on this at [[Talk:Appearences Section]], but I'll repeat myself here: you can search for admins by using [[Special:Listusers]], but the ones that are most likely to be able to help you are Greg B, Matt, or Jeb.<br />
:Happy New Year to you too. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:34, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Sounds like you guys know more about the Wikipedia software than I do. You'll have to talk to Jeb or Greg B. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 15:36, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Alright, thanks. I'll inform Jeb and Greg B. on their talk pages and see it they can do something about it.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:44, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Ten years later, I now have access to the server. I haven't upgraded the wiki yet, but I will as soon as I am convinced I know what I'm doing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 2 March 2018 (PST)<br />
:Judging by the lack of dark colors, I'm guessing things are happening, here. Call me patient and excited to see what's in store :) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:22, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
::Still being worked on. We need to get the skins back in place, and there are other glitches to fix, but the wiki has been upgraded. Notice that the buttons are back. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:23, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
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== Speculation ==<br />
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Poking around the wiki, I think that there are a few too many places where personal speculation makes its way into the articles. Now there's speculation that I think is OK and speculation that I think doesn't belong here. Speculation that I think is OK is speculation that's based on established real world or Gargoyles universe fact. For example, since we know that gargoyle children generally receive physical characteristics from both parents, often favoring the appearance of the same gender parent and the coloration of the opposite gender parent, it would be fair to speculated that children of know gargoyle couples will probably resemble both of their parents, possibly even in that pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Artus will definitely look like a lavender Broadway, but the suggestion that he might have some of Broadway's physical features and Angela's coloring would be OK. If we didn't know that Elisa was going to be dead by 2198, I would consider it fair to say that she probably would be, given that she would be 230 years old by that time, which is well beyond human life expectancy as we currently know it. Short of major scientific breakthroughs or magical intervention, it would be safe to say that Elisa would probably not be around in roughly two centuries. I think Greg Weisman speculation is also fair game. greg has suggested, but never outright confirmed, that Zafiro and the gargoyle beasts may both have vestigial limbs, Zafiro due to appearing to be four limbed and the beasts as an evolutionary leftover from their common ancestor with gargoyles. I feel no problem with putting that in as canon-in-training as a possibility rather than a certainty until we either have Greg say it's not so (leading to it being deleted) or see someone take x-rays a Zafiro and/or the beasts (leading to it becoming canon). What I'm not OK with is speculation that is based more on guesses or predictions of character's behavior. I took a section out of Zafiro's article that suggested that his hair coloration and facial features could be presumed to be fairly common among the Mayan clan. We don't have any way of knowing that. We apparently know from Greg as canon-in-training that Zafiro's snake-like body structure is very common, despite the fact that he is the only current member of the clan to have it. But for all we know, he could be the only gargoyle in the Mayan clan with white hair and a serpentine face. Similarly, I think there's too much assumption about future hatchlings and their knowledge of their biological parentage. It is OK to assume that Nashville will have a closer relationship with Brooklyn and Katana for a while at least because they will be the only adult gargoyles he spends the majority of his time with. But once Brooklyn and family return to Manhattan, who knows? He may become particularly close to Angela or Broadway or Lex as well. And we have no evidence that Brooklyn and Katana will teach him to put importance on biological parentage. Yes, when he starts asking questions, he'll probably either be aware that Brook and Katana are his biological parents. But if they place no importance on that, if they tell him "We are two of your parents and we love you, but you have other parents and other family out there and some day you will get to see them and they will be just as much your family", it won't matter so much to him that the rest of the clan isn't related to him by blood. Same deal with Angela. It's more tempting to assume that she'll put more emphasis on biology because she is so interested in her own parentage. But things could change. When Nashville arrives and she actually sees the rest of the clan start to parent him, she may start to feel differently about what communal parenting really means. I think it's highly likely that she might tell her kids that she's their biological mother before they necessarily ask (though it's still not something I would assume). But I just don't think we can assume how she'll be raising kids who have yet to be conceived.<br />
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Thoughts? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:47, 7 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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== Apocrypha ==<br />
At the head of any CIT article is a banner making it clear that's all it is. Shouldn't we have something similar for Apocrypha. To be clear, I think it's 100% appropriate for there to be articles here on, say, Dr. Phobos or Judge Bates, but shouldn't we have a (red?) flag of some kind at the top? -- gdw<br />
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:This problem has been raised at [[Talk:Angels in the Night]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:26, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::I'm glad this has come up again since the recent appearances of many of these apocrypha pages has beenn irking me. I like the idea a lot of a red flag banner at the top of such pages. I want this site to be about all things Gargoyles, including the non-canon stuff, but I think there needs to be a well seen line between the canon and the not canon, and that line is nearly invisible on pages like [[Dr. Phobos]] and [[Judge Bates]]. Frankly, I don't even like the apocyrpha sections on pages like [[Brooklyn]]. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:59, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::If you do this, I think you should only provide the banners for in-universe apocryphal articles, and not the out-of-universe articles (issues, episodes, the video-game, etc.). -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:59, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::Actually, [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]], I was thinking this was something you'd be better at then myself. I have no idea how to create a banner. And I think we would all trust your skills and judgement. I don't mean to seem like I'm assigning you this though, but if you want to do it at some point, that'd be cool. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:45, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::::To be honest, this is way down at the bottom of "things I plan to do". Way down. Since I'm not entirely settled on the idea anyway, I probably won't get round to it for a long while.<br />
:::::But making a banner isn't so hard. Have a look at the source code at [[Template:CIT article]], then just change the details a bit. You don't need to know what it all does (I don't), but you can figure out enough to get by. The text is easy to change, but you can also change the background (as long as you know the hex code of the colour you want) and other things. Then it's just a matter of tweaking until it looks the way you want it to. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:04, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::::I've created a [[Template:Apocrypha article]] and implemented it on some TGC character pages. It's not quite a banner, but let me know what you think. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 06:49, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I love it. Great job man! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I'm a little bit concerned that some people might not see it because it's so small and so far over to the right. But otherwise, I think it works quite well. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 09:37, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I've increased the width and the font size a small amount, so hopefully it should be a bit more noticeable. Better? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:48, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:::Yes. I hadn't realized that the banner hang out at the right edge of the window, regardless of size, so I withdraw my concern about it being too far to the right. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:31, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== Joining GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
Okay, we ''really'' need a mechanism set up by which new users can join GargWiki. If we're still concerned about spamming, then we should get a system that is completely disconnected: something like the Ask Greg comment room, but just for this... Or we could actually redirect users to the Ask Greg comment room. Get them to say 'I have registered as such-and-such, please allow me to edit GargWiki'. Or something. Would this be possible? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 07:13, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Could someone please attend to Antiyonder's request for editing powers? (I still feel like going through Station Eight is a pretty awkward way to go about this.) -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:36, 6 September 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:[[User:Dbdude01]] posted earlier today in the S8 Comment Room for editing privileges . . . from the Recent Changes page, looks like he registered on August 10th --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:20, 18 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
::Got it. Thanks, Pheon. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:29, 21 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
:::No prob, it's nice to see you around these parts as well man :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:19, 21 August 2015 (PDT) <br />
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== Family tree ==<br />
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Behold! A day and a half of my life wasted: [[User:Supermorff/Tree]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:That is very cool Great job, Supermorff. Hey, are you going to the Gathering this year? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:06, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Nice job! Do you think we could put it in an article with a text version that would allow people to easily get to the articles for all these individuals? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I had wanted to use the same templates as they use at Wikipedia (have a look, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Normandy#Family_tree), in which each box can contain arbitrary wiki markup (including links), but our current version of the MediaWiki software doesn't seem to support that. We could do another version with links, but plotting family trees in text alone is difficult and looks a bit rubbish if it's not done well. Might be worth a try though.<br />
::As for the Gathering, alas I will not be able to make it. My last year of university is wrapping up, and I have suspicions that two flights acros the Atlantic would not help me with revision. I could be wrong. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:29, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Another Character Page Idea==<br />
So, I'd say the Appearences sections on the character pages have been great and have really added to the information on this site. So, in response to the success of that section, I have another idea. Notable Quotes. Just take 1-5 quotes from a character and put them on the page if we want to. I was thinking making a new section called Notable Quotes and adding them there. I wouldn't want more than five or so, least it get cluttered. Another idea is putting a quote at the top of the character's page, but I feel that there is too much going on up there already. So, what do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:31, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Hmm. Maybe. I am skeptical. Couldn't we just link to [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles the ''Gargoyles'' page at Wikiquote]? On the Main Page maybe? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:21, 8 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==MediaWiki software update==<br />
Has there been any progress on updating the MediaWiki software that this site uses? I tried adding the possibility of collapsible tables. It didn't seem too complicated when I read how to do it, but it hasn't worked anyway, at least not as expected. I assume it's just not compatible with the version we've got. The current stable version of MediaWiki is 1.12, and we're still running 1.5. Time for an upgrade? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== image requests ==<br />
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:''Moved from [[GargWiki:Community Portal#Requested images]]''<br />
Hi, guys. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be fulfilling these image requests soon now that I have plenty of time on my hands. I hope to have them done by the weekend. Take care! [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 12:20, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
:Thanks DTaina! You rock!!! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Hey, guys. DT here. If you know of any articles that have low quality pics (such as VCR screenshots or logos), or if you just want more pics, don't hesitate to let me know so I can get to work. [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 17:25, 9 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Just a thought==<br />
So, I'm thinking of creating a [[Misconceptions and urban legends about Gargoyles]] page. Mostly as an answer to a lot of really wacky theories I've seen out there. Some, like ''"Gargoyles was originally an anime," "Disney hates Gargoyles and conspired to kill it," "Space-Spawn look like gargoyles," "The Gathering of the Gargoyles is always in Montreal," "Goliath embraced the human way in Mark of the Panther," "Lexington can't be gay because he went after Angela,"'' and so on and so forth. Thoughts? Suggestions? -{{unsigned|Greg Bishansky}}<br />
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:I like the page so far and the concept in general. I think we just need to figure out places we could link to it from so it's not just sitting there all by its lonesome. Possibilities include the Gargoyles TV series page and places in character or episode articles that mention these misconceptions. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14:38, 6 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Owen/Puck==<br />
Okay, so far, we've merged all alternate identities for characters into single entries. Molly and Banshee are now merged. Jon and John are now merged, etc. What do we do about Owen and Puck? I asked Greg his thoughts and even he thinks that one is not so clear cut. ''"It's a judgement call. I'd tend to combine them under a Puck/Owen Burnett entry with both the Puck and the Owen Burnett entries redirecting. But I think you should discuss it with the gwiki crew. Get a consensus."'' So, thoughts? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:I think it can go either way. I see no problem with having them in separate entries, but if you guys want to change it, then that's fine by me. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 17:55, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:It's a tough call. It would make sense to do the merge of aliases and alternate forms across the board. But the Puck/Owen thing just feels a little different. Aliases are fairly simple: you just pick the name that the character either had first or uses most frequently. "Dominique Destine" is just Demona's human alias. "Talon" is the name Derek Maza adopted after he was mutated, but his family still calls him "Derek." Alternate forms for one of Oberon's children are a little more difficult, but it seems that there's usually a primary identity we can all agree on, like with Banshee. And speaking of Banshee, her disguise was revealed in the same episode where she was introduced. The fact that Owen is Puck, of course, wasn't revealed until near the end of season two. And Puck is more dedicated to playing his role than any other fey we've seen with the possible exception of Titania (and even in that case, there isn't the marked difference in personality between Titania and Anastasia that there is between Owen and Puck). Owen almost is a separate person because Puck is committed to making him one. So should Owen retain a separate entry? And on a more practical note, would we be looking at an unusually long article if we merged the two or just less repetition? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 20:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I definitely think they should not be merged. As [[User:Demonskrye]] said, they are two totally different entities. I think it's fine as is.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:53, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
Also, I'm not too crazy about merging [[Titania]] and Anastasia Renard. It feels too confusing to me for appearances sections and so on...what about episodes like [[Walkabout]] where Anastasia appears but not Titania. Just my two cents.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I suppose if we are going to be consistent be have to merge them together. I mean with Talon/Derek, Jon/John the merger seems fairly easy and obvious and not very problematic. They are, afterall, the same person using alias'. With Oberon's Children, I wonder... PGFish makes a good point about appearances section issues. I dunno. The more I think about it, the tougher it seems. ultimately though, I feel we should be consistent. Puck and Owen are the same entity. Puck and Owen can't exist at the same time anymore than Derek and Talon can. So, I suppose I'd go for merging them. As for the Appearances Sections, I suppose we need to be consistent there as well and list all the episodes where either Puck or Owen (or any other alias' used by that entity) have appeared. It may be confusing, but simply remember that we are following the person, not the form of the person. Puck is always Puck, even when he is pretending to be Owen. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:47, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Yes, but Puck isn't Puck when he's Owen. It's not simply an alias, but a seperate entity. When Owen is around, Puck doesn't exist.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 01:01, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:This is exactly the reason I have by-and-large been against merging aliases and alternate identities, because I knew this was where it was heading. I firmly believe that Puck and Owen should have separate pages.<br />
:Before I get down to my personal opinions, here are a few logistical facts:<br />
:1. The naming issue. You can't very well call the merged page "Owen Burnett", since Owen is an identity created by Puck. You can't call it "Puck" because Puck has appeared in just 4 episodes, compared to Owen's 30+. You also can't call the page "Puck/Owen" or similar, because this will create a subpage of "Puck", which is a redirect and it will wreak havoc with the MediaWiki software. So where do you stick a page like this?<br />
:2. Do we intend to merge the various sections as well? Will we merge the Appearances sections? If so, are we going to list appearances (As Puck) or (As Owen), which we've avoided in other cases? Will we just keep two separate Appearances sections? Will we merge the History sections, and mention "As Owen", or "As Puck" every other paragraphs? What's the point?<br />
:Now for my personal opinions: We don't ''gain'' anything by merging the two articles, except a heaping pile of confusion for new visitors. If I wanted to look for specific information on Puck, I would not look in Owen's article, so I fail to see the benefit in forcing me to look through a combined article for both characters. And yes, I do believe that they are separate characters, not just because they have different appearances, voice actors and personalities. They also have very different spheres of influence in the ''Gargoyles'' universe - spheres which only overlap at young Alex.<br />
:Something to consider when comparing this to other examples: The once-separate identities of Anastasia and Titania have now mostly been combined. Does anyone expect that Anastasia will ever appear again, with no mention of Titania? And yet Owen continues to appear without mention that he is Puck. I wouldn't (in all honesty) be surprised if Puck appeared without mention that he was Owen. So those two situations are not really comparable.<br />
:Also, whereas Anastasia and Titania were written (and cast) with the knowledge that it would be revealed that they were the same person. It wasn't until "The Mirror" was already written that the writers realised that Owen and Puck were the same person. In all the other cases that we've merged, there has never really been any doubt that the two characters/names/identities were always supposed to be "the same". With Owen and Puck, they were initially different and later combined (obviously it made perfect sense and worked beautifully, but that's not the point).<br />
:My final thought: Consistency, which is all fine and dandy, is a secondary consideration to making the best, clearest and most helpful encyclopedia that we can. We don't need to minimize the number of articles we've got, and this isn't Wikipedia in which we'd need to merge all similar characters just so they're notable enough to be mentioned at all. Merging in ''this'' case is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
:On a separate-but-related note, the Owen article is woefully short. More than half of the History section is actually about Puck, which could well be causing some of the confusion. We should expand the history section - give specific examples of Owen doing his job (keeping Elisa out in "The Edge", pulling a gun in "Enter Macbeth", taking the swab in "Double Jeopardy", summoning the commandoes in "Masque" and "Bash"). Some parts of the Characteristics section (such as his turning to stone by Demona, and his gaining a stone hand) should be mentioned in the History section in their proper context. We should mention that he's good at judo. We should add the anecdote about Owen being written with some unknown secret in his backstory, and then say how Greg and several other writers ''realized'', simultaneously and separately, that Owen and Puck were the same person. We should re-word the opening paragraph, so that Owen seems to be a character in his own right and not just some alias used by Puck, because he's more than that, and we should treat him as such. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Okay, after reading what Supermorff had to say, I want to change my vote. I think Owen and Puck should remain seperate. I think I know how to work this all out. I think alias' should be merged so Dominique Destine should be with Demona, John Castaway and Jon Canmore should be the same page, Talon and Derek, etc. These are the exact same person using different names and perhaps looking or acting different, but they are not new people. Meanwhile, alternate identities should remain seperate because they are two different people. <br />
::So, alias' merge, alternate identities remain seperate. What do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:23, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:::I agree with Supermorff 100%, too. You guys have my vote! [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:29, 13 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Young character pictures ==<br />
<br />
Recently a lot of pictures have been added of younger versions of several characters. These picures look great, and thanks both to GregW for suggesting the idea and DTaina for doing the hard work and providing them all! However, I would like to suggest that some of them be re-labelled to include either the age of the character or the year being depicted. So [[Princess Katharine]] is the best way of doing it (by the way, we need a young one of her too), but many others are less clear (I'm not sure why, but [[Bodhe]] seems like a particularly bad offender to me). Anyone agree? Disagree? Like pancakes? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:30, 16 January 2009 (CST)<br />
:Makes sense to me.--[[User:Gweisman|Gweisman]] 01:42, 17 January 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==A Scottish Family Tree==<br />
So, I unfortunately lack the photoshop skills, but I want to make a Family Tree of the Scottish royal family for the wiki. From [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] all the way down to [[Luach]] and [[Canmore]]. Anyone up for it? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 23:01, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:I was just pondering that this afternoon, actually. I'd suggest using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Familytree The end result then supports hyperlinks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_family#Family_tree I can do it, but not until after the Gathering. I'd have to import additional templates too. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 23:16, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::This has already been done! [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] has already made one [[User:Supermorff/Tree|here]]. It could perhaps use some updating given the new information, however. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 16:12, 15 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::I'm willing to update this and format it into a [[Scottish Royalty]] page or something, if Supermorff doesn't mind. But I'll need the original code. The family trees I've found are image files. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 22:53, 30 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::::When I started doing this (a very ''very'' ling time ago), I wanted to create the Familytree template here. However, I think we have out-of-date MediaWiki software on this site, so all I could do was produce the sourcecode and copy the picture from another wiki. The sourcecode is all listed on that page Matt linked to, but it won't work here. If you could make it work, I'd love to see it on its own page! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:31, 25 December 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==Things of a more... "adult" nature==<br />
So, thanks to Blue Mug-A-Guests at various Gatherings, and occasional tidbits at Ask Greg, I'm wondering, do we stick any of this into the GargWiki? We always said we'd be all encompassing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:15, 13 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Can we provide sources for it? Stuff at AskGreg is fair game, but I'm hesitant to add things directly from Blue Mug-a-Guests unless someone posted about it at AskGreg, thus giving Greg a chance to correct or whatever.<br />
:It being of adult nature doesn't bother me at all. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:10, 14 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Well, I started with a tiny one in Demona's entry, just to see how well it goes over. Maybe if it's not too awkward, we can add more where appropriate. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:59, 26 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And here's some bits from the Blue Mug, not sure where to put them in the entries, but I thought we'd keep them here for info. A bit of it is off. Greg never said Lex and Staghart would have sex, for example. And Jackal and Hyena are NOT having incestuous sex; they'll share someone, but Jackal isn't weird enough for Hyena. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 08:27, 10 July 2014 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:BM1.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM2.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM3.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
<br />
==Weapons==<br />
So, DTaina had a great idea about putting together entries for weapons. Kinda like what we did for [[Exo-Frame]]. Still trying to think of how we'd do it. Obviously, particle beams need an entry. Demona's various big fucking guns could get an entry. I'd love it to be [[Demona's Big Fucking Guns]] but I won't fight for it ;) --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:40, 20 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==New Screenshots==<br />
You may have noticed some screenshots getting replaced by higher quality PNG files. Well, recently DTaina and I downloaded the latter half of season two in German. The quality of the video and picture is beautiful. DVD quality even. Much better than the ToonDisney and Jetix versions we've been using. So, for characters that popped up in episodes not on DVD, we'll be replacing their images with high quality PNG files. This will be a timely process, I think. But worth it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 14:49, 16 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Already noticing the improvement! Nice work! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:45, 17 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Images ==<br />
<br />
I see lots of [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|unused images]] on the database. May I delete them, or do you guys prefer to stow images for later use? Also, I'd like to categorize images using a simple template I usually customize for each wiki in which I'm most active. Upon community approval, this would also be dependent of us having parser function work. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 07:06, 14 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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:You just linked to the uncategorised files. Unused files are [[Special:UnusedFiles|here]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 00:28, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::Doh. That's what I meant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 02:13, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Criteria for "Non-Canon" Art by Canon Artists==<br />
Since this issue just hit the fan, maybe it's time we really discussed this, and came up with official rules. I think a MAIN PIC needs to show the character off as best we can. If Greg Guler or Frank Paur were releasing art of characters, I'd be all for including them also. In other words, I want those pics up, so let's revise these rules. Here is what I'm thinking:<br />
<br />
Unofficial art by official artists is welcome on GargWiki. Encouraged even. But there should be certain criteria. Depicting a canon character is perfect. Depicting a non-canon scene is not allowed. For example, we have two main pics from Karine Charlebois. One depicting Katana and one depicting the Redemption Squad. Both are terrific and fit the proposed criteria perfectly. However, art of, let's say for example, Katana fighting Hakon even by an official artist like Charlebois or Paur, cannot be used because such a thing hasn't taken place in canon.<br />
<br />
Karine also has beautiful art of Brooklyn up, with everything we've seen since the end of "[[Phoenix]]." Except for the eye-patch. And since we don't know when he received his injury relative to when he received all his weapons and the armor, that art would not meet our criteria.<br />
<br />
What do you all think? Thoughts? Suggestions? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 10:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:I vote for canon pics. I feel that the purity of the canon material is more important than whether or not it looks good. Take Wikipedia for example. How many articles have you seen with grainy and badly drawn pictures of TV show characters, even though higher quality fanart pictures have always been available? We can have character models that were drawn behind the scenes. And we can have fanart here and there, but it shouldn't dominate the canon material. For me, canon and CiT should be above everything. And you guys can always count on me to touch up canon screenshots or scans that look a little sub par. What do you guys think? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:04, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::Taina, I think you missed what was being said. We're discussing revising the rules, with a VERY STRICT criteria to allow us to use the best resources we have. And as for wikipedia... I think it is a TERRIBLE website full of misinformation that is dumbing us down as a culture, and I refuse to use them as an authority on anything. And [http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality|Stephen Colbert agrees with me] ;)--[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:11, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::I'd revise the rules to never let fanart take the top spot. As a fan artist myself, I think I know where I'm coming from on this. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:24, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Yes, but you aren't a canon artist doing a fan-art, really the only ones who can respond to this with weight are Karine, Greg Guler, Frank Paur, Chris Jones, and anyone else who worked on the designs in the show/comic. For my part, I can see both sides of the argument, and have remained relatively neutral in these proceedings, however, if I am to cast a vote, I vote with in favor of GregXB's proposal providing that all of the safeguards and requirements he has requested are strictly enforced. --[[User:Griffinwyrm7|Griffinwyrm7]] 11:32, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
: Perhaps if the non-canon pics included some form of disclaimer identifying them as such in the captions? I'm not opposed to revising the rules, provided whatever rule we do eventually decide on is both clear and unambiguous. [[User:Algernon|Algernon]] 12:03, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: I agree with Greg that we should attempt to use the best picture available. But to me, the best picture available will always be canon over non-canon (or CiT) by default. Greg, I had the same thought about Karine's Brooklyn art in regards to the eye patch and armor and stuff and you should be able to see that by the same logic we cannot include the Katana picture. We have never seen Katana and the Phoenix together. I admit, I'm sure she has seen it plenty, but in the canon it has yet to happen. Therefore, by your own logic, the Katana picture isn't canon and shouldn't be allowed. But regardless of whether you accept that argument or not, the majority seems to be against the picture as the main pic, but fine with the compromose of having it lower on the page. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 14:58, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::Matt, no offense, but you are reaching so far, I want to ask you how the food in China is tasting. And what majority? There are three in favor of the pic... and who knows who else is going to come in to vote. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: If I read you correctly, your comment actually supports Greg's proposal. Greg said that we know Brooklyn will receive his injury and his gear, but not when. By the same logic, we know that Katana will someday travel with Brooklyn by way of the Phoenix, but not when. Unless Greg Weisman joins Scientology or something else that might severely distort the master plan, we know it's going to happen. So I don't see any harm in Karine's Katana pic. If someday we get more canon Gargoyles in some form and a better pic of Katana comes along, I would be in favor of using that pic instead. But right now, I think Karine's is the best we have. --[[User:Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
:::Except that it isn't canon. The fact that it is or isn't a superior pic is irrelevant. The quality of the picture is not the point. The point is that this site has always been about putting canon first, then CiT, then apocrypha. Bishansky has been one of the strongest supporters of this policy. It is only when that policy conflicts with his personal desires that he decides that a discussion needs to be had about the matter. At best, Karine's Katana picture only qualifies as CiT and the canon picture should take precedence.<br />
:::Look, Greg, this is a wiki. If you want your own Gargoyles site where you can do whatever you want regardless of what others think, that's fine. But don't try to hijack this site for that purpose. The community-based nature of this site means that we don't all always get our way. For instance, I HATE the negative and immature "reviews" of various apocrypha elements (specifically some TGC episodes) and I am greatly annoyed by the subjective statements, stupid captions, crude jokes and other unproffesional edits that litter many of the pages on this wiki. And I know I am not alone or even in the minority on a lot of it. But I choose my battles because this isn't my site. And it isn't yours either. It is a work of the all the contributors. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:29, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Matt, was there really a need to get this personal? Really. Yes, this is a community. Look at all the people here discussing this issue. I didn't just change the rules willy nilly. I called for an official discussion on this, and made a proposal. A proposal that we are discussing and voting on already. Yes, it was a little inappropriate to make that remark about how far you're reaching, I get that. But you had to get really personal. So stop accusing me of being Sauron. Were I Sauron, I'd have blocked everyone and done what I wanted, but no... I wanted to have an actual discussion and vote. And from the looks of things, you don't have the majority you were boasting about. Hell, we even had Katana's designer, Robby Bevard, another canon artist, come in and say the one in the comic is off model. If you have personal issues with me, you have my e-mail address. For the record, I have no personal issues with you. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: Do you specifically know someone who likes the Goliath Chronicles? If you do, please invite them to defend their opinions here. And I would also like to add that I wrote a very unflattering article about the Assassin on this wiki, which someone edited. And I respected that, because my opinions on the Assassin exist on other sites. But what is being suggested here does not seem unflattering. --[Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
I designed Katana, and colored the issue she appeared in. Ben Dunn was incredibly off model in many, many respects, (The world will never know just how much I had to redraw, and how much more I wished I had time for...) and had no knowledge of the series, he was ONLY brought on because deadlines needed to be met. As it is, I redrew half the pages Katana appeared on anyway and had to add all the weapons on Brooklyn. It was NOT the optimal art. If I'd had more time before the deadline, or the artist had been more open to redrawing pages, she'd be closer to on model and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion in the first place. I'd say use the cleaner full body shot by a different artist that worked on the books. Deadlines are the bane of this sort of thing... Didn't Enter Macbeth have retakes done? Didn't Vows have its ending changed after the first airing? Didn't the mutates all get complete redesigns after their first appearance? I'd say, at the very least, have the professional full body shot (by one of the folks that worked on the comic!) available on the wiki for viewing, even if its not the first and foremost pic.--[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 17:56, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I agree that Karine's art can stay, but it shouldn't be the foremost pic. It should be canon and CiT first, right? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:02, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Makes sense to me. I hate the final product as it appeared in the book for a variety of reasons, but... canon should be first. Maybe it can be really small. As is, I've always assumed that Katana will have some sort of redesign or tweaking anyway whenever she next appears in some form of media. Since the final art really was not good or ideal. --[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 18:17, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you agree Robby. And thanks for all your hard work, by the way.<br />
::As far as I can tell, no one has suggested that Karine's picture be completely taken off the site. Everyone seems to be alright with it being on Katana's page somewhere. It really just comes down to some of us prefering quality over canon and some of us prefering canon over quality. Obviously, I'm in the latter group.<br />
::As for the TGC pages. There are fans who like TGC. I'm not one of them, but that isn't the point. The point is that those pages take this site down a lot in my opinion. Most of us strive to make this site professional and objective and canon-centered and those pages make the site seem like a joke. And most of us are not laughing. That is my opinion, of course. I'd prefer to do away with all the nonsense myself, but I'm content to only worry about the canon and CiT material and resign myself to the fact that others will use this site to attack Gargoyles apocryphal material they didn't like.<br />
::Which brings me back to Katana. As a canon page with a depicted canon character I feel we should focus on her canon appearence. For good or ill, the canon picture is the canon picture for now and nothing is going to change that. If Karine (or whomever) produces a better quality CANON picture down the road, I'd love to replace the current canon picture with the new one. But until that point, what we have is what we have.<br />
::Or perhaps we should enlist Karine or other canon artists in re-drawing all the art we don't like into non-canon portraits and landscapes for use as canon material. Please. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 18:23, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
:::Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen. I'm fine with fixing up little animation errors, editing out grain and logos... but it has to stop somewhere. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:30, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::So recap -- this is really TWO issues in one -- 1) Do we allow unofficial art by official artists on GargWiki? AND 2) Would an unofficial piece of art be OK to take the main focus of the article, in particular, in cases when Canon material is ''also'' available (especially when the quality of the two works is being considered). The first issue is clearly the most non-controversial -- Everyone seems loves Karine's work on Katana, myself included (and that's not to mentioning her other unofficial work featured in the [[Dingo]], [[Redemption Squad]] and [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns]] pages). In my eye, the precedence of unofficial art by official artists is what allows us to have CIT to ''begin with'' -- Greg Weisman's own continued and unofficial work as creator of the show. As for the second issue, I give my vote for Canon material before CIT and anything else unofficial (this is why Apocrypha is located at the bottom of a character's page and why CIT is tagged at the top of the page or marked in {{CIT|blue type}} . . . but that doesn't mean that the unofficial work by the official artists can't be included in the Wiki. Just trying to clear things up a bit while adding my own two cents --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:36, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Tallying it all up, okay, I lost. Cool. That's democracy. We had an official discussion, and for now, I lost it. That's what democracy is. Good thing I don't throw my weight around here and behave like a dictator like certain people like to insinuate, and then not apologize when they get called on it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:Based on the outcome of this discussion, I've swapped back the positions of the Katana images so that the canon image appears first. (This seems to have slightly mucked up the position of the other images on the page, so if someone can figure out how to fix that please do - I'm sure this has changed since we upgraded wiki software.)<br />
:Robby, your comments about the process and the final artwork are very interesting. Would you be opposed to having them on the relevant wiki articles? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:59, 20 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
==JEB's Resignation==<br />
JEB recently resigned as our administrator. Of course we here at GargWiki thank him for getting this site started and for doing as much as he did since it's inception... which was quite a bit behind the scenes. How ever, we need another admin to become the primary point of contact for technical or administrative issues from this point forward. Scott Sakai (who runs the server with Gorebash) can take care of the patching and other server-side activities. However, someone else would need to take care of the administrative tasks (i.e. everything else that is done through the web interface). I would do it, but I have no idea how. So, is anyone interested in the position? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:47, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:I also have no idea how. I doubt any of the regular editors know how. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:21, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::No idea here either. I was gonna recommend Supermorff! Guess not. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:03, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::Yeah, my first instincts said Supermorff too. Hmm, anyone else? I think Thogial has some wiki experience. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:17, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::I've left Thogial a message about it. If he can't do it, I'm willing to learn. (Although I'll be busy for the next three weeks or so. After that, I'll be willing to learn.) -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:41, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::I'm afraid I'm not the guy. I do have wiki experience; I know my way around CSS, though I'm (almost) totally ignorant of Javascript. However, I'm not entirely sure my experience would address the needs of this site... At Wikia we run wikis via CSS and JS, but here I gather it's more like a web hosting forum site (web interface and whatnot) and I've never done that. You're looking for someone who knows how to solve problems when they occur--not someone who needs to learn how to do it first. For instance, I have no clue on how to solve the software issue we've had since you moved the site...<br />
:::::On the other hand, if we can't find a suitable replacement, then the best alternative would be something as per Supermorff's suggestion: we round up three or four members to chime in and learn who to do it, intuitively or otherwise. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 05:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Hi, JEB here. I really don't think it should be that hard to replace me on the web side of the wiki; anyone who's had wiki and admin experience (like most of you above) should be able to do it after a quick review of the options on Special Pages. There's also plenty of advice on operating Mediawiki wikis on the web. Whoever steps up to the plate, I thank him and wish him well. [[User:Jeb|Jeb]] 14:09, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:Hey, Jeb. Well if that's the case, then I'd be happy to lend a hand. But not alone. Must this be a one man's job? Because I'd feel more comfortable with some backup... Supermorff? If we can share the load, I'm game. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 15:03, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:I could try my best to learn also. So, what do you say? Supermoff, Thogial, and I sharing the load? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::The more the merrier. Since you two have been here the longest, I'll be L-3. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Woot! I get to be Vandal Savage! ... and shadows still conceal our light! -[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I get to be nigh immortal and with an army of assassins at my disposal. Supermorff gets to be bald. :p -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:53, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::No, L-3 is bald, that's you. I get the army of assassins and a name that is constantly mispronounced. More than happy to help out here too, though. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:15, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::::Oh crap, that's right. Oh well, I get the hot assistant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 03:47, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:Well, you three have my vote -- JEB, thanks for everything you've done for the GargWiki (especially since its probably stuff I'll never fully realize) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
''*Face scrambling mode: ON.*'' So, what's the situation regarding this matter? --[[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 09:08, 4 April 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Apocrypha appearances==<br />
A friend mentioned on Facebook: ''"So the GargWiki doesn't list characters' episode appearances from the third season. That's decidedly unhelpful regardless of whether or not it's canon."'' He was looking for Fox's TGC appearances. While this is not unreasonable, the Appearances section on the character pages is designed for canon only. And then what, do we log all the Marvel Comic appearances? All the Disney Adventures comic appearances? I'm not against it, but this is something that will need to be discussed, researched, because it would be a large project. I definitely don't want it incorporated into the main appearances section on each page, though. And, to be honest, I don't want to be the one to do this. The last thing I want to do is re-visit TGC. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:52, 6 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:While i think it is great that this Wiki has always been home to all things "Gargoyles" I think it is pretty clear that we are strongly biased to the canon. So for this to go down I'd suggest one or both of two things. 1. Make a seperate appearances section within the apocrypha sections of each characters page listing what apocrypha episodes/issues they appeared in and 2. Make an appearance list on each apocrypha page saying who was in the TGC episode or Marvel issue. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:58, 7 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Archmage's time loop ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
Hi, everyone. So it's that time of the year when I binge re-watch ''Gargoyles'' and I am up to the "Avalon" three-parter. As always I tried to make sense of the Archmage's time loop, but to no avail, but this time I decided to make some research. I found [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/faq20.htm this] long reply from GW and a few short ones [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12991] [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13167] that helped some. For me, Griff's time loop was always easier to understand than the Archmage's, maybe because the latter involved both of his selves, while the former involves a [[Goliath|third party]]. I was never at any convention, so I never saw GW explaining the loop with a diagram, so I made my own from what I understand of the loop and GW's explanations. Am I close? Does anyone have any comments/explanations? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 16:36, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Awesome diagram, Thogial! Yep, visually, that looks pretty darn accurate to how Greg's typically described it (and how I, at the least, always made sense out of it). That said, while I see it in the arrow's paths, the diagram could probably still use some written explanation that the Enhanced Archmage (that led the proto-Archmage through time), following his younger self (now enhanced)'s departure back to 984, goes on to attack Oberon's Palace. Maybe even include his death in 1995, if there's room. In any event, the final version has to go on [[Archmage|his]] page, as well as "[[Avalon Part Two|Avalon]]" Part Two page --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:56, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::How's that? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 06:19, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::<nowiki>**thumbs up**</nowiki> Seriously, great work Thogial :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:16, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
::::Thanks. :) I took the liberty of putting some dissertation around it. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 11:30, 19 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Canon is coming ==<br />
So, here's the question... how long should we wait before adding spoilers to the GargWiki? Obviously, we can edit the new issues' pages right away, but... do we update character entries at once, or should we give it a few days to a week? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:If memory serves right, I felt we added spoiler content to the wiki pretty quickly -- issue pages, characters, objects, etc . . . not to mention converting CIT to Canon and adding new canon-in-training when reasonable, but those edits were usually tagged as containing spoiler content in the edit summary/notes. Invisible Spoiler tags were the etiquette and expectation for Station 8 reviews and discussions. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:05, 9 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Appearances ==<br />
<br />
Okay, I've got two thoughts here. We've got another spin-off coming, "Gargoyles: Dark Ages" and how do we want to deal with this in the Appearances sections on character pages? Should we leave it as is, and add the appearance in the order the issue comes out... or should we undertake the big project of dividing the Appearances sections on character pages into different series? For example: "Appearances in Gargoyles", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Bad Guys", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Dark Ages"? Someone like Demona appears in all three, for example. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I would personally prefer we keep the style we adopted with ''[[Gargoyles: Bad Guys]]'' -- Dividing up the appearances doesn't seem consistent to the intentions of the wiki. Best case, it amounts to a lot of rearranging, and worst case it could leave the impression that the main comic (or the original series) has more weight than the rest (which I can comfortably suspect is not the opinion of anyone here). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:43, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::That makes sense, because then why not have a Goliath Chronicles appearances section? Or Marvel and Disney Adventures? But I am open to a counterargument. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:55, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::With all canon material I think we should list appearances in order of official release of the media. So if a character appears in Gargoyles Chapter 7, then Dark Ages Chapter 1, then Gargoyles Chapter 8, we will list their appearances in that order. My two cents, of course. If we want to put TGC, marvel comic book material, etc in an appearances list in the apocrypha section, thats fine, but I generally don't care about non-canon stuff. Should be its own thing though. [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 12:54, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::It has been noted elsewhere that while the editors on this wiki cover all things related to ''Gargoyles'', our preferred interest historically prioritizes canon and {{CIT|canon-in-training}}. I'd opt also for establishing a precedent for an appearances subsection under a character's Apocrypha section. [[Demona]] is probably the best example of possibilities, with multiple non-canonical appearances on screen, page, stage, and device(? I'm thinking video games here, which, for the Demona page specifically, looks like it needs some toggling anyhow). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 12:59, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::::The Demona page might be our second biggest page outside of the timeline. And maybe it does need to be broken up in places. For example, look at all the Megatron pages on TFWiki: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Megatron_(G1) . But I agree, let's leave the Appearance section as is. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 13:11, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
OH! Apologies, I should have mentioned this earlier. One change I have made in the Appearances section a month or so back, each column now has a cap of twenty-five titles. Once we hit twenty-five, we start a new column. We can increase or decrease this, but I'd like it uniform. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 08:48, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Sounds good to me. Hopefully, we eventually have to tackle the problem of too many columns! [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 09:28, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Releases ==<br />
<br />
So, at what point is something no longer a "new release" (boy, I love that we're now asking this question). Right now, I'm operating on a year, but is that too much? For example, NECA Hudson was released last September; that's nine months. Is it still new? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:12, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
: For NECA, I'm undecided, but for the comics (of which, anectodally, my local shop currently only has leftovers of "A Little Crazy" still on the shelves), I was figuring we take the first six off the New Release list once the first trade debuts. And, no idea what the traffic is here, but I haven't plugged the trade on the Coming Soon section so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing those first six issues. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 11:06, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Thinking about names like a human==<br />
In recognizing that we will be inundated with placeholder-names for the various gargoyle characters from ''Dark Ages'', and seeing some inconsistency pop up across the wiki (and occasionally on the same page), I wanted to bring up an idea to standardize our approach. <br />
<br />
While we certainly want to continue prioritizing canonical names like Coldstone and Coldfire to Othello and Desdemona, for all intents and purposes, the characters we refer to as Second, Sacrifice, and Verity will never (barring time travel) have a true name in any canon work. So I do find it a bit silly to keep throwing quotes around their placeholder-names when nothing more concrete (pun somewhat intended) is anticipated.<br />
<br />
Any edits I've made quoting a character's placeholder/behind-the-scenes name have been made when we've no real other way to distinguish them from names a character gave to themselves or were received by others in the series. Names like True and Hyppolyta certainly aren't apocryphal, but it's a flavor of non-canon that can’t ever really ''become'' canon, so the canon-in-training template doesn't fit. <br />
<br />
BUT, inspired by our ever-helpful CIT template, I whipped up and tinkered with (in previews mode), a different-colored template for characters that had no true name. In essence, the placeholder-name would be bolded in gray type. This color choice can be adjusted of course, but the idea is that whatever color chosen and settled on (if we did go this route) would not jar too much from the white text and contrast well enough from the blue backgrounds and bluer-CIT type. (I also liked the gray because a passive, stony-looking color fit well opposite to that of an actively used name.) <br />
<br />
I've also included a hover text that gets highlighted when a cursor is over the name: '''"This is not the character's true name."''' That phrasing can also be tinkered with, but it does work for situations ranging from Iago (in the credits) to Kermit (only in the script). (More on Mentor & Angel below.)<br />
<br />
At the moment, I've tinkered the template tag with the name NoTrueName, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. NoNames or something pithier could be hashed out later.<br />
<br />
To sum up, in the overall desire that we have a consensus for being consistent one way or another, our options for writing articles with characters that are lacking true names include:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Option 1''', no quotes, no nothing for placeholder names (but to the uninitiated, this can be misleading).<br />
:For the next twenty-three years Second and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 2''', consistent quotes for placeholder-names.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years “Second” and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 3''', tag the character’s placeholder name with the new template.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years <span title="This is not the character's true name." style="cursor:help; color:#999999; font-weight:bold">Second</span> and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now, I think it is best to also remember that there is a distinction to consider between <nowiki>'</nowiki>names<nowiki>'</nowiki> like Mentor and Angel that do have SOME canonical association (Coldstone to Hudson and Goliath to Demona), whereas names like Schnozz, Brooksbro, and Kermit are really only for scripting purposes. That’s why I would be ok with not quoting or tagging Mentor and Angel with the potential-new template (I’ve noticed we don’t quote Gargoyle of the Sword for Brooklyn).<br />
<br />
I know that's a lot, and some options would require more overhaul across the wiki than others, but I’d love to hear what others think. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm okay with whatever the team decides. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:11, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you brought this up. It was already feeling inconsistent and messy and was only going to get worse. My vote would be option 2. If the name is purely a placeholder for an unnamed character we use quotations. Always. Maybe even in the title for the respective page. And the quotes should be explained in the header. Mentor and Angel can use those names until the switch to Hudson and Demona, and it should be "Othello" until he receives the name Coldstone. Just my thoughts. I'm not stuck on it. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 18:15, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::That would be my preference as well. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 21:32, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, so consistent quotes for '''all''' placeholder-names. On the subject of in-universe non-names likes Mentor and Angel and Gargoyle of the Sword, I agree we use them in their proper context (before they are Hudson and Demona, and in Brooklyn's case I see that handle usually on the pages of characters in 997 that wouldn't know his name), but I want us all to be on the same page. Do we use quotes for those names too? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 21:40, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I say no quotes on Angel, Mentor, etc. since they are used in-universe. Thoughts on changing the name of pages from Sacrifice to "Sacrifice"? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 06:13, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Okie doke, no quotes for in-universe non-names. And for characters that will, in all likelihood, never have a canonical name, yes, let's change those page names. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Works for me. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 12:35, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I've done the moves for every 10th century Wyvern gargoyle without a true name save for Hyppolyta and Antiope. We have at least one unknown character (for now) naming gargoyles after historical and legendary figures in the prose story, and I'm preferring being patient in Hyppolyta's case. If anyone feels this caution is unneeded, we can move that page too with one with quotes. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I'm sure there are pages that haven't been adjusted yet that we'll spot in the meantime, but I just wanted to quickly note some quirks this new standard will bring us. For one, I really don't love seeing a apostrophe used next to a character's name that's been quoted, so I rewrote a couple sentences ("Kermit"'s page had a hard one). Also, I saw on the timeline that when Puck was impersonating "Goliath" in "Possession", we used quotes that date's entry. So that kind of nuance can get tricky. I don't know. I still prefer that we have a system that makes sense to all of us, and if those nitpicks I mention don't bother anyone else, then I'm fine with what we have. If they are some cause for concern or query, then I leave this comment for food for thought if we did want to readress and/or adjust course a bit before the next ''Dark Ages'' comic comes out.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::I agree, we definitely need a uniform system. I'm not sure what my preference is, but whatever the group decides, I'm down with it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:10, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Great job, Phoen! All looking really good. As for the "Goliath" issue, maybe we could just do something like [[Puck|Puck (As Goliath)]] or something so that it isn't the same system as the quotations. Or we just leave it as this is a special case. Like Greg, I'm open to whatever. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 07:25, 25 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
With new canon, and this renaissance of GARGOYLES taking place, it's time for us to really modernize this thing. I am no computer programmer or wiki programmer, but I know someone who is interested in overhauling the visuals of the GargWiki. But what we also need to do is update our episode summaries. A lot of great people have done a lot of hard work here, but we're lacking in the episode and comic book synopsis department. Take a look at the [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Young_Justice_Wiki Young Justice Wiki], look at their episode and comic book synopsis's... it's a real reference site. So are we, but the bar has been raised and I think we need to meet it. Something the fandom can use, something the people bringing us new official stories can use. A brief summary of main plot and subplot is not a clear and clean exposition of the plot. Right now story points are often glossed over or left unmentioned or taken out of context. So let's make this something we can truly build, we don't need to get it done over night... but something we can slowly chip away at. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:38, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Hello. Here at GregX’s request. It’s going to take me some time to get back up to speed on wiki editing, but I’m willing to help. Do we want to make a list of high priority episodes/issues that we should start with? Stuff that might be particularly relevant for what’s happening in the comics right not? Or maybe just a list of everything that needs to be done that can be consulted and checked off as we go? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] ([[User talk:Demonskrye|talk]]) 08:53, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Great to see you back! Well, I just took care of the synopsis for [[The Edge]]. I don't think we need to overthink things at this point. Let's start small, make sure we have the format down and then go from there. We can make a check list, volunteer for specific episodes. And of course keep each other in the loop if life happens and we can't tackle it and someone else might like to. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:[[Thrill of the Hunt|"Thrill of the Hunt"]], [[Temptation|"Temptation"]], and [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] all look like viable examples to model for other episode pages. At the least, providing a more detailed three-act breakdown will help compensate for the fact that ''Gargoyles'' doesn't usually have timestamps that the YJ Wiki can depend on as reference. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I'm looking at you, Stone of Destiny arc, lol. You have timestamps up to the brim! d: --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:48, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Demonskrye did a fantastic job with those. I intend to get started soon. Maybe I'll start with "The Edge". --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::If no one minds, I can take a crack with "Upgrade" -- I can at least coordinate with the upcoming ''Voices From the Eyrie'' (not to worry, I wouldn't make this a monthly endeavor) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::Please do. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 04:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:All right, I just added the "skeleton" (three acts and such) to each canonical episode entry. My way of making our statement of intent, and I plan to get started very soon. And, on top of that, Demonskrye's synopsis for "Temptation" is the perfect model. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 05:21, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Oooh, I just thought of something; perhaps, when an episode has one at the end, we can include an additional section after Act Three dubbed the 'Xanatos Tag'. We've long had it on the to-do list here on the Community Portal, and pointing out how that played out in the various episodes (especially when another character subverts the expectation) might be the natural fit that hasn't been found elsewhere on the GargWiki -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 06:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's the master list. Feel free to update with ones you plan to do and ones that were done. Also, when you claim an episode page to work on, please date it and sign it with '''<nowiki>{{CIT|Claimed by ~~~~}}</nowiki>''' <br />
<br />
{| style="width:100%"<br />
|<br />
'''Season 1 episodes''' – ('''13/13 Complete''') <br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
<br />
'''Season 2 episodes''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">27/52 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|10/52 Claimed}} | '''15/52 Complete''')<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (PST)}}<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Shadows of the Past|"Shadows of the Past"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (PST)}}<br />
# [[Heritage|"Heritage"]]<br />
# [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]]<br />
# [[Monsters|"Monsters"]]<br />
# [[Golem (episode)|"Golem"]]<br />
# [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[M.I.A.|"M.I.A."]] - {{CIT|Chip plans to do it.}}<br />
# [[Grief|"Grief"]]<br />
# [[The Hound of Ulster|"The Hound of Ulster"]]<br />
# [[Walkabout|"Walkabout"]]<br />
# [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]]<br />
# [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]]<br />
# [[The New Olympians|"The New Olympians"]]<br />
# [[The Green|"The Green"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Sentinel (episode)|"Sentinel"]]<br />
# [[Bushido (episode)|"Bushido"]]<br />
# [[Cloud Fathers (episode)|"Cloud Fathers"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 23:34, 2 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Ill Met By Moonlight|"Ill Met By Moonlight"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:38, 28 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]<br />
# [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Vendettas|"Vendettas"]]<br />
# [[Turf|"Turf"]]<br />
# [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]]<br />
# [[Possession|"Possession"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part One|"Hunter's Moon" Part One]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Two|"Hunter's Moon" Part Two]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
|<br />
'''Gargoyles: Clan-Building''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|06/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
# [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
# [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]]<br />
# [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
# [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
# [[Reunion|"Reunion"]] <br />
# [[The Rock|"The Rock"]] - Completed by merlyn<br />
# [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] - Completed by merlyn<br />
# [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] - Completed by merlyn<br />
# [[The Gate|"The Gate"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (PST)}}<br />
# [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (PST)}}<br />
# [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (PST)}}<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Bad Guys''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">04/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[Strangers|"Strangers"]]<br />
# [[The Lost|"The Lost"]]<br />
# [[Estranged|"Estranged"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Louse|"Louse"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Strangled|"Strangled"]]<br />
# [[Losers|"Losers"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">10/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
# [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
# [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
# [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
# [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]]<br />
# [[Underwater|"Underwater"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Mayday|"Mayday"]]<br />
# [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
# [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Eleven]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Dark Ages''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
# [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
# [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
# [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Five]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Six]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Specials''' - ('''<span style="color:#d12525">01/01 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/01 Claimed}} | '''00/01 Completed''')<br />
# [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Episode Order==<br />
Recently, I added [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] to character appearances, and I placed it prior to [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]. Now, I know we've been placing things in release order, and that's a rule that I am in favor of continuing. But we've been making exceptions for this all along, too. For example: [[The Price|"The Price"]] aired earlier in sequence and [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]] aired late. Greg Weisman provided his preferred order... that order appeared on the DVD's. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the eventual trade paperback collections that the Halloween Special will be placed after the "Here In Manhattan" arc. Although, Disney+ has those two previous episodes in the airing order. And while I am still all in favor of issue releases for spin-offs like Bad Guys and Dark Ages being placed in release order (because that's the intended release order)... I do think we need a rule, with exceptions taking into account. But this isn't a hill I want to die on, so I'll abide by the consensus. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:21, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:The impetus for us shifting "The Price" and "The Kingdom" around was because of Greg Weisman's input. Should he mention something in a tweet or on a future ''Voices on the Eyrie'', I'm ok with the move. Otherwise, I think we can wait until the trades come out to see what the intended order is. I'm supportive with moving the Halloween Special up in the episode order and had been thinking similar thoughts since "Trick-Or-Treat" came out, but I didn't see a rush then and I don't see it now until we have something at least at the CIT level. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 07:48, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
::I agree with Phoen. But, like Greg B, I'm not going to make a fuss about it either way. --[[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 08:59, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::So, for practicality's sake for these next few issues, do we proceed with release order when it comes to new appearances being added to character pages after "Trick-Or-Treat" (at least, until we hear something definitive from Greg Weisman about the intended order)? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2023 (PDT)</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Rock_and_Roll&diff=39590Rock and Roll2023-11-28T01:01:07Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''The correct title of this article is Rock & Roll. The ampersand has been replaced because of technical restrictions.<br />
<br />
[[Image:GargoylesComic8.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #8 by Greg Guler & Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
'''"Rock & Roll"''' is the eighth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Eight of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc. It was released on March 26, 2008. The issue was reprinted in ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil & Cover Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: [[Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
From the Holy Land to the British Isles... everyone wants a piece of the Rock. [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], [[Macbeth]], [[Coldsteel]], [[Thailog]], [[Merlin]], [[Cu Chullain]] and the [[gargoyle]]s strive to find it, possess it and learn its darkest secrets. All this and [[Fox]]'s new shoes in ''CLAN-BUILDING, Chapter 8: Rock & Roll.''<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
<br />
The story continues from the last issue, [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]. In [[London]], [[Macbeth]] and [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] realize that they share the same mission of protecting the [[Stone of Destiny]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Lexington]] meet up with [[Griff]], [[Staghart]], and [[Constance]] of the [[London Clan]], who bring the two [[Manhattan Clan]] members to their clan's home at [[Knight's Spur]], while Arthur and Macbeth stand vigil through the day. They all go out later that night to stand watch at the Abbey, and are attacked by [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], [[Coldsteel]], and a [[Steel Clan]] and [[Iron Clan]] robot. Macbeth and Arthur watch the scene from the ground when Arthur mysteriously disappears. The two gargoyle robots are disposed of, but Coyote takes out Lexington, who is saved by Staghart, and Coldsteel nearly dismembers Hudson when [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] show up.<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]] is boarding his flight for [[Japan]].<br />
<br />
A man calls for a bomb unit on a bridge.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] continues telling [[Thailog]] about the Stone of Destiny, while the two play chess. Shari's stories contradict each other as she begins the tale with [[Moses]] taking the stone along with him during the Exodus, and bringing forth water from it for his thirsty followers. The stone is passed down through the centuries until [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] of [[Ireland]] accepted it as dowry when he married Princess [[Tamar Tea Tephi]], and brought it to [[Tara]]. The stone was later cut in half by [[Cu Chullain]], angry that it didn't confirm his friend [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] as King. [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] of Ireland brought a stone half to [[Scotland]], where [[Merlin]] and King [[Pelles]] contact him at [[Castle Carbonek]], borrowing the stone so that Arthur could pull [[Excalibur]] from it. [[Saint Columba]] died upon the stone on [[Iona]], and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] was crowned King upon the stone at [[Scone]], as were all the Kings of Scotland thereafter.<br />
<br />
Arthur and Macbeth trade stories about their pasts over [[Nightstone's Coffee]]. They make a toast to immortals.<br />
<br />
Arthur explains that he and Griff have searched fruitlessly for Merlin, so they returned to London where Arthur has been researching his own exploits.<br />
<br />
Lexington talks to Staghart and Constance about the London Clan, which is revealed to have 196 members, 25 eggs, but no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]]. Mated pairs in the clan are only allowed two [[egg]]s a lifetime to keep the population under control.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:40 AM, GMT. "Welcome to Knight's Spur," says Griff, gliding over an English stately home in the middle of a forest, with gargoyle silhouettes surrounding it.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:05 AM, GMT. Hudson and Coldsteel do battle.<br />
<br />
November 4, 5:35 AM, EST. Vinnie eagerly boards Fight 994 for Japan.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. Atop Coldstream Bridge, someone calls for the Bomb Unit - "now!"<br />
<br />
November 8, 5:34 AM, EST. As they play chess, Shari tells Thailog how, during their wandering in the desert, Moses supplied the Hebrews with water by striking Jacob's Pillow. Thailog points out the discrepancy with her earlier story, in which Moses gave the Stone to Gathelus and Scota before the Exodus took place. Shari is unrattled, and simply goes on to tell another tale from the Stone of Destiny's history - how the prophet Jeremiah and Princess Tamar Tea Tephi of Judah brought the Stone to Ireland, where Tamar married King Eochaid. Jeremiah gave the king the Stone as Tamar's dowry; Eochaid set it up at Tara and named it the Lia Fail.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:51 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth now recognize each other. Macbeth explains that he came to London to protect the Stone of Destiny.<br />
<br />
September 29, 1040. Macbeth is crowned King of Scotland upon the Stone of Destiny....<br />
<br />
September 29, 500. ...just as the young Arthur Pendragon was crowned upon the Stone by King Pelles, over five hundred years earlier.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:53 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth realize that they share the same cause - then also realize, to their alarm, that their gargoyle allies will be fighting each other.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11: 52 PM, GMT. Fortunately, Griff has recognized Hudson and Lexington, and peace has prevailed.<br />
<br />
November 12, 10:00 PM, GMT. Xanatos pulls out a device from his jacket and presses its button.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:28 AM, GMT. Macbeth tells Lexington and Hudson to go with Griff, while he and King Arthur keep watch in the daytime.<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:48 AM, GMT. At a coffee shop in London, Arthur and Macbeth swap tales about their pasts. "So here's to the immortals," says Macbeth. "There aren't many like us."<br />
<br />
November 9, 5:36 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how the Lia Fail refused to acknowledge Lugaid Red-Stripe, a claimant to the throne, as King of Ireland. Lugaid's friend Cu Chullain was so furious that he struck the Stone of Destiny in half with his great spear, the Gae Bolga.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:33 AM, GMT. Griff explains to Hudson and Lexington that they're going, not to the Into the Mystic shop in Soho, but to Knight's Spur. He introduces them to the other two London gargoyles, Constance and Staghart. Staghart states that his friends call him Amp. "Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" says Constance.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:06 AM, GMT. Lexington shouts to Staghart, "Amp! Look out!", and shoves him out of the way of Coyote's attack. The gargoyles are fighting a group comprised of Coldsteel, Coyote, a Steel Clan robot and and Iron Clan robot. Griff asks why the last two resemble Goliath; "Long story," replies Lexington.<br />
<br />
On the ground below, Macbeth and King Arthur are watching the aerial battle. Macbeth recognizes the robots as Xanatos's work, and concludes that Xanatos must be after the Stone - but that the robot attack seems to be a diversion. He then realizes that Arthur is gone.<br />
<br />
November 10, 5:37 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how Prince Fergus, when he led his people to the southwest of Scotland to found the kingdom of Dalriada, took half the Stone of Destiny with him. On the way to Scotland, he came to the castle of Carbonek (or, more accurately, it came to him), where Merlin and King Pelles persuaded him to lend them the Stone. They took it to London, where the young Arthur drew the sword Excalibur from it and thus became King of Britain.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. At Knight's Spur, Hudson meets with King Arthur and Macbeth in the library. Hudson asks Arthur about his quest for Merlin; Arthur explains that he and Griff had searched for the famous wizard in "all the obvious places", but without success. So Arthur is researching both Merlin and himself; among the books he's consulted is Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur. Hudson remarks "So many books... are any of them true?" "All things are true," Arthur replies, "few things are accurate." <!--A good point, given that neither Malory nor his predecessors made any mention of King Pelles' involvement with the Sword in the Stone.--> Macbeth agrees.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. Meanwhile, as Lexington, Griff, Constance and Staghart watch over Westminster Abbey, Lex asks how many gargoyles are in the London clan. Griff replies that there are a hundred and ninety-six, with Old Pog being the eldest....<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:20 AM, GMT. The London gargoyles, as well as Hudson and Lexington, stand atop the roof of Knight's Spur in stone sleep.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:34 PM, GMT. ...and Lunette and her rookery siblings being the youngest. Lexington asks if the clan has eggs; Griff replies that they have twenty-five. "So few," comments Lexington sadly. Constance explains that they keep the eggs' numbers deliberately low to avoid outgrowing their home; they only have two eggs per female, forcing each female gargoyle into confinement when the time comes to lay the third egg. Lexington is unsettled by that revelation.<br />
<br />
He then asks Constance and Staghart if they are mates; they amusedly reply that they're only "mates" in the British English sense (i.e., friends), not in the biological sense. Lexington changes the subject to gargoyle beasts; Griff sadly informs him they have none.<br />
<br />
November 11, 5: 38 AM, EST. As they play chess again, Shari tells Thailog about St. Columba, who tamed the Loch Ness Monster, and later passed on at Iona, his head resting upon the Stone of Destiny (which Merlin and King Pelles had brought to Iona after Arthur was crowned King).<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:00 AM, GMT. Hudson rejoins the other gargoyles in their vigil at Westminster, only for them to be attacked by Coyote, Coldsteel, and the two Clan robots. The other gargoyles take to the skies to fight the robots, while Hudson battles Coldsteel upon the Palace of Westminster's rooftop.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:08 AM, GMT. Coyote offers to leave the gargoyles alone if they vacate the area. "Dream on, you electric sheep!" cries Lexington, stating that they won't leave until they find out what Xanatos and Fox are up to.<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:41 PM, GMT. Fox purchases a pair of shoes at a shoeshop in London.<br />
<br />
November 12, 5:39 AM, EST. Still playing chess with Thailog (and checking him, to his annoyance), Shari tells how Kenneth mac Alpin, first King of Scotland and a descendant of Prince Fergus, was crowned upon the Stone of Destiny at Scone - as would all the other Kings of Scotland (including Macbeth) for the next four centuries.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:09 AM, GMT. Coyote responds to Lexington's defiance by zapping him. Staghart catches him in mid-air. Griff uses his "lightning gun" to shoot an arm off the Iron Clan robot. Constance is delighted - but has her own way of literally disarming a hostile robot, by ripping the arms off the Steel Clan robot. <!--Beowulf versus Grendel style, though she outdid the Geatish warrior in tearing both arms off.--><br />
<br />
Coldsteel mockingly suggests treating Hudson to the same fate - only here he'd be ripping an arm off a flesh-and-blood being. He wraps his tentacles around the old gargoyle's sword-arm, but before he can pull the arm off, a blast of fire from above severs the tentacles. Coldstone and Coldfire hover over their heads, as Hudson and Coldsteel stare up at them; the intervention that saved Hudson was their doing. Staghart, still holding Lexington, asks "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?"<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
By Todd Jensen<br />
<br />
"Rock & Roll" continues the saga of the [[Stone of Destiny]], begun in "The Rock". We learn more about the Stone of Destiny's history (all the way down to 843 at least), and see the present-day struggle over it continue, with a few unexpected turns – and all still in the same non-linear style of "The Rock".<br />
<br />
"The Rock" ended with [[Macbeth]], [[Hudson]], and [[Lexington]] seemingly threatened by [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] and a few [[London]] gargoyles. Fortunately, Arthur quickly learns that Macbeth shares his concern over the Stone of Destiny's safety, and since [[Griff]] is one of the London gargoyles on the scene, Hudson and Lexington are soon making friends with the new gargoyles. These are [[Constance]] (nicknamed "[[Constance|Coco]]") and [[Staghart]] (nicknamed "[[Staghart|Amp]]" – though only Lexington calls him that). Both are lively young gargoyles; Coco, in particular, is a fine warrior, able to disarm (literally) a [[Steel Clan]] robot in aerial combat (outdoing Beowulf in his battle against Grendel by pulling both arms off). Staghart and Lexington have quickly developed into close friends.<br />
<br />
We learn more about the [[London Clan]] as well, and that the [[Into the Mystic]] shop is not their only property. The bulk of them live in the country estate of [[Knight's Spur]]. And they are a numerous clan – so numerous that they have to set up breeding strictures to prevent overpopulation. They also have no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]] (the way that Griff reveals this almost suggests there is a story there).<br />
<br />
Arthur, in the meantime, is clearly developing from an enemy to Macbeth (as in [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] and [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]) into a friend and ally. The two of them share their thoughts over coffee on being immortal medieval kings in the modern world, and stand vigil over the Stone of Destiny together – until Arthur mysteriously disappears. We also learn that Arthur, unable to find [[Merlin]], has taken to studying the legends about himself and his famous advisor, in order to gain guidance.<br />
<br />
Speaking of legends, [[Shari]] is still narrating the backstory of the Stone of Destiny to [[Thailog]] – who points out some of the inconsistencies in her account. (Shari has provided a second version of the Stone's history in biblical times; now she claims that [[Moses]] took it with him during the [[Exodus]] rather than entrusting it to [[Gathelus]] and [[Scota]], that it was the stone he struck to provide the Israelites with water, and that it was brought to [[Ireland]] by the prophet [[Jeremiah]] some centuries later.) Shari, however, is not at all fazed by Thailog's response, and he has to back down in the end. Shari also tells how [[Cu Chullain]] split the Stone in half during a rage, how [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] took it with him to Ireland, and how the Stone became part of the young Arthur's Sword in the Stone feat. (We even see Merlin clearly for the first time in the comic – though in flashback form – and that he's wearing a cowboy hat. Merlin is also portrayed as partners with [[Pelles|King Pelles]] of [[Castle Carbonek]], entering the [[Gargoyles Universe]] for the first time.) Shari also reveals the Stone's links to [[Saint Columba]] (already connected to the Gargoyles Universe through his taming the [[Loch Ness Monster]]) and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]], the founder of [[Scotland]].<br />
<br />
Back in London, the gargoyles find themselves attacked by [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]]'s forces: not only [[Coldsteel]] and [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], but also two Steel Clan robots – or rather, a Steel Clan robot and an [[Iron Clan]] robot (apparently left over from [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]]). (Evidently Xanatos is not worried about the gargoyles discovering that he's behind the threat to the Stone of Destiny.) While Griff and Coco take out the Steel Clan robots, Lexington is injured by Coyote, and Hudson almost maimed by Coldsteel – but fortunately, Coldsteel's designs on the oldest member of the clan are foiled by the arrival of [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] on the final page....<br />
<br />
We still have many questions yet to answer. Why has Arthur disappeared? Why are the [[Illuminati]] and Xanatos interested in the Stone of Destiny (assuming that it's their real goal)? What is the significance of Xanatos pushing a red button on November 12? And what does [[Fox]] buying shoes have to do with all this? [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], the next issue, should (we hope) provide solutions for all (or almost all) of these mysteries.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Jeremiah]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Tamar Tea Tephi]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Pelles]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Merlin]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Old Pog]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lunette]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Saint Columba]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] (No LInes)<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Knight's Spur]]<br />
* [[Victoria Tower]]<br />
* [[Tara]]<br />
* [[Dalriada]]<br />
* [[Tintagel]]<br />
* [[Castle Carbonek]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Nightstone's Coffee]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Brave words for a metal ghost!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Been sleep-walking for nine hundred thirty-nine years." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "Guess I got the better bargain." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "So here's to the immortals-there aren't many like us..." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "<Hmph> watch who you're callin' a yank, lass..." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "My friends call me Amp!"<br />
:"Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" - Staghart and Constance<br />
<br />
* "All things are true...few things are accurate." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "Dream on, you electric sheep!" - Lexington<br />
<br />
* "Would you prefer I lost on purpose?"<br />
:"I'd fire you if you did." - Shari and Thailog<br />
<br />
* "Like I need the gun." - Constance<br />
<br />
* "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?" - Staghart<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]]'s flight to Japan is No. 994; [[Timeline#994|994]] is the year of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
Most of Shari's account of the Stone of Destiny's history is based on actual legends about it (including its links to Jeremiah and [[Tamar Tea Tephi|Tea]], Cu Chullain striking it in half, Fergus bringing it to [[Dalriada]], Columba dying beside it, and Kenneth mac Alpin and his successors being crowned upon it). Its identification as the Stone from the Sword in the Stone is entirely new (though it goes back all the way to "Pendragon"); we finally have the details for how that came about.<br />
<br />
The apparent inconsistency in Shari's story of how the Stone of Destiny came to Ireland (one version having Moses give it to Gathelus and Scota, the other having Moses keep it during the Exodus and Jeremiah and Tamar bring it to Ireland), which Thailog calls her on, foreshadows the revelation of the Stone's true nature in "Rock of Ages".<br />
<br />
The date of Arthur's mortal wound and conveyance to Avalon, 542, comes from Geoffrey of Monmouth's ''History of the Kings of Britain''.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur's coffee cups are labeled "[[Nightstone's Coffee|Nightstone's]]"; apparently either [[Demona]] or Thailog has decided to go into the coffee business. Their labels are written in the ''Gargoyles'' font.<br />
<br />
Constance and Staghart's nicknames are references to the original comedy development of ''Gargoyles''. Coco was at first the name for a heavy-set female gargoyle, the forebearer of [[Broadway]]; Amp was the name of [[Brooklyn]]'s comedy counterpart (though he physically resembled Lexington more than Brooklyn). Later on, Hudson completes the references to the comedy development's trio when he addresses the other gargoyles as "lads and lassie"; Lassie was the name of the comedy precursor of Lexington.<br />
<br />
One of the books that Arthur is consulting is Sir [[Thomas Malory]]'s ''[[Le Morte d'Arthur]]'', the famous 15th century English prose romance that has become the leading primary source for the Arthurian legend in modern times.<br />
<br />
Arthur repeats [[Seline]]'s famous line from [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] (which [[Greg Weisman]] has quoted several times at [[Ask Greg]]), "All things are true", but adds to it "Few things are accurate". In 2010, he commented that the amended line is one of his personal favorite lines he's ever written. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11897]<br />
<br />
[[Lunette]], one of the youngest members of the London Clan, is named after the Lunette of Chretien de Troyes' Arthurian verse romance ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvain%2C_the_Knight_of_the_Lion Yvain, the Knight of the Lion]''. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10425]<br />
<br />
Lexington's cry to Coyote, "Dream on, you electric sheep!" is an allusion to Philip K. Dick's ''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?''<br />
<br />
Thailog and Shari repeat (with some minor changes) Xanatos and [[Owen Burnett|Owen]]'s exchange at the start of [[The Edge|"The Edge"]], when Shari asks Thailog if he would prefer she deliberately lost to him at chess.<br />
<br />
When asked if they are mated to each other, Constance and Staghart deny it vigorously, but with a lighthearted tone of being very close friends.<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*On Sale at [http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Gargoyles-8___287340 TFAW]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=840 Chronological adaptation Chapter VIII]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Rock|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Seven: "The Rock"]]''' <br />
| '''[[Rock of Ages|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Nine: "Rock of Ages" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Rock_and_Roll&diff=39589Rock and Roll2023-11-28T01:00:44Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''The correct title of this article is Rock & Roll. The ampersand has been replaced because of technical restrictions.<br />
<br />
[[Image:GargoylesComic8.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #8 by Greg Guler & Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
'''"Rock & Roll"''' is the eighth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Eight of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc. It was released on March 26, 2008. The issue was reprinted in ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil & Cover Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: [[Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
From the Holy Land to the British Isles... everyone wants a piece of the Rock. [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], [[Macbeth]], [[Coldsteel]], [[Thailog]], [[Merlin]], [[Cu Chullain]] and the [[gargoyle]]s strive to find it, possess it and learn its darkest secrets. All this and [[Fox]]'s new shoes in ''CLAN-BUILDING, Chapter 8: Rock & Roll.''<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
<br />
The story continues from the last issue, [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]. In [[London]], [[Macbeth]] and [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] realize that they share the same mission of protecting the [[Stone of Destiny]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Lexington]] meet up with [[Griff]], [[Staghart]], and [[Constance]] of the [[London Clan]], who bring the two [[Manhattan Clan]] members to their clan's home at [[Knight's Spur]], while Arthur and Macbeth stand vigil through the day. They all go out later that night to stand watch at the Abbey, and are attacked by [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], [[Coldsteel]], and a [[Steel Clan]] and [[Iron Clan]] robot. Macbeth and Arthur watch the scene from the ground when Arthur mysteriously disappears. The two gargoyle robots are disposed of, but Coyote takes out Lexington, who is saved by Staghart, and Coldsteel nearly dismembers Hudson when [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] show up.<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]] is boarding his flight for [[Japan]].<br />
<br />
A man calls for a bomb unit on a bridge.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] continues telling [[Thailog]] about the Stone of Destiny, while the two play chess. Shari's stories contradict each other as she begins the tale with [[Moses]] taking the stone along with him during the Exodus, and bringing forth water from it for his thirsty followers. The stone is passed down through the centuries until [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] of [[Ireland]] accepted it as dowry when he married Princess [[Tamar Tea Tephi]], and brought it to [[Tara]]. The stone was later cut in half by [[Cu Chullain]], angry that it didn't confirm his friend [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] as King. [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] of Ireland brought a stone half to [[Scotland]], where [[Merlin]] and King [[Pelles]] contact him at [[Castle Carbonek]], borrowing the stone so that Arthur could pull [[Excalibur]] from it. [[Saint Columba]] died upon the stone on [[Iona]], and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] was crowned King upon the stone at [[Scone]], as were all the Kings of Scotland thereafter.<br />
<br />
Arthur and Macbeth trade stories about their pasts over [[Nightstone's Coffee]]. They make a toast to immortals.<br />
<br />
Arthur explains that he and Griff have searched fruitlessly for Merlin, so they returned to London where Arthur has been researching his own exploits.<br />
<br />
Lexington talks to Staghart and Constance about the London Clan, which is revealed to have 196 members, 25 eggs, but no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]]. Mated pairs in the clan are only allowed two [[egg]]s a lifetime to keep the population under control.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:40 AM, GMT. "Welcome to Knight's Spur," says Griff, gliding over an English stately home in the middle of a forest, with gargoyle silhouettes surrounding it.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:05 AM, GMT. Hudson and Coldsteel do battle.<br />
<br />
November 4, 5:35 AM, EST. Vinnie eagerly boards Fight 994 for Japan.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. Atop Coldstream Bridge, someone calls for the Bomb Unit - "now!"<br />
<br />
November 8, 5:34 AM, EST. As they play chess, Shari tells Thailog how, during their wandering in the desert, Moses supplied the Hebrews with water by striking Jacob's Pillow. Thailog points out the discrepancy with her earlier story, in which Moses gave the Stone to Gathelus and Scota before the Exodus took place. Shari is unrattled, and simply goes on to tell another tale from the Stone of Destiny's history - how the prophet Jeremiah and Princess Tamar Tea Tephi of Judah brought the Stone to Ireland, where Tamar married King Eochaid. Jeremiah gave the king the Stone as Tamar's dowry; Eochaid set it up at Tara and named it the Lia Fail.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:51 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth now recognize each other. Macbeth explains that he came to London to protect the Stone of Destiny.<br />
<br />
September 29, 1040. Macbeth is crowned King of Scotland upon the Stone of Destiny....<br />
<br />
September 29, 500. ...just as the young Arthur Pendragon was crowned upon the Stone by King Pelles, over five hundred years earlier.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:53 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth realize that they share the same cause - then also realize, to their alarm, that their gargoyle allies will be fighting each other.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11: 52 PM, GMT. Fortunately, Griff has recognized Hudson and Lexington, and peace has prevailed.<br />
<br />
November 12, 10:00 PM, GMT. Xanatos pulls out a device from his jacket and presses its button.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:28 AM, GMT. Macbeth tells Lexington and Hudson to go with Griff, while he and King Arthur keep watch in the daytime.<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:48 AM, GMT. At a coffee shop in London, Arthur and Macbeth swap tales about their pasts. "So here's to the immortals," says Macbeth. "There aren't many like us."<br />
<br />
November 9, 5:36 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how the Lia Fail refused to acknowledge Lugaid Red-Stripe, a claimant to the throne, as King of Ireland. Lugaid's friend Cu Chullain was so furious that he struck the Stone of Destiny in half with his great spear, the Gae Bolga.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:33 AM, GMT. Griff explains to Hudson and Lexington that they're going, not to the Into the Mystic shop in Soho, but to Knight's Spur. He introduces them to the other two London gargoyles, Constance and Staghart. Staghart states that his friends call him Amp. "Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" says Constance.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:06 AM, GMT. Lexington shouts to Staghart, "Amp! Look out!", and shoves him out of the way of Coyote's attack. The gargoyles are fighting a group comprised of Coldsteel, Coyote, a Steel Clan robot and and Iron Clan robot. Griff asks why the last two resemble Goliath; "Long story," replies Lexington.<br />
<br />
On the ground below, Macbeth and King Arthur are watching the aerial battle. Macbeth recognizes the robots as Xanatos's work, and concludes that Xanatos must be after the Stone - but that the robot attack seems to be a diversion. He then realizes that Arthur is gone.<br />
<br />
November 10, 5:37 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how Prince Fergus, when he led his people to the southwest of Scotland to found the kingdom of Dalriada, took half the Stone of Destiny with him. On the way to Scotland, he came to the castle of Carbonek (or, more accurately, it came to him), where Merlin and King Pelles persuaded him to lend them the Stone. They took it to London, where the young Arthur drew the sword Excalibur from it and thus became King of Britain.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. At Knight's Spur, Hudson meets with King Arthur and Macbeth in the library. Hudson asks Arthur about his quest for Merlin; Arthur explains that he and Griff had searched for the famous wizard in "all the obvious places", but without success. So Arthur is researching both Merlin and himself; among the books he's consulted is Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur. Hudson remarks "So many books... are any of them true?" "All things are true," Arthur replies, "few things are accurate." <!--A good point, given that neither Malory nor his predecessors made any mention of King Pelles' involvement with the Sword in the Stone.--> Macbeth agrees.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. Meanwhile, as Lexington, Griff, Constance and Staghart watch over Westminster Abbey, Lex asks how many gargoyles are in the London clan. Griff replies that there are a hundred and ninety-six, with Old Pog being the eldest....<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:20 AM, GMT. The London gargoyles, as well as Hudson and Lexington, stand atop the roof of Knight's Spur in stone sleep.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:34 PM, GMT. ...and Lunette and her rookery siblings being the youngest. Lexington asks if the clan has eggs; Griff replies that they have twenty-five. "So few," comments Lexington sadly. Constance explains that they keep the eggs' numbers deliberately low to avoid outgrowing their home; they only have two eggs per female, forcing each female gargoyle into confinement when the time comes to lay the third egg. Lexington is unsettled by that revelation.<br />
<br />
He then asks Constance and Staghart if they are mates; they amusedly reply that they're only "mates" in the British English sense (i.e., friends), not in the biological sense. Lexington changes the subject to gargoyle beasts; Griff sadly informs him they have none.<br />
<br />
November 11, 5: 38 AM, EST. As they play chess again, Shari tells Thailog about St. Columba, who tamed the Loch Ness Monster, and later passed on at Iona, his head resting upon the Stone of Destiny (which Merlin and King Pelles had brought to Iona after Arthur was crowned King).<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:00 AM, GMT. Hudson rejoins the other gargoyles in their vigil at Westminster, only for them to be attacked by Coyote, Coldsteel, and the two Clan robots. The other gargoyles take to the skies to fight the robots, while Hudson battles Coldsteel upon the Palace of Westminster's rooftop.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:08 AM, GMT. Coyote offers to leave the gargoyles alone if they vacate the area. "Dream on, you electric sheep!" cries Lexington, stating that they won't leave until they find out what Xanatos and Fox are up to.<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:41 PM, GMT. Fox purchases a pair of shoes at a shoeshop in London.<br />
<br />
November 12, 5:39 AM, EST. Still playing chess with Thailog (and checking him, to his annoyance), Shari tells how Kenneth mac Alpin, first King of Scotland and a descendant of Prince Fergus, was crowned upon the Stone of Destiny at Scone - as would all the other Kings of Scotland (including Macbeth) for the next four centuries.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:09 AM, GMT. Coyote responds to Lexington's defiance by zapping him. Staghart catches him in mid-air. Griff uses his "lightning gun" to shoot an arm off the Iron Clan robot. Constance is delighted - but has her own way of literally disarming a hostile robot, by ripping the arms off the Steel Clan robot. <!--Beowulf versus Grendel style, though she outdid the Geatish warrior in tearing both arms off.--><br />
<br />
Coldsteel mockingly suggests treating Hudson to the same fate - only here he'd be ripping an arm off a flesh-and-blood being. He raps his tentacles around the old gargoyle's sword-arm, but before he can pull the arm off, a blast of fire from above severs the tentacles. Coldstone and Coldfire hover over their heads, as Hudson and Coldsteel stare up at them; the intervention that saved Hudson was their doing. Staghart, still holding Lexington, asks "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?"<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
By Todd Jensen<br />
<br />
"Rock & Roll" continues the saga of the [[Stone of Destiny]], begun in "The Rock". We learn more about the Stone of Destiny's history (all the way down to 843 at least), and see the present-day struggle over it continue, with a few unexpected turns – and all still in the same non-linear style of "The Rock".<br />
<br />
"The Rock" ended with [[Macbeth]], [[Hudson]], and [[Lexington]] seemingly threatened by [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] and a few [[London]] gargoyles. Fortunately, Arthur quickly learns that Macbeth shares his concern over the Stone of Destiny's safety, and since [[Griff]] is one of the London gargoyles on the scene, Hudson and Lexington are soon making friends with the new gargoyles. These are [[Constance]] (nicknamed "[[Constance|Coco]]") and [[Staghart]] (nicknamed "[[Staghart|Amp]]" – though only Lexington calls him that). Both are lively young gargoyles; Coco, in particular, is a fine warrior, able to disarm (literally) a [[Steel Clan]] robot in aerial combat (outdoing Beowulf in his battle against Grendel by pulling both arms off). Staghart and Lexington have quickly developed into close friends.<br />
<br />
We learn more about the [[London Clan]] as well, and that the [[Into the Mystic]] shop is not their only property. The bulk of them live in the country estate of [[Knight's Spur]]. And they are a numerous clan – so numerous that they have to set up breeding strictures to prevent overpopulation. They also have no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]] (the way that Griff reveals this almost suggests there is a story there).<br />
<br />
Arthur, in the meantime, is clearly developing from an enemy to Macbeth (as in [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] and [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]) into a friend and ally. The two of them share their thoughts over coffee on being immortal medieval kings in the modern world, and stand vigil over the Stone of Destiny together – until Arthur mysteriously disappears. We also learn that Arthur, unable to find [[Merlin]], has taken to studying the legends about himself and his famous advisor, in order to gain guidance.<br />
<br />
Speaking of legends, [[Shari]] is still narrating the backstory of the Stone of Destiny to [[Thailog]] – who points out some of the inconsistencies in her account. (Shari has provided a second version of the Stone's history in biblical times; now she claims that [[Moses]] took it with him during the [[Exodus]] rather than entrusting it to [[Gathelus]] and [[Scota]], that it was the stone he struck to provide the Israelites with water, and that it was brought to [[Ireland]] by the prophet [[Jeremiah]] some centuries later.) Shari, however, is not at all fazed by Thailog's response, and he has to back down in the end. Shari also tells how [[Cu Chullain]] split the Stone in half during a rage, how [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] took it with him to Ireland, and how the Stone became part of the young Arthur's Sword in the Stone feat. (We even see Merlin clearly for the first time in the comic – though in flashback form – and that he's wearing a cowboy hat. Merlin is also portrayed as partners with [[Pelles|King Pelles]] of [[Castle Carbonek]], entering the [[Gargoyles Universe]] for the first time.) Shari also reveals the Stone's links to [[Saint Columba]] (already connected to the Gargoyles Universe through his taming the [[Loch Ness Monster]]) and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]], the founder of [[Scotland]].<br />
<br />
Back in London, the gargoyles find themselves attacked by [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]]'s forces: not only [[Coldsteel]] and [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], but also two Steel Clan robots – or rather, a Steel Clan robot and an [[Iron Clan]] robot (apparently left over from [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]]). (Evidently Xanatos is not worried about the gargoyles discovering that he's behind the threat to the Stone of Destiny.) While Griff and Coco take out the Steel Clan robots, Lexington is injured by Coyote, and Hudson almost maimed by Coldsteel – but fortunately, Coldsteel's designs on the oldest member of the clan are foiled by the arrival of [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] on the final page....<br />
<br />
We still have many questions yet to answer. Why has Arthur disappeared? Why are the [[Illuminati]] and Xanatos interested in the Stone of Destiny (assuming that it's their real goal)? What is the significance of Xanatos pushing a red button on November 12? And what does [[Fox]] buying shoes have to do with all this? [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], the next issue, should (we hope) provide solutions for all (or almost all) of these mysteries.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Jeremiah]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Tamar Tea Tephi]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Pelles]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Merlin]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Old Pog]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lunette]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Saint Columba]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] (No LInes)<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Knight's Spur]]<br />
* [[Victoria Tower]]<br />
* [[Tara]]<br />
* [[Dalriada]]<br />
* [[Tintagel]]<br />
* [[Castle Carbonek]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Nightstone's Coffee]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Brave words for a metal ghost!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Been sleep-walking for nine hundred thirty-nine years." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "Guess I got the better bargain." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "So here's to the immortals-there aren't many like us..." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "<Hmph> watch who you're callin' a yank, lass..." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "My friends call me Amp!"<br />
:"Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" - Staghart and Constance<br />
<br />
* "All things are true...few things are accurate." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "Dream on, you electric sheep!" - Lexington<br />
<br />
* "Would you prefer I lost on purpose?"<br />
:"I'd fire you if you did." - Shari and Thailog<br />
<br />
* "Like I need the gun." - Constance<br />
<br />
* "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?" - Staghart<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]]'s flight to Japan is No. 994; [[Timeline#994|994]] is the year of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
Most of Shari's account of the Stone of Destiny's history is based on actual legends about it (including its links to Jeremiah and [[Tamar Tea Tephi|Tea]], Cu Chullain striking it in half, Fergus bringing it to [[Dalriada]], Columba dying beside it, and Kenneth mac Alpin and his successors being crowned upon it). Its identification as the Stone from the Sword in the Stone is entirely new (though it goes back all the way to "Pendragon"); we finally have the details for how that came about.<br />
<br />
The apparent inconsistency in Shari's story of how the Stone of Destiny came to Ireland (one version having Moses give it to Gathelus and Scota, the other having Moses keep it during the Exodus and Jeremiah and Tamar bring it to Ireland), which Thailog calls her on, foreshadows the revelation of the Stone's true nature in "Rock of Ages".<br />
<br />
The date of Arthur's mortal wound and conveyance to Avalon, 542, comes from Geoffrey of Monmouth's ''History of the Kings of Britain''.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur's coffee cups are labeled "[[Nightstone's Coffee|Nightstone's]]"; apparently either [[Demona]] or Thailog has decided to go into the coffee business. Their labels are written in the ''Gargoyles'' font.<br />
<br />
Constance and Staghart's nicknames are references to the original comedy development of ''Gargoyles''. Coco was at first the name for a heavy-set female gargoyle, the forebearer of [[Broadway]]; Amp was the name of [[Brooklyn]]'s comedy counterpart (though he physically resembled Lexington more than Brooklyn). Later on, Hudson completes the references to the comedy development's trio when he addresses the other gargoyles as "lads and lassie"; Lassie was the name of the comedy precursor of Lexington.<br />
<br />
One of the books that Arthur is consulting is Sir [[Thomas Malory]]'s ''[[Le Morte d'Arthur]]'', the famous 15th century English prose romance that has become the leading primary source for the Arthurian legend in modern times.<br />
<br />
Arthur repeats [[Seline]]'s famous line from [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] (which [[Greg Weisman]] has quoted several times at [[Ask Greg]]), "All things are true", but adds to it "Few things are accurate". In 2010, he commented that the amended line is one of his personal favorite lines he's ever written. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11897]<br />
<br />
[[Lunette]], one of the youngest members of the London Clan, is named after the Lunette of Chretien de Troyes' Arthurian verse romance ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvain%2C_the_Knight_of_the_Lion Yvain, the Knight of the Lion]''. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10425]<br />
<br />
Lexington's cry to Coyote, "Dream on, you electric sheep!" is an allusion to Philip K. Dick's ''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?''<br />
<br />
Thailog and Shari repeat (with some minor changes) Xanatos and [[Owen Burnett|Owen]]'s exchange at the start of [[The Edge|"The Edge"]], when Shari asks Thailog if he would prefer she deliberately lost to him at chess.<br />
<br />
When asked if they are mated to each other, Constance and Staghart deny it vigorously, but with a lighthearted tone of being very close friends.<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*On Sale at [http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Gargoyles-8___287340 TFAW]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=840 Chronological adaptation Chapter VIII]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Rock|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Seven: "The Rock"]]''' <br />
| '''[[Rock of Ages|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Nine: "Rock of Ages" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Rock_of_Ages&diff=39542Rock of Ages2023-11-25T01:48:32Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic9.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #9 by Greg Guler]]<br />
<br />
'''"Rock of Ages"''' is the ninth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Nine of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc.<br />
<br />
On August 31, 2008, SLG's license to produce single issues of the ''Gargoyles'' comic ended. The material that would have made up single issues nine through twelve is included in the trade paperback collection ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director/Cover Pencil Artist: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: unknown<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
CLAN BUILDING: Chapter 9, "Rock of Ages" - [[David Xanatos]] makes his final play for the Rock - in broad daylight when the [[gargoyle]]s sleep as [[Stone Sleep|stone]]! But will the [[Illuminati]] be pleased with the end result? And what's this obsession over [[Fox]]'s new shoes?<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
While [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] encounters security inside [[Westminster Abbey]], [[Lexington]], [[Hudson]], [[Constance]], and [[Staghart]] continue battling [[Coldsteel]] and [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]] who retreat with the arrival of [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]]. The following morning during the Stone’s transport on the [[Coldstream Bridge]], Coldstone and Coldfire engage Coldsteel and Coyote, where ultimately Coldfire subdues Coldsteel, and Coldstone destroys Coyote. <br />
Xanatos remotely switches the Stone in the convoy and later trades off with [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]] of the Illuminati. She leaves [[Leith]] for [[Castle Carbonek|Carbonek]] where she informs [[Peredur fab Ragnal]] they have the [[Stone of Destiny]]. The Stone however, chastises Peredur (and [[Macbeth]], Arthur, and Xanatos) that it is the Spirit of Destiny and cannot be possessed. Further, the Stone reveals to Peredur that King Arthur is awake once more.<br />
The London clan wish Hudson and Lexington to stay longer and Coldstone and Coldfire reconsider whether to continue pursuing Coldsteel.<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
Xanatos’s careful placement of Fox’s manolos shoe box is revealed to be the source of the bomb threat at Coldstream Bridge. He’s also revealed as the one who gave Coldstone and Coldfire the means to track Coldsteel, providing plenty of distraction for all parties involved.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] finishes her tales regarding the Stone of Destiny, leading up the present with Macbeth asking the [[Manhattan Clan]] for help from “The Rock”. [[Thailog]] beats her in chess.<br />
<br />
Coldsteel returns the [[Coyote Diamond]] to Xanatos, after Coyote 5.0’s demise.<br />
<br />
The Stone and [[Holy Grail]] exchange greetings.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 15, 8:15 PM, GMT. KNIGHT'S SPUR - Hudson is saying "Aye, lad, but it's a mighty big world... and even the banished and the badduns eventually return to the clan."<br />
<br />
November 11, 12:11 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - Coldsteel responds to the arrival of Coldstone and Coldfire by mockingly remarking that it's "turning into quite the reunion".<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:45 PM, GMT. MAYFAIR - Fox, having bought her shoes, comments to Xanatos, "Mission accomplished."<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:31 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - King Arthur tells Macbeth and the gargoyles that they might not need to guard the Stone of Destiny after all.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:18 AM, GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY [Westminster Abbey] - Arthur raises the lid of the chest in which the Stone is being kept and gazes inside.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:40 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Shari tells Thailog how Edward I of England made war on the Scots and carried off the Stone of Destiny. He then placed the Stone within the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey, where it played a part in the coronations of the Kings and Queens of England from then on.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:12 AM, GST. WESTMINSTER ABBEY - King Arthur creeps out behind the Coronation Chair, knocks out a couple of security guards (with apologies), and places his crown upon his head as he stands over the chest in which the Stone is stored.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:12 AM, GST. VICTORIA TOWER - Lexington comes to, and rejoins the battle. With a bit of skillful maneuvering, Lexington and Staghart lead the Steel Clan and Iron Clan robots into Coyote's line of fire, resulting in their both being destroyed. Coldfire asks Coldstone if he's feeling outnumbered now, to which Hudson (recovering his sword from Coldsteel's tentacles) adds "over-matched". Coldsteel grumbles that he wasn't "expecting al the company".<br />
<br />
November 13, 6:01 AM, GMT+8. TIBET - Coldfire hears a signal, and tells Coldstone "I believe I can find him."<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:17 AM, GMT. VICTORIA TOWER - Coldsteel and Coyote retreat, Coldsteel muttering "Tomorrow is another day."<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:42 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Shari tells Thailog how Robert the Bruce defeated the English at the Battle of Bannockburn, with help from an Irish king named Cormac MacCarthy (and also an incognito Macbeth). To thank Cormac, Robert the Bruce gave him a piece of the Stone of Destiny, which Cormac's descendants placed in Blarney Castle; there it became the famous Blarney Stone (wh9ich Shari mentions kissing once or twice).<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - As a security guard calls for the bomb unit, Macbeth and King Arthur locate Xanatos in the crowd watching the Stone of Destiny's return to Scotland. Macbeth reports their finding to Coldstone via radio-link - "Safe to say he's up to something." Coldstone agrees as he and Coldfire have just spotted Coyote and Coldsteel approaching the bridge. They do battle. Coldsteel seizes Coldfire in his tentacles, while Coyote strikes Coldstone from behind with a chain-saw. Coldsteel gloats over being able to fight in the daytime, without the regular gargoyles around to "even the odds". Coldfire rams him in the face with her head, saying "Considered the odds evened", damaging him (and forcing him to speak with a stutter for a while). Coyote states that, because of Xanatos's "respect for Goliath", he's been programmed to only inflict as much damage as necessary - but he gets to define "necessary". "Define this," replies Coldstone, smashing Coyote's face-screen with his fist, then shoving his arm-cannon into the resulting opening and opening fire. The resuting explosion destroys Coyote. Coldsteel laments Coyote's fate, pointing out that he had potential.<br />
<br />
nOVEMBER 15, 6:16 AM, GMT. LEITH - Coyote tells Coldsteel that he is not programmed for free will. "Pity," says Coldsteel. "You have potential."<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:05 AM, GMT. RIVER TWEED - Coldsteel dives into the river to escape the other two members of the ColdTrio. Coldstone dives in after him, but is unable to find him.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:40 AM GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - Coldstone radios his report to Macbeth. The convoy transporting the Stone of Destiny resumes its journey.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:00 PM, GMT. EDINBURGH CASTLE - Macbeth tells King Arthur that the Stone is back where it belongs - amending that statement to add that it actually belongs in Scone, rather than Edinburgh. But at least its been returned to Scotland.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:36 PM, GMT. LEITH - The car that transported the Stone drives into a warehouse, where Xanatos is waiting.<br />
<br />
November 15, 3:59 PM, GMT. LEITH - Xanatos and a blonde woman exchange greetings - "Thirty-six." "Three." The woman (Blanchefleur) asks Xanatos if there'd been any problems; he replies, "Only finding a duplicate on such short notice."<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:12 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - Xanatos, still standing between Macbeth and King Arthur, <!--and, naturally, matter-of-fact about being next to two famous legendary medieval British kings--> surreptitiously pushes a button, rotating the floor of the car in which the Stone of Destiny is being stored so that it is replaced by a duplicate stone, hidden underneath until this moment. A Coldstream Guard protests to some musicians <?--presumably bagpipes-players--> to not play so loud; the bomb squad's busy.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:38 AM, GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE - The bomb squad reports that the object blocking the road had been only an empty shoebox.<br />
<br />
November 7, 7:19 PM, GMT. LONDON - Xanatos asks Fox, as she poses in front of the mirror in her new shoes, if she still wants the shoebox, or if he can take care of it.<br />
<br />
November 15, 4:04 PM, GMT. LEITH - Blanchefleur drives off in the car, arriving at a castle (Carbonek). A grim-looking bald man with a cybernetic eye and arm (Duval) is waiting for her in the castle gateway, declaring his number - "Two". Blanchefleur only responds with a harsh remark, to his anger. A fair-haired clean-shaven man steps forward, asking them to please make peace - "Since you are, after all, the two people I love most in this world?" BLanchefleur reports that she brought the Stone.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:40 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED - Thailog, still playing chess with Shari, calls "Check" on her. Shari merely tells another tale, this time of the 1950 raid on Westminster Abbey in which "a band of Scottish patriots" (including Macbeth) carried off the Stone of Destiny, but accidentally dropped it and broke it in half while still in the Abbey.<br />
<br />
April 11, 1951. 1:06 AM, GMT. ARBROATH ABBEY - Macbeth has just finished gluing the Stone of Destiny back together, when it speaks, telling him that his "effort was pointless".<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:06 PM, GMT. LEITH - The Stone similarly addresses Xanatos, telling him that his plan to deliver the Illuminati a second duplicate Stone while keeping the "real" one for himself was also "pointless".<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:06 PM [sic], GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY - It likewise speaks to King Arthur, telling him that it was "pointless" trying to protect it....<br />
<br />
November 16, 1:06 AM, GMT. CASTLE CARBONEK - ...and likewise tells the fair-haired man, Peredur fab Ragnal, that it was "pointless" to have gone to all that trouble "merely to possess a rock".<br />
<br />
April 11, 1951, 1:07 AM, GMT. ARBROATH ABBEY - Macbeth...<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:07 PM, GMT. LEITH - Xanatos...<br />
<br />
November 15, 1:07 AM, GMT. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY - King Arthur...<br />
<br />
November 16, 1:07 AM, GMT. CASTLE CARBONEK - and Peredur all listen in silence as the Stone of Destiny reveals that there is no single "Stone of Destiny"; any stone, anywhere in the world,, can serve as a mouthpiece for the "Spirit of Destiny" <!--which explains the seeming discrepancy in Shari's earlier tales about the Stone's movements at the time of the Exodus.--> It lists its various identities, including not only the ones from Shari's tales earlier, but others, such as the Philosopher's Stone, the Burden of Sisyphus, the Rock of Gibraltar, Uluru, and the Rosetta Stone. It climaxes with "I am the Stone of Destiny... I am the Rock of Ages! Do not dream of possessing me, mortal." It also tells Peredur (with BLanchefleur also in the room, listening in) that King Arthur has awakened and returned from Avalon. Peredur is alarmed; Arthur was not supposed to awake for another two centuries. He leaves the room, planning to alert the leading members of the Illuminati to this upset of their plans. After he leaves, the Stone exchanges (surprisingly informal) greetings with a wooden bowl next to it - the Holy Grail.<br />
<br />
November 15, 2:23 PM, GMT. LEITH - Coldsteel (now repaired from his damages) returns what's left of Coyote to Xanatos, as well as the Coyote Diamond (about which Xanatos states that he's "just its minder"). As per their agreement, Xanatos permanently deactivates Coldsteel's tracking device. "Pleasure doing business with you," says Coldsteel.<br />
<br />
November 15, 8:13 PM, GMT. KNIGHT'S SPUR. Even after this revelation of the Stone of Destiny's true nature, Macbeth admits to King Arthur that he's still glad it was returned to Scotland. The London clan invite Hudson, Lexington, Coldstone and Coldfire to stay with them a while. Coldstone is hesitant, pointing out that Coldsteel is still at large. "Aye, lad," says Hudson, "but it's a mighty big world...."<br />
<br />
November 16, 5:44 AM, EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED. Thailog finally checkmates Shari, who merely tells how the Stone of Destiny was eventually returned to Westminster Abbey after its 1950 "theft" - though some believe that only a duplicate was returned in its place - and how it was at last taken to Edinburgh "without incident" the day before. Thailog asks her if that's all she knows about the Stone of Destiny. Shari replies that there's one last tale - opening with Owen and Macbeth upon the battlements of Castle Wyvern, by Goliath in stone sleep, waiting....<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
After over a year, "Rock of Ages" has finally been released, bringing the Stone of Destiny story to a satisfying conclusion.<br />
<br />
The struggle over the Stone of Destiny between Xanatos and his robots (including Coldsteel and Coyote) on one side, and the gargoyles (including the reinforcements of Coldstone and Coldfire), Macbeth, and King Arthur continues, extending even into the daytime, as the ColdTrio and Coyote battle it out (appropriately enough, at Coldstream Bridge). Coyote finally receives the same fate as his four predecessors (demolished by Coldstone), and Coldsteel damaged enough to be forced to retreat. There are hints that the Coyote series is moving closer to full sentience; Coldsteel speaks thoughtfully of the robot's potential.<br />
<br />
Xanatos achieves a victory, of a sort, successfully making off with the Stone, which finds its way to the Illuminati leadership. Yet, all four of the humans fighting over it (Macbeth, Arthur, Xanatos, and the Illuminati's leader, the newly-introduced Peredur fab Ragnal) learn from the Stone how pointless their struggle ultimately is, for the Stone is far more than a mere rock; it is a transcendent force that no mortal can ultimately possess. The scene where it makes this revelation to them is one of the most moving moments in the story. (And typically, Xanatos alone among the four does not seem awed, merely listening to the Stone with his usual sneaky smile.)<br />
<br />
We meet not only Peredur, the head of the Illuminati, at Carbonek, but also [[Duval]] (introduced in [[The Journey|"The Journey"]] and now on-stage at last), an ominous-looking cyborg, and Blanchefleur (who ranks as one of the Illuminati's three Number Threes) - providing one of the greatest jolts in the series. Greg Weisman's original announced plan was for Peredur (under the name of Percival) and Duval to be the same person; now it turns out that they are separate people. (Few readers will ever take [[:Category:Canon-in-training|"canon-in-training"]] for granted again!) And Peredur and Blanchefleur learn, to their consternation, that Arthur is awake and abroad in the outside world again - two hundred years ahead of schedule (which contains a hint of what hour of need Arthur was originally supposed to be awakened for in the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]]). Peredur, shaken, plans to alert the upper echelon members of the Society at once.<br />
<br />
Shari continues to narrate the story of the Stone, bringing it down to the present day - and, in fitting style, concluding at the very point that #7 begins. To quote Goliath in [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]], "Things have come full circle."<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
<br />
===Characters ===<br />
* [[Edward I]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Robert the Bruce]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Cormac Maccarthy]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Fleur|Blanchefleur]]<br />
* [[Duval]]<br />
* [[Peredur fab Ragnal]]<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Coldstream Bridge]]<br />
* [[Arbroath Abbey]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Holy Grail]]<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Battle of Bannockburn]]<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
The title of this chapter is a reference to the famous hymn composed by Reverend Augustus Toplady, inspired by the refuge he found in a cave in Somerset from a thunderstorm in 1775.<br />
<br />
Shari concludes her account of the Stone of Destiny's history, including [[Edward I]]'s seizing it in [[Timeline#995-1994|1296]], Robert the Bruce giving a piece of it to his Irish ally Cormac Maccarthy after the [[Battle of Bannockburn]] in [[Timeline#995-1994|1314]], which would become the [[Blarney Stone]], and the [[Timeline#995-1994|1950]] theft from Westminster Abbey (already alluded to in [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]). All of these are actual stories about the Stone of Destiny, rather than inventions of the comic book.<br />
<br />
Macbeth is depicted as taking part in the Battle of Bannockburn, on the Scots' side.<br />
<br />
When Xanatos signals Coldstone and Coldfire to return, they are in [[Tibet]]; apparently they had gone back there following the events of [[Possession|"Possession"]].<br />
<br />
Peredur fab Ragnal, introduced in this episode, is apparently the Gargoyles Universe version of Sir Percival. "Peredur" is the Welsh version of Percival; "fab Ragnal", Welsh for "son of Ragnal", alludes to Roger Lancelyn Green's depiction of Percival as the son of Sir Gawain and Lady Ragnell (Green's retelling of the Arthurian cycle is one of Greg Weisman's favorite versions). (Presumably, Peredur reckons his descent from Ragnal because Percival was raised by his mother in the various renditions of his story.)<br />
<br />
The Stone of Destiny lists among its other identities (besides those that Shari mentioned in her story): the Stone of Mora (the stone upon which the Kings of Sweden were crowned until the [[Timeline#995-1994|15th century]]), the [[Philosopher's Stone]] (a magic stone sought by alchemists which could turn lead into gold), the [[Burden of Sisyphus]] (in Greek mythology, Sisyphus was condemned to eternally push a mighty rock up a hill in the Underworld), the [[Rock of Gibraltar]], the [[Pillars of Hercules]] (the original name, in the classical world, of the Straits of Gibraltar), [[Uluru]] (a sacred mountain in [[Australia]], also known as Ayer's Rock), and the [[Rosetta Stone]] (the stone that French linguist Jean-Francois Champollion used to discover how to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics, now on display in the British Museum).<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=841 Chronological adaptation Chapter IX]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Rock and Roll|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Eight: "Rock & Roll"]]''' <br />
| '''[[The Gate|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Ten: "The Gate" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Rock_and_Roll&diff=39539Rock and Roll2023-11-24T01:38:34Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''The correct title of this article is Rock & Roll. The ampersand has been replaced because of technical restrictions.<br />
<br />
[[Image:GargoylesComic8.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #8 by Greg Guler & Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
'''"Rock & Roll"''' is the eighth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Eight of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc. It was released on March 26, 2008. The issue was reprinted in ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil & Cover Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: [[Jorge Molina]]<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
From the Holy Land to the British Isles... everyone wants a piece of the Rock. [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]], [[Macbeth]], [[Coldsteel]], [[Thailog]], [[Merlin]], [[Cu Chullain]] and the [[gargoyle]]s strive to find it, possess it and learn its darkest secrets. All this and [[Fox]]'s new shoes in ''CLAN-BUILDING, Chapter 8: Rock & Roll.''<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
<br />
The story continues from the last issue, [[The Rock|"The Rock"]]. In [[London]], [[Macbeth]] and [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] realize that they share the same mission of protecting the [[Stone of Destiny]]. [[Hudson]] and [[Lexington]] meet up with [[Griff]], [[Staghart]], and [[Constance]] of the [[London Clan]], who bring the two [[Manhattan Clan]] members to their clan's home at [[Knight's Spur]], while Arthur and Macbeth stand vigil through the day. They all go out later that night to stand watch at the Abbey, and are attacked by [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], [[Coldsteel]], and a [[Steel Clan]] and [[Iron Clan]] robot. Macbeth and Arthur watch the scene from the ground when Arthur mysteriously disappears. The two gargoyle robots are disposed of, but Coyote takes out Lexington, who is saved by Staghart, and Coldsteel nearly dismembers Hudson when [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] show up.<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]] is boarding his flight for [[Japan]].<br />
<br />
A man calls for a bomb unit on a bridge.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] continues telling [[Thailog]] about the Stone of Destiny, while the two play chess. Shari's stories contradict each other as she begins the tale with [[Moses]] taking the stone along with him during the Exodus, and bringing forth water from it for his thirsty followers. The stone is passed down through the centuries until [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] of [[Ireland]] accepted it as dowry when he married Princess [[Tamar Tea Tephi]], and brought it to [[Tara]]. The stone was later cut in half by [[Cu Chullain]], angry that it didn't confirm his friend [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] as King. [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] of Ireland brought a stone half to [[Scotland]], where [[Merlin]] and King [[Pelles]] contact him at [[Castle Carbonek]], borrowing the stone so that Arthur could pull [[Excalibur]] from it. [[Saint Columba]] died upon the stone on [[Iona]], and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] was crowned King upon the stone at [[Scone]], as were all the Kings of Scotland thereafter.<br />
<br />
Arthur and Macbeth trade stories about their pasts over [[Nightstone's Coffee]]. They make a toast to immortals.<br />
<br />
Arthur explains that he and Griff have searched fruitlessly for Merlin, so they returned to London where Arthur has been researching his own exploits.<br />
<br />
Lexington talks to Staghart and Constance about the London Clan, which is revealed to have 196 members, 25 eggs, but no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]]. Mated pairs in the clan are only allowed two [[egg]]s a lifetime to keep the population under control.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:40 AM, GMT. "Welcome to Knight's Spur," says Griff, gliding over an English stately home in the middle of a forest, with gargoyle silhouettes surrounding it.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:05 AM, GMT. Hudson and Coldsteel do battle.<br />
<br />
November 4, 5:35 AM, EST. Vinnie eagerly boards Fight 994 for Japan.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. Atop Coldstream Bridge, someone calls for the Bomb Unit - "now!"<br />
<br />
November 8, 5:34 AM, EST. As they play chess, Shari tells Thailog how, during their wandering in the desert, Moses supplied the Hebrews with water by striking Jacob's Pillow. Thailog points out the discrepancy with her earlier story, in which Moses gave the Stone to Gathelus and Scota before the Exodus took place. Shari is unrattled, and simply goes on to tell another tale from the Stone of Destiny's history - how the prophet Jeremiah and Princess Tamar Tea Tephi of Judah brought the Stone to Ireland, where Tamar married King Eochaid. Jeremiah gave the king the Stone as Tamar's dowry; Eochaid set it up at Tara and named it the Lia Fail.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:51 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth now recognize each other. Macbeth explains that he came to London to protect the Stone of Destiny.<br />
<br />
September 29, 1040. Macbeth is crowned King of Scotland upon the Stone of Destiny....<br />
<br />
September 29, 500. ...just as the young Arthur Pendragon was crowned upon the Stone by King Pelles, over five hundred years earlier.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:53 PM, GMT. King Arthur and Macbeth realize that they share the same cause - then also realize, to their alarm, that their gargoyle allies will be fighting each other.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11: 52 PM, GMT. Fortunately, Griff has recognized Hudson and Lexington, and peace has prevailed.<br />
<br />
November 12, 10:00 PM, GMT. Xanatos pulls out a device from his jacket and presses its button.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:28 AM, GMT. Macbeth tells Lexington and Hudson to go with Griff, while he and King Arthur keep watch in the daytime.<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:48 AM, GMT. At a coffee shop in London, Arthur and Macbeth swap tales about their pasts. "So here's to the immortals," says Macbeth. "There aren't many like us."<br />
<br />
November 9, 5:36 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how the Lia Fail refused to acknowledge Lugaid Red-Stripe, a claimant to the throne, as King of Ireland. Lugaid's friend Cu Chullain was so furious that he struck the Stone of Destiny in half with his great spear, the Gae Bolga.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:33 AM, GMT. Griff explains to Hudson and Lexington that they're going, not to the Into the Mystic shop in Soho, but to Knight's Spur. He introduces them to the other two London gargoyles, Constance and Staghart. Staghart states that his friends call him Amp. "Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" says Constance.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:06 AM, GMT. Lexington shouts to Staghart, "Amp! Look out!", and shoves him out of the way of Coyote's attack. The gargoyles are fighting a group comprised of Coldsteel, Coyote, a Steel Clan robot and and Iron Clan robot. Griff asks why the last two resemble Goliath; "Long story," replies Lexington.<br />
<br />
On the ground below, Macbeth and King Arthur are watching the aerial battle. Macbeth recognizes the robots as Xanatos's work, and concludes that Xanatos must be after the Stone - but that the robot attack seems to be a diversion. He then realizes that Arthur is gone.<br />
<br />
November 10, 5:37 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how Prince Fergus, when he led his people to the southwest of Scotland to found the kingdom of Dalriada, took half the Stone of Destiny with him. On the way to Scotland, he came to the castle of Carbonek (or, more accurately, it came to him), where Merlin and King Pelles persuaded him to lend them the Stone. They took it to London, where the young Arthur drew the sword Excalibur from it and thus became King of Britain.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. At Knight's Spur, Hudson meets with King Arthur and Macbeth in the library. Hudson asks Arthur about his quest for Merlin; Arthur explains that he and Griff had searched for the famous wizard in "all the obvious places", but without success. So Arthur is researching both Merlin and himself; among the books he's consulted is Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur. Hudson remarks "So many books... are any of them true?" "All things are true," Arthur replies, "few things are accurate." <!--A good point, given that neither Malory nor his predecessors made any mention of King Pelles' involvement with the Sword in the Stone.--> Macbeth agrees.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:32 PM, GMT. Meanwhile, as Lexington, Griff, Constance and Staghart watch over Westminster Abbey, Lex asks how many gargoyles are in the London clan. Griff replies that there are a hundred and ninety-six, with Old Pog being the eldest....<br />
<br />
November 14, 7:20 AM, GMT. The London gargoyles, as well as Hudson and Lexington, stand atop the roof of Knight's Spur in stone sleep.<br />
<br />
November 14, 6:34 PM, GMT. ...and Lunette and her rookery siblings being the youngest. Lexington asks if the clan has eggs; Griff replies that they have twenty-five. "So few," comments Lexington sadly. Constance explains that they keep the eggs' numbers deliberately low to avoid outgrowing their home; they only have two eggs per female, forcing each female gargoyle into confinement when the time comes to lay the third egg. Lexington is unsettled by that revelation.<br />
<br />
He then asks Constance and Staghart if they are mates; they amusedly reply that they're only "mates" in the British English sense (i.e., friends), not in the biological sense. Lexington changes the subject to gargoyle beasts; Griff sadly informs him they have none.<br />
<br />
November 11, 5: 38 AM, EST. As they play chess again, Shari tells Thailog about St. Columba, who tamed the Loch Ness Monster, and later passed on at Iona, his head resting upon the Stone of Destiny (which Merlin and King Pelles had brought to Iona after Arthur was crowned King).<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:00 AM, GMT. Hudson rejoins the other gargoyles in their vigil at Westminster, only for them to be attacked by Coyote, Coldsteel, and the two Clan robots. The other gargoyles take to the skies to fight the robots, while Hudson battles Coldsteel upon the Palace of Westminster's rooftop.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:08 AM, GMT. Coyote offers to leave the gargoyles alone if they vacate the area. "Dream on, you electric sheep!" cries Lexington, stating that they won't leave until they find out what Xanatos and Fox are up to.<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:41 PM, GMT. Fox purchases a pair of shoes at a shoeshop in London.<br />
<br />
November 12 5:39 AM, EST. Still playing chess with Thailog (and checking him, to his annoyance), Shari tells how Kenneth mac Alpin, first King of Scotland and a descendant of Prince Fergus, was crowned upon the Stone of Destiny at Scone - as would all the other Kings of Scotland (including Macbeth) for the next four centuries.<br />
<br />
November 15, 12:09 AM, GMT. Coyote responds to Lexington's defiance by zapping him. Staghart catches him in mid-air. Griff uses his "lightning gun" to shoot an arm off the Iron Clan robot. Constance is delighted - but has her own way of literally disarming a hostile robot, by ripping the arms off the Steel Clan robot. <!--Beowulf versus Grendel style, though she outdid the Geatish warrior in tearing both arms off.--><br />
<br />
Coldsteel mockingly suggests treating Hudson to the same fate - only here he'd be ripping an arm off a flesh-and-blood being. He raps his tentacles around the old gargoyle's sword-arm, but before he can pull the arm off, a blast of fire from above severs the tentacles. Coldstone and Coldfire hover over their heads, as Hudson and Coldsteel stare up at them; the intervention that saved Hudson was their doing. Staghart, still holding Lexington, asks "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?"<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
By Todd Jensen<br />
<br />
"Rock & Roll" continues the saga of the [[Stone of Destiny]], begun in "The Rock". We learn more about the Stone of Destiny's history (all the way down to 843 at least), and see the present-day struggle over it continue, with a few unexpected turns – and all still in the same non-linear style of "The Rock".<br />
<br />
"The Rock" ended with [[Macbeth]], [[Hudson]], and [[Lexington]] seemingly threatened by [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] and a few [[London]] gargoyles. Fortunately, Arthur quickly learns that Macbeth shares his concern over the Stone of Destiny's safety, and since [[Griff]] is one of the London gargoyles on the scene, Hudson and Lexington are soon making friends with the new gargoyles. These are [[Constance]] (nicknamed "[[Constance|Coco]]") and [[Staghart]] (nicknamed "[[Staghart|Amp]]" – though only Lexington calls him that). Both are lively young gargoyles; Coco, in particular, is a fine warrior, able to disarm (literally) a [[Steel Clan]] robot in aerial combat (outdoing Beowulf in his battle against Grendel by pulling both arms off). Staghart and Lexington have quickly developed into close friends.<br />
<br />
We learn more about the [[London Clan]] as well, and that the [[Into the Mystic]] shop is not their only property. The bulk of them live in the country estate of [[Knight's Spur]]. And they are a numerous clan – so numerous that they have to set up breeding strictures to prevent overpopulation. They also have no [[Gargoyle Beast|gargoyle beasts]] (the way that Griff reveals this almost suggests there is a story there).<br />
<br />
Arthur, in the meantime, is clearly developing from an enemy to Macbeth (as in [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] and [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]) into a friend and ally. The two of them share their thoughts over coffee on being immortal medieval kings in the modern world, and stand vigil over the Stone of Destiny together – until Arthur mysteriously disappears. We also learn that Arthur, unable to find [[Merlin]], has taken to studying the legends about himself and his famous advisor, in order to gain guidance.<br />
<br />
Speaking of legends, [[Shari]] is still narrating the backstory of the Stone of Destiny to [[Thailog]] – who points out some of the inconsistencies in her account. (Shari has provided a second version of the Stone's history in biblical times; now she claims that [[Moses]] took it with him during the [[Exodus]] rather than entrusting it to [[Gathelus]] and [[Scota]], that it was the stone he struck to provide the Israelites with water, and that it was brought to [[Ireland]] by the prophet [[Jeremiah]] some centuries later.) Shari, however, is not at all fazed by Thailog's response, and he has to back down in the end. Shari also tells how [[Cu Chullain]] split the Stone in half during a rage, how [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] took it with him to Ireland, and how the Stone became part of the young Arthur's Sword in the Stone feat. (We even see Merlin clearly for the first time in the comic – though in flashback form – and that he's wearing a cowboy hat. Merlin is also portrayed as partners with [[Pelles|King Pelles]] of [[Castle Carbonek]], entering the [[Gargoyles Universe]] for the first time.) Shari also reveals the Stone's links to [[Saint Columba]] (already connected to the Gargoyles Universe through his taming the [[Loch Ness Monster]]) and [[Kenneth mac Alpin]], the founder of [[Scotland]].<br />
<br />
Back in London, the gargoyles find themselves attacked by [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]]'s forces: not only [[Coldsteel]] and [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]], but also two Steel Clan robots – or rather, a Steel Clan robot and an [[Iron Clan]] robot (apparently left over from [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]]). (Evidently Xanatos is not worried about the gargoyles discovering that he's behind the threat to the Stone of Destiny.) While Griff and Coco take out the Steel Clan robots, Lexington is injured by Coyote, and Hudson almost maimed by Coldsteel – but fortunately, Coldsteel's designs on the oldest member of the clan are foiled by the arrival of [[Coldstone]] and [[Coldfire]] on the final page....<br />
<br />
We still have many questions yet to answer. Why has Arthur disappeared? Why are the [[Illuminati]] and Xanatos interested in the Stone of Destiny (assuming that it's their real goal)? What is the significance of Xanatos pushing a red button on November 12? And what does [[Fox]] buying shoes have to do with all this? [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], the next issue, should (we hope) provide solutions for all (or almost all) of these mysteries.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Jeremiah]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Eochaid|King Eochaid]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Tamar Tea Tephi]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lugaid Red-Stripe]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Fergus|Prince Fergus]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Pelles]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Merlin]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Old Pog]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Lunette]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Saint Columba]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] (No LInes)<br />
<br />
===Location===<br />
* [[Knight's Spur]]<br />
* [[Victoria Tower]]<br />
* [[Tara]]<br />
* [[Dalriada]]<br />
* [[Tintagel]]<br />
* [[Castle Carbonek]]<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* [[Nightstone's Coffee]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Brave words for a metal ghost!" - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "Been sleep-walking for nine hundred thirty-nine years." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "Guess I got the better bargain." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "So here's to the immortals-there aren't many like us..." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "<Hmph> watch who you're callin' a yank, lass..." - Hudson<br />
<br />
* "My friends call me Amp!"<br />
:"Nobody calls you Amp, luv!" - Staghart and Constance<br />
<br />
* "All things are true...few things are accurate." - Arthur<br />
<br />
* "Dream on, you electric sheep!" - Lexington<br />
<br />
* "Would you prefer I lost on purpose?"<br />
:"I'd fire you if you did." - Shari and Thailog<br />
<br />
* "Like I need the gun." - Constance<br />
<br />
* "Anyone order up the kitchen sink?" - Staghart<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Vinnie Grigori|Vinnie]]'s flight to Japan is No. 994; [[Timeline#994|994]] is the year of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
Most of Shari's account of the Stone of Destiny's history is based on actual legends about it (including its links to Jeremiah and [[Tamar Tea Tephi|Tea]], Cu Chullain striking it in half, Fergus bringing it to [[Dalriada]], Columba dying beside it, and Kenneth mac Alpin and his successors being crowned upon it). Its identification as the Stone from the Sword in the Stone is entirely new (though it goes back all the way to "Pendragon"); we finally have the details for how that came about.<br />
<br />
The apparent inconsistency in Shari's story of how the Stone of Destiny came to Ireland (one version having Moses give it to Gathelus and Scota, the other having Moses keep it during the Exodus and Jeremiah and Tamar bring it to Ireland), which Thailog calls her on, foreshadows the revelation of the Stone's true nature in "Rock of Ages".<br />
<br />
The date of Arthur's mortal wound and conveyance to Avalon, 542, comes from Geoffrey of Monmouth's ''History of the Kings of Britain''.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur's coffee cups are labeled "[[Nightstone's Coffee|Nightstone's]]"; apparently either [[Demona]] or Thailog has decided to go into the coffee business. Their labels are written in the ''Gargoyles'' font.<br />
<br />
Constance and Staghart's nicknames are references to the original comedy development of ''Gargoyles''. Coco was at first the name for a heavy-set female gargoyle, the forebearer of [[Broadway]]; Amp was the name of [[Brooklyn]]'s comedy counterpart (though he physically resembled Lexington more than Brooklyn). Later on, Hudson completes the references to the comedy development's trio when he addresses the other gargoyles as "lads and lassie"; Lassie was the name of the comedy precursor of Lexington.<br />
<br />
One of the books that Arthur is consulting is Sir [[Thomas Malory]]'s ''[[Le Morte d'Arthur]]'', the famous 15th century English prose romance that has become the leading primary source for the Arthurian legend in modern times.<br />
<br />
Arthur repeats [[Seline]]'s famous line from [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] (which [[Greg Weisman]] has quoted several times at [[Ask Greg]]), "All things are true", but adds to it "Few things are accurate". In 2010, he commented that the amended line is one of his personal favorite lines he's ever written. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11897]<br />
<br />
[[Lunette]], one of the youngest members of the London Clan, is named after the Lunette of Chretien de Troyes' Arthurian verse romance ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvain%2C_the_Knight_of_the_Lion Yvain, the Knight of the Lion]''. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10425]<br />
<br />
Lexington's cry to Coyote, "Dream on, you electric sheep!" is an allusion to Philip K. Dick's ''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?''<br />
<br />
Thailog and Shari repeat (with some minor changes) Xanatos and [[Owen Burnett|Owen]]'s exchange at the start of [[The Edge|"The Edge"]], when Shari asks Thailog if he would prefer she deliberately lost to him at chess.<br />
<br />
When asked if they are mated to each other, Constance and Staghart deny it vigorously, but with a lighthearted tone of being very close friends.<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*On Sale at [http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Gargoyles-8___287340 TFAW]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=840 Chronological adaptation Chapter VIII]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[The Rock|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Seven: "The Rock"]]''' <br />
| '''[[Rock of Ages|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Nine: "Rock of Ages" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Rock&diff=39526The Rock2023-11-22T01:28:47Z<p>Merlyn: /* The Story */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GargoylesComic7.JPG|thumb|360px|Gargoyles #7 by Greg Guler & Robby Bevard]]<br />
<br />
'''"The Rock"''' is the seventh issue of the ''[[Gargoyles (SLG)|Gargoyles]]'' comic by [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]], and Chapter Seven of the ''Clan-Building'' story arc. It was released on December 12, 2007. The issue was reprinted in ''[[Gargoyles: Clan-Building, Volume Two]]''. It was adapted into a Radio Play and performed at the [[Gathering of the Gargoyles]] in 2008.<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[David Hedgecock]]<br />
*Color Artist: [[Robby Bevard]]<br />
*Art Director/Cover Pencil Artist: [[Greg Guler]]<br />
*Cover Color Artist: Robby Bevard<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
What's a [[gargoyle]] to do when [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]] is on the job for the [[Illuminati]]; [[Coldsteel]]'s in town; [[Thailog]]'s breaking in new assistants, and [[Macbeth]] needs a favor? Well, what else can you do except... ROAD TRIP!!!! As [[Goliath]] and [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] attempt to repair their relationship, the rest of the [[Manhattan Clan|clan]] contemplates a change of scene. But how far should they go to save a slab of stone? And why is [[Fox]] buying new shoes? Find out in ''CLAN-BUILDING, Chapter 7: The Rock''.<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
<br />
===Main Plot===<br />
<br />
[[Macbeth]] goes to the [[Eyrie Building]] to ask the [[Manhattan Clan]] for their help in ensuring the [[Stone of Destiny]]'s safe arrival to [[Scotland]] from [[Westminster Abbey]] in [[London]], explaining that many desire the stone, including [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]]. [[Goliath]], still recovering from [[Thailog]]'s attack, sends some of the others to help Macbeth. [[Brooklyn]], [[Angela]], and [[Broadway]] decide to stay behind, while [[Lexington]] and [[Hudson]] accompany Macbeth to London. The three of them stand vigil at Westminster Abbey on the night the stone is to be moved from the Lantern. Nothing happens for a long while, when Macbeth notices a mysterious shadow. He investigates only to be caught unawares by [[King Arthur Pendragon]], while the [[gargoyle]]s are suddenly joined by some new arrivals from the [[London Clan]].<br />
<br />
===Subplots===<br />
<br />
Xanatos proves that he is indeed up to something, while he explains to [[Coldsteel]] about the [[Coyote Diamond]], which he's using as a component for his robot, [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]]. He promises Coldsteel that he will disable his built in tracking device if he agrees to do Xanatos a favor. Later the same day, Xanatos prepares to leave for [[England]] while [[Owen Burnett|Owen]] spies on Macbeth and the gargoyles. He tells Xanatos of their plan, to which Xanatos responds that he's planned for this contingency.<br />
<br />
[[Fox]] is interested in a pair of shoes in a London shop.<br />
<br />
[[Shari]] begins telling Thailog the history of the Stone of Destiny during different time intervals on different days. She starts off with [[Jacob]]'s vision while laying his head upon the stone at Bethel. Next, she tells the story of [[Gathelus]] and [[Scota]], who brought the stone with them out of [[Egypt]] at the request of [[Moses]]. They travelled the world before finally settling down in [[Portugal]]. Later, after the deaths of Gathelus, Scota, and six of their sons, the oldest son, [[Eremon]], was crowned King upon the stone at [[Tara]] in [[Ireland]].<br />
<br />
[[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] brings [[Jay Sato|Dr. Sato]] to the [[Labyrinth]] to check on [[Maggie the Cat|Maggie]], who is revealed to be pregnant.<br />
<br />
Brooklyn is still upset about Broadway and Angela. Goliath notices and tells him he can stay in Manhattan. Broadway and Angela decide to stay to help Brooklyn, much to his chagrin.<br />
<br />
Shari tells Thailog the story of the love triangle between [[Coldstone]], [[Coldfire]], and Coldsteel.<br />
<br />
Goliath and Elisa talk about what happened on [[Halloween]]. Elisa indicates that she wants to pursue a relationship with Goliath, and they kiss.<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
<br />
November 2, 4:50 PM, EST. Owen and Macbeth stand upon the battlements of Castle Wyvern by Goliath in stone sleep, waiting. Cracks form in Goliath's stone shell as he awakes.<br />
<br />
November 2, 6:46 AM, EST. Xanatos tells an as-yet-unrevealed questioner that the diamond he is holding is the Coyote Diamond.<br />
<br />
November 15, 10:02 AM, GMT. A security figure calls for the bomb squad.<br />
<br />
November 14, 5:37 AM, GMT. Lexington tells someone "I'll call you Amp."<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:21 PM, GMT. Fox enters a shoe store and asks for a pair of black Manolos in Size 9.<br />
<br />
November 4, 5:30 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog how in Old Testament times, Jacob, fleeing the wrath of his brother Esau, fell asleep at Bethel, using a stone there as his pillow, and experienced "a wondrous vision" of angels ascending and descending a heavenly stairway.<br />
<br />
November 2, 5:12 PM, EST. At Castle Wyvern, Macbeth tells the now-assembled Manhattan clan about the Stone of Destiny, and how the Kings of Scotland were once crowned upon it.<br />
<br />
September 29, 1040. Macbeth is crowned King of Scotland upon the Stone of Destiny at Scone.<br />
<br />
November 2, 5:14 PM, EST. Macbeth goes on to explain how the English seized the Stone from the Scots but now, eight hundred years later <!--seven hundred years later, actually-->, it is being returned to Scotland. Macbeth is concerned that many will attempt to take advantage of the situation to steal the Stone, including the gargoyles' "landlord". He needs help to prevent this, and since Banquo and Fleance had left him to join the Quarrymen, has approached the gargoyles. Goliath states that he has been wounded twice in the past week, is "healed - but not whole", so recommends that the trio and Angela, under Brooklyn's command, go to Britain to assist Macbeth. Broadway, Angela, and Lexington are all thrilled at the prospect of visiting Scotland again; Brooklyn less so.<br />
<br />
November 3, 3:00 PM, GMT. Macbeth's plane lands at an airport in England. Macbeth shows the customs officials there two "works of art" for his house in Berkeley Square - actually Hudson and Lexington in stone sleep.<br />
<br />
November 2, 5:18 PM, EST. Owen, monitoring Macbeth's conversation with the gargoyles, asks Xanatos if he should prevent them from going to Britain. Xanatos, boarding his private plane, tells him not to bother; he's already planned for such an event.<br />
<br />
November 7, 2:18 PM, GMT. Xanatos, standing outside a shoe shop with Fox and Alex, tells her that if she likes a certain pair of shoes that much, she should buy them.<br />
<br />
November 5, 5:31 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog another story, this one of the Athenian prince Gathelus. Gathelus went to Egypt, where he rose in the Pharaoh's good graces through his victories in battle, and was rewarded with the hand of the Pharaoh's daughter Scota. But Gathelus and Scota had also made friends with Moses, who warned them of the Ten Plagues about to befall Egypt; the couple departed to avoid them, and Moses gave them Jacob's Pillow, now a sacred relic of the Hebrews.<br />
<br />
November 2, 3:52 PM, EST. Dr. Sato examines Maggie, while Talon, Elisa, Claw, and Al watch concernedly. Sato tells them that Maggie is recovering from Thailog's attack, but treating someone in her "condition" is outside his area of expertise.<br />
<br />
November 3, 4:30 PM, GMT. Macbeth pours a drink from a thermos bottle while waiting for Hudson and Lexington to awaken from stone sleep.<br />
<br />
November 3, 5:07 PM, GMT. And waits...<br />
<br />
November 3, 6:15 PM, GMT. And waits...<br />
<br />
November 3, 7:01 PM, GMT. And waits some more.<br />
<br />
November 3, 7:45 PM, GMT. Hudson and Lexington at last awake, the delay being thanks to jet lag. Macbeth tells them that they still have ten days to adjust to a different time zone before the Stone's due to be moved.<br />
<br />
November 6, 5:32 AM, EST. While Thailog and Brentwood search some rubble, Shari continues to tell the story of Gathelus and Scota. She recounts how, after leaving Egypt, they put in at Samothrace, where Scota gave birth to twins.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:32 PM, GMT. Hudson and Lexington silently watch over Westminster Abbey, where the Stone of Destiny is being kept.<br />
<br />
November 2, 5:15 PM, EST. Macbeth corrects Broadway's exuberance over visiting Scotland, stating that they're going to England first. Brooklyn expresses his concern about leaving Manhattan while Goliath is still recovering, and Goliath agrees that he should stay in the city, appointing Hudson in charge of the mission. Angela whispers something to Broadway, who promptly declares that he and Angela should also stay to help Brooklyn. Brooklyn is less than thrilled with this turn of events.<br />
<br />
November 13, 5:33 PM, GMT. Hudson and Lexington report to Macbeth that there's no sign of trouble; human security around Westminster Abbey is "tight as a drum". Hudson states that even a battering-ram couldn't break in; Macbeth replies "You'd be surprised".<br />
<br />
December 25, 1950. Macbeth prepares to break into Westminster Abbey, armed with a crowbar, accompanied by four off-stage eager Scottish patriots. <!--The "four" part about Macbeth's companions comes from the actual history of the 1950 break-in.--><br />
<br />
November 6, 6:00 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog (who is carrying her in his arms, Goliath-and-Elisa-style, Brentwood gliding after them) still more of Gathelus and Scota's story. The royal couple, after wandering the earth for two years, settle on the Iberian peninsula, at the Port of Gathelus (later shortened to "Portugal"). By now they have two more sons, and are still guardians of the Stone of Destiny.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:46 PM, GMT. Hudson and Lexington still have nothing to report. Hudson wonders aloud whom they should be expecting.<br />
<br />
November 2, 6:47 AM, EST. Xanatos explains to his still-off-stage ally about the properties of the Coyote Diamond, then goes on to tell how this ally has a built-in tracking device, which Xanatos will permanently de-activate in return for help on this mission. His ally, now revealed as Coldsteel, agrees to help, now teamed up with the latest Coyote robot, now amplified by the Coyote Diamond.<br />
<br />
November 3, 5:29 AM, EST. Shari tells Thailog the story of the ColdTrio, saying of it "It's really a timeless love story."<br />
<br />
November 4, 9:48 PM, EST. Goliath and Elisa meet atop the battlements of Castle Wyvern. Goliath is still concerned over the price that Elisa will have to pay as a result of their relationship, such as picnics and normalcy..<br />
<br />
November 2, 3:53 PM, EST. Dr. Sato reveals to Elisa that Maggie is pregnant. Maggie and Talon happily nuzzle at the news.<br />
<br />
November 4, 9:50 PM, EST. Elisa tells Goliath "We can have a picnic anytime... and normalcy's so over-rated." They joyfully embrace and kiss.<br />
<br />
November 7, 5:33 AM, EST. As they play chess, Shari tells Thailog yet more of Scota's story. After Gathelus's passing, the widowed Scota left Iberia with her sons (now grown to eight) and sailed to Ireland. Five of her sons perished during the voyage, and a sixth son, along with Scota herself, were slain in battle upon arriving in Ireland. Only two sons survived: the eldest, Eremon, and the youngest, Eber Finn. Eremon was crowned King of Ireland upon the Stone of Destiny at Tara.<br />
<br />
November 13, 11:47 PM, GMT. Macbeth is still keeping watch outside Westminster Abbey. Spotting a shadow, he pursues it down the steps to the London Underground, only to be seized from behind by King Arthur, who holds Excalibur to his throat. Hudson and Lexington have their own problems, as they are surrounded by three gargoyles: Griff, Constance, and Staghart....<br />
<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
"The Rock" has to be the most remarkable issue of ''Gargoyles'' to date; Greg Weisman arranges this story in a non-linear fashion, jumping about through the events during the first two weeks of November as seen by the various characters (and even as far back as [[Timeline#995-1994|1040]], at least). Fortunately, the events are all carefully located on the timeline by captions, allowing an attentive reader to discover in what order they are taking place.<br />
<br />
The focus is on the [[Stone of Destiny]], which had been introduced in [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]], played a larger role in [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]], and now takes center stage. The Stone is about to be returned to [[Scotland]] after seven hundred years (a real event from November 1996), but [[Macbeth]] is afraid that someone will try to steal it. Therefore, he calls upon the [[gargoyle]]s for assistance; [[Hudson]] and [[Lexington]] agree to help him, and accompany him to [[London]] while the rest of the clan remains behind in [[New York City|New York]].<br />
<br />
Macbeth is correct to be concerned about the Stone, for [[David Xanatos|Xanatos]] is setting his own plans in motion, that include a partnership between [[Coldsteel]] and the latest [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote]] robot, Coyote 5.0, now apparently powered or augmented by the [[Coyote Diamond]] from [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]]. What his precise goals are yet is unknown, but it is not difficult to suspect that they involve the Stone – and the instructions that he received from the [[Illuminati]] in [[Bash|"Bash"]].<br />
<br />
And as if that was not trouble enough, Macbeth, Hudson, and Lexington find themselves facing more unexpected opponents when [[King Arthur Pendragon|King Arthur]] and three [[London Clan|London gargoyles]] ([[Griff]] and two new gargoyles – one resembling a wild sow, the other a stag) appear on the scene, in a hostile mood...<br />
<br />
While this is going on in London, [[Shari]] tells [[Thailog]] (and occasionally [[Brentwood]]) the story of the Stone of Destiny's past, all the way down to its arrival in [[Ireland]]. Presumably, in the succeeding issues (#8 and #9) she will continue to narrate its fortunes all the way to the present day. These scenes are colored in sepia, keeping them distinct from the rest of the story. (In a wonderful touch, at one point Shari is shown telling the story as Thailog carries her through the sky, in what can only be a twisted echo of Goliath and [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]].)<br />
<br />
But not everything in this issue involves the Stone. [[Jay Sato|Dr. Sato]] is introduced to the [[Mutates]], bringing him further into the gargoyles' circle of human friends and allies – and reveals that [[Maggie the Cat|Maggie]] is pregnant. Goliath and Elisa fully accept the fact that they are meant to be together, in a moving scene with many echoes of their break-up in [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]] – though this time in a happier mood. Hudson and Lexington experience jet lag upon their arrival in London. And [[Fox]] (who has accompanied her husband to [[Great Britain|Britain]]) is buying a pair of shoes – though we shall have to wait for future issues to learn the significance of that...<br />
<br />
This is a fine issue, as well as a challenging one, and I look forward to seeing the continuation of this story in [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]].<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Jacob]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Angel]]s (No Lines)<br />
* [[Gathelus]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Scota]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Coyote (robot)|Coyote 5.0]]<br />
* [[Moses]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Eremon]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Eber Finn]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Constance]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Staghart]] (No Lines)<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Scone]]<br />
* [[Greece]]<br />
* [[Portugal]]<br />
* [[Samothrace]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
<br />
* "Magic talking stone. We've heard of it." - Brooklyn<br />
<br />
* "Don't you have...minions...for this?"<br />
:"We've parted ways." - Goliath and Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "It's as if you've revealed a new world to me..." - Dr. Sato<br />
<br />
* "Welcome, lad, to the wonderful world of jetlag." - Macbeth<br />
<br />
* "And though all strife comes to an end one way or another...some conflicts refuse to stay dead..." - Shari<br />
<br />
* "And normalcy's so over-rated." - Elisa<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
The caption on the front cover, "Stone...at night?!" echoes Goliath's cry in "Awakening: Part Two" on finding the trio, Hudson, and Bronx turned to stone.<br />
<br />
Shari's account of the Stone of Destiny's history – the stone that [[Jacob]] used for a pillow at Bethel, conveyed from the Middle East to Ireland by the Athenian prince [[Gathelus]] and his wife, the Egyptian princess [[Scota]] – is based on actual legend. (Variations of this tale have Gathelus and Scota driven into exile after Pharaoh was drowned while trying to cross the Red Sea and the surviving Egyptian nobles feared that Gathelus would attempt to seize his father-in-law's throne, or have Gathelus still alive when his family reached Ireland.)<br />
<br />
On Page 2, Lexington is saying to an as yet undisclosed someone or something (in "Rock and Roll", his addressee is revealed to be [[Staghart]]), "I'll call you [[Staghart|Amp]]". The name is an in-joke; in the original development of ''Gargoyles'', when it was designed as a comedy, one of the gargoyles was named Amp. (He looked much like Lexington, appropriately, but in character was closer to [[Brooklyn]].)<br />
<br />
The flashback to Macbeth's coronation on Page 4 clashes with its depiction in "City of Stone" Part Three: for example, in the television episode, Macbeth is crowned in the great hall of a castle, while in the comic book, he is crowned outdoors. According to Robby Bevard, the colorist for this issue, this was because the television episode had mishandled the coronation scene, and so Greg decided that he "might as well do the thing right this time", as Robby put it. [[Demona]] and [[Gruoch]] are both shown attending the coronation.<br />
<br />
On the same page, Macbeth incorrectly states that the Stone is being returned to Scotland "after eight hundred years"; it should be "seven hundred years", since the Stone was seized by the English in [[Timeline#995-1994|1296]].<br />
<br />
Macbeth alludes to [[Banquo]] and [[Fleance]] having deserted him for [[John Castaway|Castaway]].<br />
<br />
Macbeth is revealed as having a house in Berkeley Square, which contains one of the most infamous haunted houses in England (at No. 50). While Greg is aware of this, he chose this location for two different reasons: one was that it was the home of a close friend of his parents, the other was that he had been recently listening a lot to the song "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square".<br />
<br />
Greg Weisman also stated that: "I do feel I missed a bet on the Macbeth waiting page (Page 10). There should have been a panel right before the last panel on the page showing only the stone Lex and Hudson and no Macbeth. The copy would have read as follows: <br />
CAPTION 1: NOVEMBER 3, 6:44PM GMT. <br />
CAPTION 2: BATHROOM BREAK." [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10164]<br />
<br />
It is also revealed that Macbeth took part in the real-life theft of the Stone of Destiny from [[Westminster Abbey]] on Christmas, 1950.<br />
<br />
The story beginning in this issue and continuing in [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] and [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], involving the real-life return of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey to [[Scotland]] in late [[Timeline#1996|1996]], is a story idea that Greg Weisman revealed he intended to use even before the year 2000. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4798] It was originally intended to appear in the ''[[Pendragon (spin-off)|Pendragon]]'' spin-off.<br />
<br />
In the panel in which Xanatos encourages Fox to buy the shoes she likes, the Clock Tower of the Houses of Parliament (most famous for housing the bell known as Big Ben) is visible in the background. In a small nit, the caption for the panel says the time is 2:18 PM GMT, whereas the Clock Tower reads 5:30.<br />
<br />
When Shari relates the story of the Coldtrio to Thailog, [[Hakon]]'s hand and [[mace]] appear in the top right panel. This is an allusion to the [[Wyvern Massacre]] in which the three gargoyles lost their lives.<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*On Sale at [http://www.slgcomic.com/product-exec/product_id/532/nm/Gargoyles_7 SLG] and [http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Gargoyles-7___281643 TFAW]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=838 Chronological adaptation intro]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=839 Chronological adaptation Chapter VII]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Reunion|<< Previous Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Six: "Reunion"]]''' <br />
| '''[[Rock and Roll|Next Episode: "Clan-Building" Chapter Eight: "Rock & Roll" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes|Rock, The]]<br />
[[Category:Comic Book|Rock, The]]<br />
[[Category:Radio Plays|Rock, The]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Three&diff=39482Avalon Part Three2023-11-19T13:56:33Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act Three */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon3.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Three''' is the thirty-sixth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-third episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 22, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Seoul Movie Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
[[Goliath]], [[Angela]], and [[Gabriel]] dash toward the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]] on all fours at a fast clip. Gabriel suddenly stops and stands upright. He's heard something, but Goliath and Angela did not. With no time to waste, Goliath instructs Angela and Gabriel to continue their mission to retrieve the [[Eye of Odin]] and the [[Phoenix Gate]]; he'll stay behind to act as a diversion. [[Demona]] sees Goliath but continues to pursue the two young warriors instead. "[[Jalapeña]]", Goliath mutters, as he realizes the ruse will not work.<br />
<br />
At [[Oberon's Palace]], [[Princess Katharine]] and the [[Magus]] tell [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] what little they know about the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]]. The two are uneasy when Elisa asks them how to get to his [[Hollow Hill]], but she reminds them all that they have no other choice. [[Guardian]] agrees with Elisa and prepares to go there alone, but with a look to the Princess, the Magus insists that he should be the one. Elisa joins the Magus, reminding everyone that it ''was'' her idea.<br />
<br />
Gabriel and Angela arrive at the Grotto, careful to hide behind the brush. The two can see the [[Archmage]] and the [[Weird Sisters]]. A [[Demona's Artillery|particle beam cannon]] butts against Angela's back. The two are soon cornered by Demona and Macbeth (both still entranced) but Goliath steps in just in time to knock Demona's cannon out of Gabriel and Angela's path. Goliath announces that the two young gargoyles are, in fact, the [[Wyvern Clan]]'s children, pleading with Demona that her hatred towards humanity should not extend to gargoyles. He also calls out to Macbeth, reminding him that personal sense of honor would prevent him from attacking innocents. The two begin to start to come out of the spell holding them captive as Goliath tries to make them realize the Archmage is using them. It's at this moment that the Archmage bursts from the [[Phoenix Gate]]'s flames. He applauds Goliath for trying to appeal to their better natures, but it won't work as they are now his creatures to control. Both immortals, human and gargoyle, revert to their trance. The Archmage declares he has "great plans" for Goliath, but orders Demona and Macbeth to dispose of Angela and Gabriel. Before they can, [[Bronx]] and [[Boudicca|one of the Avalon Clan's beasts]] pounce on all three aggressors. Angela jumps in, grabbing the Archmage's skullcap to remove the Eye of Odin from his head, but the magical energies subdue them both. The effort proves unsuccessful, and Gabriel urges Angela to flee. The Archmage is now enraged and changes tactics: "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" and the three vanish in the Phoenix Gate's flames.<br />
<br />
Elsewhere on the island, Elisa tries to keep up with the much-older Magus, who is used to being on his own. Elisa wonders how the Princess and Guardian fit into that sentiment, figuring they were all one big happy family from what she learned from [[Guardian|Tom]]. The Magus agrees that it started off that way; that finally feeling safe the moment they arrived on Avalon, they lived innocent as children. Memories of the Magus making Katharine a lyre and Tom making the Princess a flower necklace surface. As the three grew older, the Magus tells Elisa that Katharine began to rely on Tom more than she once did with the Magus. After [["The Eggs"]] hatched, the two raised the gargoyles as husband-and-wife. Elisa asks the Magus that if he still loved the Princess, why didn't he fight for her? But the Magus long ago concluded that, without the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'', he had nothing to offer her. As they arrive at the Hollow Hill, Elisa wonders then why he stayed all these years. The Magus tells her that he owed it to Goliath to help raise "The Eggs" as a penance for [[Sleep Spell|what he did]] to the surviving gargoyles on the night of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
The two walk up the stone steps to the Hollow Hill, which opens onto a small cave, roughly hewed out and filled with stalactites. Elisa admits to expecting "something grander"; the two continue to walk and finally see the legendary tomb lit by nightlight from above: the Sleeping King on a raised bier surrounded by a great chasm. Niches fill the sides of the Hollow Hill, depicting knights with heraldic emblems above them. A single bridge spanning the chasm to the bier is guarded by two gargoyle-looking statues.<!--Has this detail ever been asked on S8 or at a Gathering?--> The two begin to cross the bridge and empty iron suits of armor begin to magically walk toward them, with their swords ready to strike. Elisa fires her [[Elisa's Guns|pistol]] at the suits of armor, even knocking a helmet off, but it does not stop them. All of a sudden, the Magus magically comes to her aid, reciting: <br />
<br />
:''Armored warriors who would stay''<br />
:''Upon the winds of yesterday''<br />
:''You have discharged your promise bold,''<br />
:''So sleep you now! Grow still! Grow cold!'' <br />
<br />
He collapses on the bridge, drained. Elisa is stunned. She thought the Magus had lost his magic, which he admits he did, centuries ago. "But [[Magic#Avalon Magic|magic]] is the lifeblood of Avalon," he explains, and with his training he can tap that energy at its source, especially inside the Hollow Hill. But, without a conduit to that source, like he once had with the ''Grimorum'', the ability to do so is difficult, and he wonders if he could pull off the feat again. Elisa begins to walk across the bridge a second time, with the Magus still recovering, leaning heavily on his staff. A few steps past the fallen pieces of armor, the bridge suddenly breaks apart in front of Elisa. She asks the Magus what to do and he tells her that a "leap of faith" is required. She steels herself, backs up to get a running start and makes the jump, landing at the center of the Hill. She turns around and sees the bridge intact as it originally was. A low rumbling diverts her attention to the raised bier: the platform is beginning to lower. Elisa walks up to the Sleeping King now resting at her level.<br />
<br />
Elisa simply states, "[[Arthur Pendragon]], King of all [[Britain]]. You are needed."<br />
<br />
Magical energies surround and swirl around King Arthur. He awakens.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Angela commends Bronx and [[Boudicca]] for following and rescuing them. The doors of the hall suddenly open and Arthur Pendragon enters, followed by the Magus and Elisa. Everyone inside is stunned, and Elisa explains to Goliath that despite all the times he encountered Demona and Macbeth, he's never actually defeated them. Goliath agrees, acknowledging that he's only foiled their plans or fought them to a draw. Considering they are two of the greatest warriors of all time, they needed the greatest that ever lived, period. King Arthur finds these sentiments flattering, but asks to anyone that would answer, "What is going on?"<br />
<br />
Back at the Grotto, the Archmage fumes that he's been too complacent. [[Selene]] reports that Demona and Macbeth are on their way to the Palace. While their enthralled soldiers take out the mortals there, the Weird Sisters are to dispatch the Sleeping King. [[Luna]] asks the Archmage what he will do while they do his bidding. He replies that he will eagerly await for Goliath.<br />
<br />
Back at the Palace, Princess Katharine asks King Arthur if he will help them. He tells her that he's been awakened early. He does not have [[Excalibur]], nor his knights of the [[Round Table]], nor [[Merlin]]. Yet he recognizes they are in great need, and agrees to do what he can. Gabriel bursts in to report that Demona and Macbeth have been spotted in the orchard. The Magus is indignant – he knew the Archmage would not wait till dawn. Goliath admits that he might have, if not for his failed attempt to take the Eye and Gate. Arthur reminds everyone that this can work in their favor. With Guardian and Gabriel and Elisa, he will lead them against those advancing toward the Palace. Goliath is prepared to take on the Archmage: "I'm the one he wants," he reasons. Angela insists that she go with Goliath, and he agrees. Arthur asks everyone else to stay in the Palace and protect the wounded. Princess Katharine vows that their foes will not harm her "Eggs" again. That will leave just the Weird Sisters. "Leave them to me," the Magus interjects. <br />
<br />
In the orchard, a single shot from Elisa distracts Demona who fires at the detective and Guardian. Gabriel strikes her in mid-air and she crashes to the ground. The impact of Gabriel's strike also hurts Macbeth. Guardian tries to pin down Demona, but she throws him off, grabbing her firearm once more. Gabriel swoops in again, knocking Demona and hurting Macbeth simultaneously. Macbeth fires his [[Lightning Gun]] at Arthur, who dodges behind an apple tree. "What manner of magic is this?," Arthur comments on the modern weaponry, and Macbeth coldly utters, "It is your death," felling the tree with another shot. Macbeth is ambushed by Arthur as he inspect the fallen tree. The Scottish King asks his opponent who he is, and the newly awakened British King replies, "I am Arthur Pendragon." Even enchanted, Macbeth can't help but jab how he always wondered how he "would stand up against the best". A short distance away, Gabriel is knocked into a tree by Demona, but Elisa manages to kick her down, causing Macbeth to wince. This allows Arthur the chance to pin Macbeth to the ground, and he realizes that their blows effect both their opponents. In order mitigate the impact of these attacks upon [[Demona and Macbeth's Link|link]], she glides off. With Macbeth beginning to free himself from his grip, Arthur instructs the others to stop Demona before she makes it to the Palace. She fires her cannon at Gabriel, hitting his left wing, and Guardian and Elisa are unable to stop her before she is airborne.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus calmly waits for the Weird Sisters, sitting with his legs crossed. [[Phoebe]] taunts the Magus, asking if he chose this site to be his grave. Selene argues that the Magus is no match for the three of them, and Luna plainly comments, "There is no future for you." He swings his staff at the Sisters, who grow incredulous. No piece of wood can harm them, and further, they comment how he has no magic on Avalon. The Magus counters, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Mystical Avalon, hear my plea:''<br />
:''Fill me with your energy!''<br />
<br />
He strikes a stone, gathering magical energy from the island and releases it upon the Weird Sisters, hurting them. Luna accuses the Magus of stealing power from stealing from the land of their "birth" and the three declare in unison that he will suffer, their combined energies striking the Magus.<br />
<br />
Demona glides toward the Palace walls, dodging the arrows fired from the gargoyles of the Avalon Clan still able-bodied enough to fight. She fires her particle beam cannon at the Palace defenders, knocking them off the battlements. Demona lands and hears the snarls of both Bronx and Boudicca coming at her from right and left. She jumps down from the wall and into the castle grounds. She makes her way into the hall where Princess Katharine is tending to the wounded gargoyles. One [[Ophelia|female gargoyle]], still very much injured, attempts to stop her, but Demona just flings her across the hall. Katharine pleads with Demona, trying to remind her that these gargoyles are her children. Demona doesn't break from her spell, but continues to take aim, eyes glowing.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur continue to fight; Arthur knocks Macbeth's gun from his hand, but Macbeth kicks Arthur to the ground, pinning him with a freshly drawn sword.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage manipulates the elements around him.<!--I don't know how else to describe this. Feel free to edit--> He hears Goliath's roar and is ready to trounce him as soon as the gargoyle swoops in.<br />
<br />
Before Demona can fire at the Princess and hurt gargoyles, Gabriel jumps in from a open-air window<!--Is there a better name for this?-->, knocking Demona to the ground. Guardian walks in to shield Katharine. Still enchanted, Demona relishes killing them all together, but Elisa distracts her, firing her last shot at Demona. Demona chooses to face Elisa first, and the two begin to struggle against each other on the ground. Pinning Elisa to the ground, Demona is ready to claw at the human, who is holding the gargoyle back with every ounce of her strength.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage begins the painful death he planned for Goliath, gloating that he's waited a millennium for this. "And it was worth the wait," he adds, with a malicious chuckle.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Elisa and Demona continue to struggle on the ground. Gabriel and Guardian run to Elisa's aid, throwing Demona off Elisa and pinning her to the ground. As the two struggle to hold her down, Demona kicks with her feet, further slashing at Gabriel's already-injured wing. Elisa joins Guardian in his efforts to secure Demona, who threatens to destroy everyone while reaching for her particle beam cannon. Bronx and Boudicca enter the hall, and Boudicca kicks the cannon to Princess Katharine's feet. The Princess has had enough of Demona's threats and takes the firearm, ordering everyone to get clear. Katharine fires at the stone wall above Demona's head, burying the gargoyle in a deluge of rubble, which finally knocks her out. "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" the Princess remarks to the stunned looks of those around her.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus can barely withstand the force of the Weird Sister's combined might. He manages to distract them by diverting some of their energies to destroy a stone behind them. As they look away from him, he then directs some of that same energy back at the Sisters, pushing them over the nearby waters and dropping them in with a splash. They stand in the knee-high water and gather the island's energies once more. "Avalon! Aid your children!" they cry out, storm clouds gathering above the once clear night sky. A gale of wind is directed at the Magus, who is thrown by the force. Mid-air he stabs his staff into the ground and transforms that staff into a full-grown tree to shield him from the elements. Lightning strikes the tree, splitting it into two and setting the wood on the fire. Behind the flames, the Magus races inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters hover over the flames, continuing to pursue their prey.<br />
<br />
In the orchard, King Arthur manages to dodge Macbeth's sword, who strikes a tree instead. He swings his mace at Macbeth, landing a body blow that throws Macbeth several feet. Macbeth gets back on his feet and charges at Arthur. Arthur swings his mace as Macbeth swings his sword and shatters the blade. Arthur then rushes Macbeth, knocking him into a tree with apples raining down on them both from the force of the impact. Arthur takes the broken sword hilt and pins Macbeth to the apple tree before delivering the final knockout punch.<br />
<br />
Inside the Hollow Hill, the Magus struggles to get to the center bier, climbing up onto the platform where Arthur Pendragon once slept. The Weird Sisters are not far behind. Selene is adamant that the old sorcerer only delays the inevitable. Phoebe sees the platform empty and asks where the Sleeping King is. The Magus musters the last of his energy, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Iron armor, swords and riches,''<br />
:''Form a chain to bind these witches!''<br />
<br />
His spell hits the empty suits of armor he and Elisa encountered earlier that night, transforming it into chains that finally traps the Weird Sisters. His body crashes onto the bier, the arm that cast his last attack still outstretched before falling.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage reminds Goliath that he's not the weakling that was defeated in 984. He could destroy Goliath with a word. Riled up with the taunts, Goliath demands to know why the Archmage doesn't just kill him already. The Archmage's reasons are obvious to him – he's having too much fun. Hurting the gargoyle with another magical blow, he doesn't see Angela swoop in to knock him to the ground. The Archmage grabs Angela's head and subjects her to the same magical pains he threw at Goliath. Goliath attacks the Archmage mid-glide and the two roll down the hill to the island's shoreline. Goliath comes to first and attempts to take the Eye of Odin from the Archmage's skullcap. The Archmage grabs Goliath's arm and throws the gargoyle off him into the river waters.<!--Or is it the sea surrounding the island?--> He then traps Goliath underwater, freezing the river. The Archmage takes the time to watch Goliath struggle and sink under the ice, before the gargoyle gains enough momentum to crash through the frozen barrier and attempt the Eye from the Archmage once more. The Archmage activates the Phoenix Gate on his chest, and the two are transported through time and space, popping around the frozen river several times before Goliath flings the Archmage by the head back onto the shore, the Eye of Odin finally in the gargoyle's hand.<br />
<br />
"You lose again, Archmage," Goliath gravely tells him, still face down on the hill. The Archmage comes to, now lacking his skull cap and his beard restored to its original length before he became enhanced from the Eye of Odin. The Archmage calls Goliath a fool, reminding him he still has the Phoenix Gate and that the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is a part of him, forever. But, without the Eye of Odin, the ''Grimorum'' begins burning him up from the inside out. As his body and bones are destroyed in the powerful energies beyond his control, the Archmage cries out in pain and utters his final words, "All my lovely magic . . ."<br />
<br />
Only the Phoenix Gate remains intact from the magical flames. "It is over," Goliath concludes, but he hears Angela gasp from the Grotto. In its waters, she sees the Magus in the Hollow Hill.<br />
<br />
"Oh Magus, what have you done?" Princess Katharine asks the dying Magus. All the heroes that fought off the Archmage and his allies are at his side inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters look on, still in chains. The Magus tries to speak, but Katharine shushes him, telling the Magus they'll get him back to the Palace, with every hope he'll recover. The Magus shakes his head at her, saying "I think I should like to stay here." Goliath steps forward, telling the Magus he owes him a great debt. The Magus raises his head in disbelief: he's the one that cursed Goliath's clan. But Goliath corrects him: the Magus saved his children. The Magus lies back down. He is so tired; he would like to rest. Tearing up, Katharine tells him that he can't leave her now.<br />
<br />
"Never, my Princess."<br />
<br />
Katharine cries over the dead Magus. A shooting star streaks across the opening in the Hollow Hill's domed ceiling.<!--Is there a better way to describe this? Feel free to edit--><br />
<br />
On the shores of Avalon, Gabriel tells Goliath that the rest of the Avalon Clan is already rebuilding the Palace and invites Goliath's clan to join them on Avalon. Goliath turns him down, explaining that his clan must learn to live together with humanity if there is any hope for gargoyles outside of Avalon. Angela then announces that she wants to journey with Goliath back to [[Manhattan]], and he shares with her that while such a decision could be dangerous, she would be "welcome company". Angela is eager to see the [[Earth|world]] and discover her place in it, but before departing she goes to Gabriel. He agrees with her dreams but will nevertheless miss his rookery sister. <br />
<br />
Elisa asks King Arthur what he plans to do and Arthur shares the same desire to explore "this new world", but insists he will travel alone - to appear "a bit less conspicuous", as he claims a [[Skiff|skiff]]. Goliath laughs heartily at the sentiment and invites him to look up the [[Manhattan Clan]] should he arrive on that island. Arthur jumps on the skiff and pushes off into the mists, waving goodbye.<br />
<br />
Goliath turns to the skiff occupied by Demona and Macbeth, still restrained by members of the Avalon Clan. He tells the ensnared Weird Sisters to release his perennial foes. Demona and Macbeth lose consciousness on the skiff as Goliath pushes them off into the mists. Selene explains they'll have no memories of what transpired for several weeks. Phoebe reminds Goliath of what he promised the Sisters if they did as he asked them to and he breaks the iron chains holding them captive. The Weird Sisters disappear in a column of flames, Boudicca and Bronx sniffing at the remaining smoke. <br />
<br />
Bronx hops on to the remaining skiff as Princess Katharine says her thanks to Goliath and goodbyes to Elisa and Angela. Goliath shares his goodbye to Gabriel as he wishes good luck to them all. Bronx and Boudicca share one last moment together before Goliath pushes off from the shore.<br />
<br />
As Goliath takes the skiff's oar, Elisa sees a pouch containing the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate. "Souvenirs?" she teases. Goliath replies that he is personally going to ensure that the remaining two talismans are never used again. Elisa's fine with that. Her only goal is get back to [[New York City|New York]] as soon as possible. Guardian overhears her from the shore and calls out, "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!"<br />
<br />
Elisa grows troubled. "Wait a minute, what does he mean, 'where we need to be'?"<br />
<br />
They disappear in the mists.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] <br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]]<br />
* Apple Orchard<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* Enchanted Suits of Armor<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" - The Archmage<br />
* "There is no future for you." - Luna to the Magus<br />
* "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" - Princess Katharine<br />
* "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!" - Guardian<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
King Arthur is introduced in this episode, although he was mentioned in [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] (as King Arthur) and in "Avalon" Part Two (as the Sleeping King). Arthur states that he was awakened earlier than was intended, a statement reinforced by the [[Stone of Destiny]] and the [[Lady of the Lake]] in [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]. In [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], it is hinted that Arthur was originally supposed to awaken in time for the [[Space-Spawn]] invasion in 2198.<br />
<br />
Both the [[Archmage]] and the [[Magus]] die.<br />
<br />
Of the [[Three Keys to Power]], the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is destroyed in this episode. Goliath takes the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate so that they do not fall into the wrong hands. He will possess the Eye until [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]], and the Gate until [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]. Demona will not learn of their combined fates for another year-and-a-half until [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]].<br />
<br />
Goliath, [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], Angela and [[Bronx]] embark on the [[Avalon World Tour]] in this episode. It will eventually conclude in [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]].<br />
<br />
[[Demona]] and [[Macbeth]] are released from the [[Weird Sisters]]' spell, which they have been under since [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]]. The two of them are sent to the mortal world on a [[skiff]] together, and will next appear in [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]].<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Boudicca]], the [[Avalon Clan]]'s [[gargoyle beast]], is first named in the dialogue here. She shares her name with that of another [[Boudicca#Real_World_Background|historical figure]]. Presumably all that [[Princess Katharine]], the [[Magus]], and [[Tom]] knew of her namesake was that she was a brave warrior-queen; the historical Boudicca's career almost evokes that of Demona, in the sense of fighting back against an oppressor with deeds just as bloodthirsty and brutal as the original wrongs.<br />
<br />
Originally, [[Greg Weisman]] considered having the Magus survive the battle and leave with King Arthur afterwards. He changed his mind when he realized that one of Arthur's activities after leaving [[Avalon]] was to find [[Merlin]], and did not want to wind up having Arthur with two wizards in his following; after rejecting this original fate for the Magus, he quickly developed the idea of having him die in the battle as a sign of the cost of war.<br />
<br />
The flashback scenes accompanying the Magus' story to [[Elisa]] of how Katharine and Tom fell in love have gained much controversy among ''Gargoyles'' fans, for they have been claimed to show Katharine and Tom playing with "toddler" versions of Gabriel, Angela, and Boudicca in the daytime – obviously impossible! In fact, a closer look at this scene shows that it is taking place at night; however, it is immediately preceded by a daytime scene of Katharine and Tom together as the Magus looks sadly on. Perhaps fan memories unwittingly combined the two scenes.<br />
<br />
Incidentally, in the first of these flashbacks (set when Tom is still a small boy), Tom is shown wearing his old peasant boy garments from "Awakening", even though, during the journey to Avalon, he was wearing his Guardian uniform instead. (Maybe he took along a change of clothes?)<br />
<br />
The battle between [[Macbeth]] and King Arthur takes place in an apple orchard – an appropriate piece of topography for Avalon, since its name means "island of apples."<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters are bound by the Magus's chains with their backs to each other and the chains wrapped all of them together. When they explain that Macbeth and Demona won't remember anything from when they were controlled and tell Goliath to keep his part of their bargain, they are seen facing each other inward and have cuffs binding their hands with the glow of the chains beneath them.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
A bit of the battle between Macbeth and King Arthur is cut out.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=183 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep36.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Two|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part Two]]''' <br />
| '''[[Shadows of the Past|Next Episode: "Shadows of the Past" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Three&diff=39481Avalon Part Three2023-11-19T13:47:01Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act Two */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon3.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Three''' is the thirty-sixth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-third episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 22, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Seoul Movie Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
[[Goliath]], [[Angela]], and [[Gabriel]] dash toward the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]] on all fours at a fast clip. Gabriel suddenly stops and stands upright. He's heard something, but Goliath and Angela did not. With no time to waste, Goliath instructs Angela and Gabriel to continue their mission to retrieve the [[Eye of Odin]] and the [[Phoenix Gate]]; he'll stay behind to act as a diversion. [[Demona]] sees Goliath but continues to pursue the two young warriors instead. "[[Jalapeña]]", Goliath mutters, as he realizes the ruse will not work.<br />
<br />
At [[Oberon's Palace]], [[Princess Katharine]] and the [[Magus]] tell [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] what little they know about the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]]. The two are uneasy when Elisa asks them how to get to his [[Hollow Hill]], but she reminds them all that they have no other choice. [[Guardian]] agrees with Elisa and prepares to go there alone, but with a look to the Princess, the Magus insists that he should be the one. Elisa joins the Magus, reminding everyone that it ''was'' her idea.<br />
<br />
Gabriel and Angela arrive at the Grotto, careful to hide behind the brush. The two can see the [[Archmage]] and the [[Weird Sisters]]. A [[Demona's Artillery|particle beam cannon]] butts against Angela's back. The two are soon cornered by Demona and Macbeth (both still entranced) but Goliath steps in just in time to knock Demona's cannon out of Gabriel and Angela's path. Goliath announces that the two young gargoyles are, in fact, the [[Wyvern Clan]]'s children, pleading with Demona that her hatred towards humanity should not extend to gargoyles. He also calls out to Macbeth, reminding him that personal sense of honor would prevent him from attacking innocents. The two begin to start to come out of the spell holding them captive as Goliath tries to make them realize the Archmage is using them. It's at this moment that the Archmage bursts from the [[Phoenix Gate]]'s flames. He applauds Goliath for trying to appeal to their better natures, but it won't work as they are now his creatures to control. Both immortals, human and gargoyle, revert to their trance. The Archmage declares he has "great plans" for Goliath, but orders Demona and Macbeth to dispose of Angela and Gabriel. Before they can, [[Bronx]] and [[Boudicca|one of the Avalon Clan's beasts]] pounce on all three aggressors. Angela jumps in, grabbing the Archmage's skullcap to remove the Eye of Odin from his head, but the magical energies subdue them both. The effort proves unsuccessful, and Gabriel urges Angela to flee. The Archmage is now enraged and changes tactics: "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" and the three vanish in the Phoenix Gate's flames.<br />
<br />
Elsewhere on the island, Elisa tries to keep up with the much-older Magus, who is used to being on his own. Elisa wonders how the Princess and Guardian fit into that sentiment, figuring they were all one big happy family from what she learned from [[Guardian|Tom]]. The Magus agrees that it started off that way; that finally feeling safe the moment they arrived on Avalon, they lived innocent as children. Memories of the Magus making Katharine a lyre and Tom making the Princess a flower necklace surface. As the three grew older, the Magus tells Elisa that Katharine began to rely on Tom more than she once did with the Magus. After [["The Eggs"]] hatched, the two raised the gargoyles as husband-and-wife. Elisa asks the Magus that if he still loved the Princess, why didn't he fight for her? But the Magus long ago concluded that, without the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'', he had nothing to offer her. As they arrive at the Hollow Hill, Elisa wonders then why he stayed all these years. The Magus tells her that he owed it to Goliath to help raise "The Eggs" as a penance for [[Sleep Spell|what he did]] to the surviving gargoyles on the night of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
The two walk up the stone steps to the Hollow Hill, which opens onto a small cave, roughly hewed out and filled with stalactites. Elisa admits to expecting "something grander"; the two continue to walk and finally see the legendary tomb lit by nightlight from above: the Sleeping King on a raised bier surrounded by a great chasm. Niches fill the sides of the Hollow Hill, depicting knights with heraldic emblems above them. A single bridge spanning the chasm to the bier is guarded by two gargoyle-looking statues.<!--Has this detail ever been asked on S8 or at a Gathering?--> The two begin to cross the bridge and empty iron suits of armor begin to magically walk toward them, with their swords ready to strike. Elisa fires her [[Elisa's Guns|pistol]] at the suits of armor, even knocking a helmet off, but it does not stop them. All of a sudden, the Magus magically comes to her aid, reciting: <br />
<br />
:''Armored warriors who would stay''<br />
:''Upon the winds of yesterday''<br />
:''You have discharged your promise bold,''<br />
:''So sleep you now! Grow still! Grow cold!'' <br />
<br />
He collapses on the bridge, drained. Elisa is stunned. She thought the Magus had lost his magic, which he admits he did, centuries ago. "But [[Magic#Avalon Magic|magic]] is the lifeblood of Avalon," he explains, and with his training he can tap that energy at its source, especially inside the Hollow Hill. But, without a conduit to that source, like he once had with the ''Grimorum'', the ability to do so is difficult, and he wonders if he could pull off the feat again. Elisa begins to walk across the bridge a second time, with the Magus still recovering, leaning heavily on his staff. A few steps past the fallen pieces of armor, the bridge suddenly breaks apart in front of Elisa. She asks the Magus what to do and he tells her that a "leap of faith" is required. She steels herself, backs up to get a running start and makes the jump, landing at the center of the Hill. She turns around and sees the bridge intact as it originally was. A low rumbling diverts her attention to the raised bier: the platform is beginning to lower. Elisa walks up to the Sleeping King now resting at her level.<br />
<br />
Elisa simply states, "[[Arthur Pendragon]], King of all [[Britain]]. You are needed."<br />
<br />
Magical energies surround and swirl around King Arthur. He awakens.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Angela commends Bronx and [[Boudicca]] for following and rescuing them. The doors of the hall suddenly open and Arthur Pendragon enters, followed by the Magus and Elisa. Everyone inside is stunned, and Elisa explains to Goliath that despite all the times he encountered Demona and Macbeth, he's never actually defeated them. Goliath agrees, acknowledging that he's only foiled their plans or fought them to a draw. Considering they are two of the greatest warriors of all time, they needed the greatest that ever lived, period. King Arthur finds these sentiments flattering, but asks to anyone that would answer, "What is going on?"<br />
<br />
Back at the Grotto, the Archmage fumes that he's been too complacent. [[Selene]] reports that Demona and Macbeth are on their way to the Palace. While their enthralled soldiers take out the mortals there, the Weird Sisters are to dispatch the Sleeping King. [[Luna]] asks the Archmage what he will do while they do his bidding. He replies that he will eagerly await for Goliath.<br />
<br />
Back at the Palace, Princess Katharine asks King Arthur if he will help them. He tells her that he's been awakened early. He does not have [[Excalibur]], nor his knights of the [[Round Table]], nor [[Merlin]]. Yet he recognizes they are in great need, and agrees to do what he can. Gabriel bursts in to report that Demona and Macbeth have been spotted in the orchard. The Magus is indignant – he knew the Archmage would not wait till dawn. Goliath admits that he might have, if not for his failed attempt to take the Eye and Gate. Arthur reminds everyone that this can work in their favor. With Guardian and Gabriel and Elisa, he will lead them against those advancing toward the Palace. Goliath is prepared to take on the Archmage: "I'm the one he wants," he reasons. Angela insists that she go with Goliath, and he agrees. Arthur asks everyone else to stay in the Palace and protect the wounded. Princess Katharine vows that their foes will not harm her "Eggs" again. That will leave just the Weird Sisters. "Leave them to me," the Magus interjects. <br />
<br />
In the orchard, a single shot from Elisa distracts Demona who fires at the detective and Guardian. Gabriel strikes her in mid-air and she crashes to the ground. The impact of Gabriel's strike also hurts Macbeth. Guardian tries to pin down Demona, but she throws him off, grabbing her firearm once more. Gabriel swoops in again, knocking Demona and hurting Macbeth simultaneously. Macbeth fires his [[Lightning Gun]] at Arthur, who dodges behind an apple tree. "What manner of magic is this?," Arthur comments on the modern weaponry, and Macbeth coldly utters, "It is your death," felling the tree with another shot. Macbeth is ambushed by Arthur as he inspect the fallen tree. The Scottish King asks his opponent who he is, and the newly awakened British King replies, "I am Arthur Pendragon." Even enchanted, Macbeth can't help but jab how he always wondered how he "would stand up against the best". A short distance away, Gabriel is knocked into a tree by Demona, but Elisa manages to kick her down, causing Macbeth to wince. This allows Arthur the chance to pin Macbeth to the ground, and he realizes that their blows effect both their opponents. In order mitigate the impact of these attacks upon [[Demona and Macbeth's Link|link]], she glides off. With Macbeth beginning to free himself from his grip, Arthur instructs the others to stop Demona before she makes it to the Palace. She fires her cannon at Gabriel, hitting his left wing, and Guardian and Elisa are unable to stop her before she is airborne.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus calmly waits for the Weird Sisters, sitting with his legs crossed. [[Phoebe]] taunts the Magus, asking if he chose this site to be his grave. Selene argues that the Magus is no match for the three of them, and Luna plainly comments, "There is no future for you." He swings his staff at the Sisters, who grow incredulous. No piece of wood can harm them, and further, they comment how he has no magic on Avalon. The Magus counters, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Mystical Avalon, hear my plea:''<br />
:''Fill me with your energy!''<br />
<br />
He strikes a stone, gathering magical energy from the island and releases it upon the Weird Sisters, hurting them. Luna accuses the Magus of stealing power from stealing from the land of their "birth" and the three declare in unison that he will suffer, their combined energies striking the Magus.<br />
<br />
Demona glides toward the Palace walls, dodging the arrows fired from the gargoyles of the Avalon Clan still able-bodied enough to fight. She fires her particle beam cannon at the Palace defenders, knocking them off the battlements. Demona lands and hears the snarls of both Bronx and Boudicca coming at her from right and left. She jumps down from the wall and into the castle grounds. She makes her way into the hall where Princess Katharine is tending to the wounded gargoyles. One [[Ophelia|female gargoyle]], still very much injured, attempts to stop her, but Demona just flings her across the hall. Katharine pleads with Demona, trying to remind her that these gargoyles are her children. Demona doesn't break from her spell, but continues to take aim, eyes glowing.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur continue to fight; Arthur knocks Macbeth's gun from his hand, but Macbeth kicks Arthur to the ground, pinning him with a freshly drawn sword.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage manipulates the elements around him.<!--I don't know how else to describe this. Feel free to edit--> He hears Goliath's roar and is ready to trounce him as soon as the gargoyle swoops in.<br />
<br />
Before Demona can fire at the Princess and hurt gargoyles, Gabriel jumps in from a open-air window<!--Is there a better name for this?-->, knocking Demona to the ground. Guardian walks in to shield Katharine. Still enchanted, Demona relishes killing them all together, but Elisa distracts her, firing her last shot at Demona. Demona chooses to face Elisa first, and the two begin to struggle against each other on the ground. Pinning Elisa to the ground, Demona is ready to claw at the human, who is holding the gargoyle back with every ounce of her strength.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage begins the painful death he planned for Goliath, gloating that he's waited a millennium for this. "And it was worth the wait," he adds, with a malicious chuckle.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Elisa and Demona continue to struggle on the ground. Gabriel and Guardian run to Elisa's aid, throwing Demona off Elisa and pinning her to the ground. As the two struggle to hold her down, Demona kicks with her feet, further slashing at Gabriel's already-injured wing. Elisa joins Guardian in his efforts to secure Demona, who is threatens to destroy everyone while reaching for her particle beam cannon. Bronx and Boudicca enter the hall, and Boudicca kicks the cannon to Princess Katharine's feet. The Princess has had enough of Demona's threats and takes the firearm, ordering everyone to get clear. Katharine fires at the stone wall above Demona's head, burying the gargoyle in a deluge of rubble, which finally knocks her out. "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" the Princess remarks to the stunned looks of those around her.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus can barely withstand the agony of the Weird Sister's combined might. He manages to distract them by diverting some of their energies to destroy a stone behind them. As they look away from him, he then directs some of that same energy back at the Sisters, pushing them over the nearby waters and dropping them in with a splash. They stand in the knee-high water and gather the island's energies once more. "Avalon! Aid your children!" they cry out, storm clouds gathering above the once clear night sky. A gale of wind is directed at the Magus, who is thrown from the force. Mid-air he stabs his staff into the ground and transforms that staff into a full grown tree to shield him from the elements. Lightning strikes the tree, splitting it into two and setting the wood on the fire. Behind the flames, the Magus races inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters hover over the flames, continuing to pursue their prey.<br />
<br />
In the orchard, King Arthur manages to dodge Macbeth's sword, who strikes a tree instead. He swings his mace at Macbeth, landing a body blow that throws Macbeth several feet. Macbeth gets back on his feet and charges at Arthur. Arthur swings his mace as Macbeth swings his sword and shatters the blade. Arthur then rushes Macbeth, knocking him into a tree with apples raining down on them both from the force of the impact. Arthur takes the broken sword hilt and pins Macbeth to the apple tree before delivering the final knockout punch.<br />
<br />
Inside the Hollow Hill, the Magus struggles to get to the center bier, climbing up onto the platform where Arthur Pendragon once slept. The Weird Sisters are not far behind. Selene is adamant that the old sorcerer only delays the inevitable. Phoebe sees the platform empty and asks where the Sleeping King is. The Magus musters the last of his energy, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Iron armor, swords and riches,''<br />
:''Form a chain to bind these witches!''<br />
<br />
His spell hits the empty suits of armor he and Elisa encountered earlier that night, transforming it into chains that finally traps the Weird Sisters. His body crashes onto the bier; the arm that cast his last attack still outstretched before falling.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage reminds Goliath that he's not the weakling that was defeated in 984. He could destroy Goliath with a word. Riled up with the taunts, Goliath demands to know why doesn't the Archmage just kill him already. The Archmage's reasons are obvious to him – he's having too much fun. Hurting the gargoyle with another magical blow, he doesn't see Angela swoop in to knock him to the ground. The Archmage grabs Angela's head and subjects her to the same magical pains he threw at Goliath. Goliath attacks the Archmage mid-glide and the two roll down the hill to the island's shoreline. Goliath comes to first and attempts to take the Eye of Odin from the Archmage's skullcap. The Archmage grabs Goliath's arm and throws the gargoyle off him into the river waters.<!--Or is it the sea surrounding the island?--> He then traps Goliath underwater, freezing the river. The Archmage takes the time to watch Goliath struggle and sink under the ice, before the gargoyle gains enough momentum to crash through the frozen barrier and attempt the Eye from the Archmage once more. The Archmage activates the Phoenix Gate on his chest, and the two are transported through time and space, popping around the frozen river several times before Goliath flings the Archmage by the head back onto the shore, the Eye of Odin finally in the gargoyle's hand.<br />
<br />
"You lose again, Archmage," Goliath gravely tells him, still face down on the hill. The Archmage comes to, now lacking his skull cap and his beard restored to the length before he became enhanced from the Eye of Odin. The Archmage calls Goliath a fool, remind him he still has the Phoenix Gate and that the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is a part of him, forever. But, without the Eye of Odin, the ''Grimorum'' begins burning him up from the inside out. As his body and bones are destroyed in the powerful energies beyond his control, the Archmage cries out in pain and utters his final words, "All my lovely magic . . ."<br />
<br />
Only the Phoenix Gate remains intact from the magical flames. "It is over," Goliath concludes, but he hears Angela gasp from the Grotto. In its waters, she sees the Magus in the Hollow Hill.<br />
<br />
"Oh Magus, what have you done?" Princess Katharine asks the dying Magus. All the heroes that fought off the Archmage and his allies are at his side inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters look on, still in chains. The Magus tries to speak, but Katharine shushes him, telling the Magus they'll get him back to the Palace, with every hope he'll recover. The Magus shakes his head at her, "I think I should like to stay here." Goliath steps forward, telling the Magus he owes him a great debt. The Magus raises his head up in disbelief: he's the one that cursed Goliath's clan. But Goliath corrects him: the Magus saved his children. The Magus lies back down. He is so tired; he would like to rest. Tearing up, Katharine tells him that he can't leave her now.<br />
<br />
"Never, my Princess."<br />
<br />
Katharine cries over the dead Magus. A shooting star streaks across the Hollow Hill's canopy opening.<!--Is there a better way to describe this? Feel free to edit--><br />
<br />
On the shores of Avalon, Gabriel tells Goliath that the rest of the Avalon Clan is already rebuilding the Palace and invites Goliath's clan to join them on Avalon. Goliath turns him down, explaining that his clan must learn to live together with humanity if there is any hope for gargoyles outside of Avalon. Angela then shares that she wants to journey with Goliath back to [[Manhattan]], and he shares with her that while such a decision could be dangerous, she would be "welcome company". Angela is eager to see the [[Earth|world]] and her place in it, but before departing she goes to Gabriel. He agrees with her dreams but will miss nevertheless miss his rookery sister. <br />
<br />
Elisa asks King Arthur what he plans to do and Arthur shares the same desire to explore "this new world", but insists he will travel alone. If only to appear "a bit less conspicuous" he insists, claiming a [[Skiff|skiff]] for himself. Goliath laughs heartily at the sentiment and invites him to look up the [[Manhattan Clan]] should he arrive on that island. He jumps on the skiff and pushes off into the mists, waving goodbye.<br />
<br />
Goliath turns to the skiff boarded by Demona and Macbeth, still restrained by members of the Avalon Clan. He tells the ensnared Weird Sisters to release his perennial foes. The Demona and Macbeth lose consciousness on the skiff as Goliath pushes them off into the mists. Selene explains they'll have no memories of what transpired for several weeks. Phoebe reminds Goliath of what he promised the Sisters if they did as he asked them to and he breaks the iron chains holding them captive. The Weird Sisters disappear in a column of flames, Boudicca and Bronx sniffing at the remaining smoke. <br />
<br />
Bronx hops on to the remaining skiff as Princess Katharine says her thanks to Goliath and goodbyes to Elisa and Angela. Goliath shares his goodbye to Gabriel as he wishes good luck to them all. Bronx and Boudicca share one last moment together before Goliath pushes off from the shore.<br />
<br />
As Goliath takes the skiff's oar, Elisa sees a pouch containing the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate. "Souvenirs?" she teases. Goliath is personally going to insure that the remaining two talismans are never used again. Elisa's fine with that. Her only goal is get back to [[New York City|New York]] as soon as possible. Guardian overhears her from the shore and calls out, "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!"<br />
<br />
Elisa grows troubled. "Wait a minute, what does he mean, 'where we need to be'?"<br />
<br />
They disappear in the mists.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] <br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]]<br />
* Apple Orchard<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* Enchanted Suits of Armor<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" - The Archmage<br />
* "There is no future for you." - Luna to the Magus<br />
* "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" - Princess Katharine<br />
* "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!" - Guardian<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
King Arthur is introduced in this episode, although he was mentioned in [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] (as King Arthur) and in "Avalon" Part Two (as the Sleeping King). Arthur states that he was awakened earlier than was intended, a statement reinforced by the [[Stone of Destiny]] and the [[Lady of the Lake]] in [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]. In [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], it is hinted that Arthur was originally supposed to awaken in time for the [[Space-Spawn]] invasion in 2198.<br />
<br />
Both the [[Archmage]] and the [[Magus]] die.<br />
<br />
Of the [[Three Keys to Power]], the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is destroyed in this episode. Goliath takes the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate so that they do not fall into the wrong hands. He will possess the Eye until [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]], and the Gate until [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]. Demona will not learn of their combined fates for another year-and-a-half until [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]].<br />
<br />
Goliath, [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], Angela and [[Bronx]] embark on the [[Avalon World Tour]] in this episode. It will eventually conclude in [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]].<br />
<br />
[[Demona]] and [[Macbeth]] are released from the [[Weird Sisters]]' spell, which they have been under since [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]]. The two of them are sent to the mortal world on a [[skiff]] together, and will next appear in [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]].<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Boudicca]], the [[Avalon Clan]]'s [[gargoyle beast]], is first named in the dialogue here. She shares her name with that of another [[Boudicca#Real_World_Background|historical figure]]. Presumably all that [[Princess Katharine]], the [[Magus]], and [[Tom]] knew of her namesake was that she was a brave warrior-queen; the historical Boudicca's career almost evokes that of Demona, in the sense of fighting back against an oppressor with deeds just as bloodthirsty and brutal as the original wrongs.<br />
<br />
Originally, [[Greg Weisman]] considered having the Magus survive the battle and leave with King Arthur afterwards. He changed his mind when he realized that one of Arthur's activities after leaving [[Avalon]] was to find [[Merlin]], and did not want to wind up having Arthur with two wizards in his following; after rejecting this original fate for the Magus, he quickly developed the idea of having him die in the battle as a sign of the cost of war.<br />
<br />
The flashback scenes accompanying the Magus' story to [[Elisa]] of how Katharine and Tom fell in love have gained much controversy among ''Gargoyles'' fans, for they have been claimed to show Katharine and Tom playing with "toddler" versions of Gabriel, Angela, and Boudicca in the daytime – obviously impossible! In fact, a closer look at this scene shows that it is taking place at night; however, it is immediately preceded by a daytime scene of Katharine and Tom together as the Magus looks sadly on. Perhaps fan memories unwittingly combined the two scenes.<br />
<br />
Incidentally, in the first of these flashbacks (set when Tom is still a small boy), Tom is shown wearing his old peasant boy garments from "Awakening", even though, during the journey to Avalon, he was wearing his Guardian uniform instead. (Maybe he took along a change of clothes?)<br />
<br />
The battle between [[Macbeth]] and King Arthur takes place in an apple orchard – an appropriate piece of topography for Avalon, since its name means "island of apples."<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters are bound by the Magus's chains with their backs to each other and the chains wrapped all of them together. When they explain that Macbeth and Demona won't remember anything from when they were controlled and tell Goliath to keep his part of their bargain, they are seen facing each other inward and have cuffs binding their hands with the glow of the chains beneath them.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
A bit of the battle between Macbeth and King Arthur is cut out.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=183 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep36.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Two|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part Two]]''' <br />
| '''[[Shadows of the Past|Next Episode: "Shadows of the Past" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Three&diff=39480Avalon Part Three2023-11-19T13:25:45Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act One */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon3.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Three''' is the thirty-sixth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-third episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 22, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Seoul Movie Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
[[Goliath]], [[Angela]], and [[Gabriel]] dash toward the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]] on all fours at a fast clip. Gabriel suddenly stops and stands upright. He's heard something, but Goliath and Angela did not. With no time to waste, Goliath instructs Angela and Gabriel to continue their mission to retrieve the [[Eye of Odin]] and the [[Phoenix Gate]]; he'll stay behind to act as a diversion. [[Demona]] sees Goliath but continues to pursue the two young warriors instead. "[[Jalapeña]]", Goliath mutters, as he realizes the ruse will not work.<br />
<br />
At [[Oberon's Palace]], [[Princess Katharine]] and the [[Magus]] tell [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]] what little they know about the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]]. The two are uneasy when Elisa asks them how to get to his [[Hollow Hill]], but she reminds them all that they have no other choice. [[Guardian]] agrees with Elisa and prepares to go there alone, but with a look to the Princess, the Magus insists that he should be the one. Elisa joins the Magus, reminding everyone that it ''was'' her idea.<br />
<br />
Gabriel and Angela arrive at the Grotto, careful to hide behind the brush. The two can see the [[Archmage]] and the [[Weird Sisters]]. A [[Demona's Artillery|particle beam cannon]] butts against Angela's back. The two are soon cornered by Demona and Macbeth (both still entranced) but Goliath steps in just in time to knock Demona's cannon out of Gabriel and Angela's path. Goliath announces that the two young gargoyles are, in fact, the [[Wyvern Clan]]'s children, pleading with Demona that her hatred towards humanity should not extend to gargoyles. He also calls out to Macbeth, reminding him that personal sense of honor would prevent him from attacking innocents. The two begin to start to come out of the spell holding them captive as Goliath tries to make them realize the Archmage is using them. It's at this moment that the Archmage bursts from the [[Phoenix Gate]]'s flames. He applauds Goliath for trying to appeal to their better natures, but it won't work as they are now his creatures to control. Both immortals, human and gargoyle, revert to their trance. The Archmage declares he has "great plans" for Goliath, but orders Demona and Macbeth to dispose of Angela and Gabriel. Before they can, [[Bronx]] and [[Boudicca|one of the Avalon Clan's beasts]] pounce on all three aggressors. Angela jumps in, grabbing the Archmage's skullcap to remove the Eye of Odin from his head, but the magical energies subdue them both. The effort proves unsuccessful, and Gabriel urges Angela to flee. The Archmage is now enraged and changes tactics: "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" and the three vanish in the Phoenix Gate's flames.<br />
<br />
Elsewhere on the island, Elisa tries to keep up with the much-older Magus, who is used to being on his own. Elisa wonders how the Princess and Guardian fit into that sentiment, figuring they were all one big happy family from what she learned from [[Guardian|Tom]]. The Magus agrees that it started off that way; that finally feeling safe the moment they arrived on Avalon, they lived innocent as children. Memories of the Magus making Katharine a lyre and Tom making the Princess a flower necklace surface. As the three grew older, the Magus tells Elisa that Katharine began to rely on Tom more than she once did with the Magus. After [["The Eggs"]] hatched, the two raised the gargoyles as husband-and-wife. Elisa asks the Magus that if he still loved the Princess, why didn't he fight for her? But the Magus long ago concluded that, without the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'', he had nothing to offer her. As they arrive at the Hollow Hill, Elisa wonders then why he stayed all these years. The Magus tells her that he owed it to Goliath to help raise "The Eggs" as a penance for [[Sleep Spell|what he did]] to the surviving gargoyles on the night of the [[Wyvern Massacre]].<br />
<br />
The two walk up the stone steps to the Hollow Hill, which opens onto a small cave, roughly hewed out and filled with stalactites. Elisa admits to expecting "something grander"; the two continue to walk and finally see the legendary tomb lit by nightlight from above: the Sleeping King on a raised bier surrounded by a great chasm. Niches fill the sides of the Hollow Hill, depicting knights with heraldic emblems above them. A single bridge spanning the chasm to the bier is guarded by two gargoyle-looking statues.<!--Has this detail ever been asked on S8 or at a Gathering?--> The two begin to cross the bridge and empty iron suits of armor begin to magically walk toward them, with their swords ready to strike. Elisa fires her [[Elisa's Guns|pistol]] at the suits of armor, even knocking a helmet off, but it does not stop them. All of a sudden, the Magus magically comes to her aid, reciting: <br />
<br />
:''Armored warriors who would stay''<br />
:''Upon the winds of yesterday''<br />
:''You have discharged your promise bold,''<br />
:''So sleep you now! Grow still! Grow cold!'' <br />
<br />
He collapses on the bridge, drained. Elisa is stunned. She thought the Magus had lost his magic, which he admits he did, centuries ago. "But [[Magic#Avalon Magic|magic]] is the lifeblood of Avalon," he explains, and with his training he can tap that energy at its source, especially inside the Hollow Hill. But, without a conduit to that source, like he once had with the ''Grimorum'', the ability to do so is difficult, and he wonders if he could pull off the feat again. Elisa begins to walk across the bridge a second time, with the Magus still recovering, leaning heavily on his staff. A few steps past the fallen pieces of armor, the bridge suddenly breaks apart in front of Elisa. She asks the Magus what to do and he tells her that a "leap of faith" is required. She steels herself, backs up to get a running start and makes the jump, landing at the center of the Hill. She turns around and sees the bridge intact as it originally was. A low rumbling diverts her attention to the raised bier: the platform is beginning to lower. Elisa walks up to the Sleeping King now resting at her level.<br />
<br />
Elisa simply states, "[[Arthur Pendragon]], King of all [[Britain]]. You are needed."<br />
<br />
Magical energies surround and swirl around King Arthur. He awakens.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Angela commends Bronx and [[Boudicca]] for following them and rescuing them. The doors of the hall suddenly open and Arthur Pendragon enters, followed by the Magus and Elisa. Everyone inside is stunned, and Elisa explains to Goliath that despite all the times he encountered Demona and Macbeth, he's never actually defeated them. Goliath agrees, acknowledging that he's only foiled their plans or fought them to a draw. Considering they are two of the greatest warriors of all time, they needed the greatest that ever lived, period. King Arthur finds these sentiments flattering, but asks to anyone that would answer, "What is going on?"<br />
<br />
Back at the Grotto, the Archmage fumes that he's been too complacent. [[Selene]] reports that Demona and Macbeth are on their way to the Palace. While their enthralled-soldiers take out the mortals there, he orders the Weird Sisters to dispatch the Sleeping King. [[Luna]] asks the Archmage what he will do while they do his bidding. He will eagerly await for Goliath.<br />
<br />
Back at the Palace, Princess Katharine asks King Arthur if he will help them, but he concludes that he's been awakened early. He has no [[Excalibur]], nor his knights of the [[Round Table]], nor [[Merlin]]. He recognizes they are in great need, and agrees to do what he can. Gabriel soon bursts in to report that Demona and Macbeth have been spotted in the orchard. The Magus is indignant – he knew the Archmage would not wait till dawn. Goliath admits that he might have, if not for his failed attempt to take the Eye and Gate. Arthur reminds everyone that this can work in their favor. With Guardian and Gabriel and Elisa, he will lead them against those advancing toward the Palace. Goliath is prepared to take on the Archmage: "I'm the one he wants," he reasons. Angela insists she go with Goliath, and he agrees. Arthur asks for everyone else to stay in the Palace and protect the wounded. Princess Katharine vows that their foes will not harm her "Eggs" again. That will leave just the Weird Sisters. "Leave them to me," the Magus interjects. <br />
<br />
In the orchard, a single shot from Elisa distracts Demona who fires at the detective and Guardian. Gabriel strikes her in mid-air and she crashes to the ground. The impact of Gabriel's strike also hurts Macbeth. Guardian tries to pin down Demona, but she throws him off, grabbing her firearm once more. Gabriel swoops in once more, knocking Demona and hurting Macbeth simultaneously. Macbeth fires his [[Lightning Gun]] at Arthur, who dodges behind an apple tree. "What manner of magic is this?," Arthur comments on the modern weaponry, and Macbeth coldly utters, "It is your death," chopping the tree to its trunk with another fire. Macbeth is ambushed by Arthur as he inspect the fallen tree. The Scottish King asks his opponent who he is, and the newly awakened King replies, "I am Arthur Pendragon." Even enchanted, Macbeth can't help but jab how he always wondered how he "would stand up against the best". A short distance away, Gabriel is knocked into a tree by Demona, but Elisa manages to kick her down, causing Macbeth to wince. This allows Arthur the chance to pin Macbeth to the ground, and he realizes that their blows effect both their opponents. In order mitigate the impact of their [[Demona and Macbeth's Link|link]], she glides off. With Macbeth beginning to free himself from his grip, Arthur instructs the others to stop Demona before she makes it to the Palace. She fires her cannon at Gabriel, hitting his left wing and Guardian and Elisa are unable to stop her before she is airborne.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus calmly waits for the Weird Sisters, sitting with his legs crossed. [[Phoebe]] taunts the Magus, asking if he chose this site to be his grave. Selene argues that the Magus is no match for the three of them, and Luna plainly comments, "There is no future for you." He swings his staff at the Sisters, who grow incredulous. No piece of wood can harm them, and further, they comment how he has no magic on Avalon. The Magus counters, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Mystical Avalon, hear my plea:''<br />
:''Fill me with your energy!''<br />
<br />
He strikes a stone, gathering magical energy from the island and releases it on the Weird Sisters, hurting them. Luna accuses the Magus of stealing power from stealing from the land of their "birth" and the three declare in unison that he will suffer, their combined energies striking the Magus.<br />
<br />
Demona glides toward the Palace walls, dodging the arrows fired from the gargoyles of the Avalon Clan still able-bodied to fight. She fires her particle beam cannon at the Palace defenders, knocking them off the battlements. Demona lands and hears the snarls of both Bronx and Boudicca coming at her from right and left. She jumps down from the wall and into the castle grounds. She makes her way into the hall where Princess Katharine is tending to the wounded gargoyles. One [[Ophelia|female gargoyle]], still very much injured, attempts to stop her, but Demona just flings her across the hall. Katharine pleads with Demona, trying to remind her that these gargoyles are her children. Demona doesn't break from her spell, but continues to take aim, eye glowing.<br />
<br />
Macbeth and Arthur continue to fight, with Arthur knocking Macbeth's gun from his hand, but Macbeth kicking Arthur to the ground, pinning him with a freshly drawn sword.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage manipulates the elements around him.<!--I don't know how else to describe this. Feel free to edit--> He hears Goliath's roar and is ready to trounce him and soon as the gargoyle swoops in.<br />
<br />
Before Demona can fire at the Princess and hurt gargoyles, Gabriel jumps in from a open-air window<!--Is there a better name for this?-->, knocking Demona to the ground. Guardian walks in to shield Katharine. Still enchanted, Demona relishes killing them all together, but Elisa distracts her, firing her last shot at Demona. Demona chooses to face Elisa first, and the two begin to struggle against each other on the ground. Pinning Elisa to the ground, Demona is ready to claw at the human, who is holding the gargoyle back with every ounce of her strength.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage begins the painful death he planned for Goliath, gloating that he's waited a millennium for this. "And it was worth the wait," he provokes, with a malicious chuckle. <br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
At Oberon's Palace, Elisa and Demona continue to struggle on the ground. Gabriel and Guardian run to Elisa's aid, throwing Demona off Elisa and pinning her to the ground. As the two struggle to hold her down, Demona kicks with her feet, further slashing at Gabriel's already-injured wing. Elisa joins Guardian in his efforts to secure Demona, who is threatens to destroy everyone while reaching for her particle beam cannon. Bronx and Boudicca enter the hall, and Boudicca kicks the cannon to Princess Katharine's feet. The Princess has had enough of Demona's threats and takes the firearm, ordering everyone to get clear. Katharine fires at the stone wall above Demona's head, burying the gargoyle in a deluge of rubble, which finally knocks her out. "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" the Princess remarks to the stunned looks of those around her.<br />
<br />
Outside the Hollow Hill, the Magus can barely withstand the agony of the Weird Sister's combined might. He manages to distract them by diverting some of their energies to destroy a stone behind them. As they look away from him, he then directs some of that same energy back at the Sisters, pushing them over the nearby waters and dropping them in with a splash. They stand in the knee-high water and gather the island's energies once more. "Avalon! Aid your children!" they cry out, storm clouds gathering above the once clear night sky. A gale of wind is directed at the Magus, who is thrown from the force. Mid-air he stabs his staff into the ground and transforms that staff into a full grown tree to shield him from the elements. Lightning strikes the tree, splitting it into two and setting the wood on the fire. Behind the flames, the Magus races inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters hover over the flames, continuing to pursue their prey.<br />
<br />
In the orchard, King Arthur manages to dodge Macbeth's sword, who strikes a tree instead. He swings his mace at Macbeth, landing a body blow that throws Macbeth several feet. Macbeth gets back on his feet and charges at Arthur. Arthur swings his mace as Macbeth swings his sword and shatters the blade. Arthur then rushes Macbeth, knocking him into a tree with apples raining down on them both from the force of the impact. Arthur takes the broken sword hilt and pins Macbeth to the apple tree before delivering the final knockout punch.<br />
<br />
Inside the Hollow Hill, the Magus struggles to get to the center bier, climbing up onto the platform where Arthur Pendragon once slept. The Weird Sisters are not far behind. Selene is adamant that the old sorcerer only delays the inevitable. Phoebe sees the platform empty and asks where the Sleeping King is. The Magus musters the last of his energy, reciting:<br />
<br />
:''Iron armor, swords and riches,''<br />
:''Form a chain to bind these witches!''<br />
<br />
His spell hits the empty suits of armor he and Elisa encountered earlier that night, transforming it into chains that finally traps the Weird Sisters. His body crashes onto the bier; the arm that cast his last attack still outstretched before falling.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, the Archmage reminds Goliath that he's not the weakling that was defeated in 984. He could destroy Goliath with a word. Riled up with the taunts, Goliath demands to know why doesn't the Archmage just kill him already. The Archmage's reasons are obvious to him – he's having too much fun. Hurting the gargoyle with another magical blow, he doesn't see Angela swoop in to knock him to the ground. The Archmage grabs Angela's head and subjects her to the same magical pains he threw at Goliath. Goliath attacks the Archmage mid-glide and the two roll down the hill to the island's shoreline. Goliath comes to first and attempts to take the Eye of Odin from the Archmage's skullcap. The Archmage grabs Goliath's arm and throws the gargoyle off him into the river waters.<!--Or is it the sea surrounding the island?--> He then traps Goliath underwater, freezing the river. The Archmage takes the time to watch Goliath struggle and sink under the ice, before the gargoyle gains enough momentum to crash through the frozen barrier and attempt the Eye from the Archmage once more. The Archmage activates the Phoenix Gate on his chest, and the two are transported through time and space, popping around the frozen river several times before Goliath flings the Archmage by the head back onto the shore, the Eye of Odin finally in the gargoyle's hand.<br />
<br />
"You lose again, Archmage," Goliath gravely tells him, still face down on the hill. The Archmage comes to, now lacking his skull cap and his beard restored to the length before he became enhanced from the Eye of Odin. The Archmage calls Goliath a fool, remind him he still has the Phoenix Gate and that the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is a part of him, forever. But, without the Eye of Odin, the ''Grimorum'' begins burning him up from the inside out. As his body and bones are destroyed in the powerful energies beyond his control, the Archmage cries out in pain and utters his final words, "All my lovely magic . . ."<br />
<br />
Only the Phoenix Gate remains intact from the magical flames. "It is over," Goliath concludes, but he hears Angela gasp from the Grotto. In its waters, she sees the Magus in the Hollow Hill.<br />
<br />
"Oh Magus, what have you done?" Princess Katharine asks the dying Magus. All the heroes that fought off the Archmage and his allies are at his side inside the Hollow Hill. The Weird Sisters look on, still in chains. The Magus tries to speak, but Katharine shushes him, telling the Magus they'll get him back to the Palace, with every hope he'll recover. The Magus shakes his head at her, "I think I should like to stay here." Goliath steps forward, telling the Magus he owes him a great debt. The Magus raises his head up in disbelief: he's the one that cursed Goliath's clan. But Goliath corrects him: the Magus saved his children. The Magus lies back down. He is so tired; he would like to rest. Tearing up, Katharine tells him that he can't leave her now.<br />
<br />
"Never, my Princess."<br />
<br />
Katharine cries over the dead Magus. A shooting star streaks across the Hollow Hill's canopy opening.<!--Is there a better way to describe this? Feel free to edit--><br />
<br />
On the shores of Avalon, Gabriel tells Goliath that the rest of the Avalon Clan is already rebuilding the Palace and invites Goliath's clan to join them on Avalon. Goliath turns him down, explaining that his clan must learn to live together with humanity if there is any hope for gargoyles outside of Avalon. Angela then shares that she wants to journey with Goliath back to [[Manhattan]], and he shares with her that while such a decision could be dangerous, she would be "welcome company". Angela is eager to see the [[Earth|world]] and her place in it, but before departing she goes to Gabriel. He agrees with her dreams but will miss nevertheless miss his rookery sister. <br />
<br />
Elisa asks King Arthur what he plans to do and Arthur shares the same desire to explore "this new world", but insists he will travel alone. If only to appear "a bit less conspicuous" he insists, claiming a [[Skiff|skiff]] for himself. Goliath laughs heartily at the sentiment and invites him to look up the [[Manhattan Clan]] should he arrive on that island. He jumps on the skiff and pushes off into the mists, waving goodbye.<br />
<br />
Goliath turns to the skiff boarded by Demona and Macbeth, still restrained by members of the Avalon Clan. He tells the ensnared Weird Sisters to release his perennial foes. The Demona and Macbeth lose consciousness on the skiff as Goliath pushes them off into the mists. Selene explains they'll have no memories of what transpired for several weeks. Phoebe reminds Goliath of what he promised the Sisters if they did as he asked them to and he breaks the iron chains holding them captive. The Weird Sisters disappear in a column of flames, Boudicca and Bronx sniffing at the remaining smoke. <br />
<br />
Bronx hops on to the remaining skiff as Princess Katharine says her thanks to Goliath and goodbyes to Elisa and Angela. Goliath shares his goodbye to Gabriel as he wishes good luck to them all. Bronx and Boudicca share one last moment together before Goliath pushes off from the shore.<br />
<br />
As Goliath takes the skiff's oar, Elisa sees a pouch containing the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate. "Souvenirs?" she teases. Goliath is personally going to insure that the remaining two talismans are never used again. Elisa's fine with that. Her only goal is get back to [[New York City|New York]] as soon as possible. Guardian overhears her from the shore and calls out, "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!"<br />
<br />
Elisa grows troubled. "Wait a minute, what does he mean, 'where we need to be'?"<br />
<br />
They disappear in the mists.<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] <br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]]<br />
* Apple Orchard<br />
<br />
===Object===<br />
* Enchanted Suits of Armor<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "I generously allowed them to live until dawn, but if they are so eager to die––!" - The Archmage<br />
* "There is no future for you." - Luna to the Magus<br />
* "No one threatens my 'Eggs'!" - Princess Katharine<br />
* "Elisa, I thought you understood: Avalon does not take you where you WANT to go. Avalon SENDS you where you need to be!" - Guardian<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
King Arthur is introduced in this episode, although he was mentioned in [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] (as King Arthur) and in "Avalon" Part Two (as the Sleeping King). Arthur states that he was awakened earlier than was intended, a statement reinforced by the [[Stone of Destiny]] and the [[Lady of the Lake]] in [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]. In [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]], it is hinted that Arthur was originally supposed to awaken in time for the [[Space-Spawn]] invasion in 2198.<br />
<br />
Both the [[Archmage]] and the [[Magus]] die.<br />
<br />
Of the [[Three Keys to Power]], the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'' is destroyed in this episode. Goliath takes the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate so that they do not fall into the wrong hands. He will possess the Eye until [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]], and the Gate until [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]. Demona will not learn of their combined fates for another year-and-a-half until [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]].<br />
<br />
Goliath, [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], Angela and [[Bronx]] embark on the [[Avalon World Tour]] in this episode. It will eventually conclude in [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]].<br />
<br />
[[Demona]] and [[Macbeth]] are released from the [[Weird Sisters]]' spell, which they have been under since [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]]. The two of them are sent to the mortal world on a [[skiff]] together, and will next appear in [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]].<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
[[Boudicca]], the [[Avalon Clan]]'s [[gargoyle beast]], is first named in the dialogue here. She shares her name with that of another [[Boudicca#Real_World_Background|historical figure]]. Presumably all that [[Princess Katharine]], the [[Magus]], and [[Tom]] knew of her namesake was that she was a brave warrior-queen; the historical Boudicca's career almost evokes that of Demona, in the sense of fighting back against an oppressor with deeds just as bloodthirsty and brutal as the original wrongs.<br />
<br />
Originally, [[Greg Weisman]] considered having the Magus survive the battle and leave with King Arthur afterwards. He changed his mind when he realized that one of Arthur's activities after leaving [[Avalon]] was to find [[Merlin]], and did not want to wind up having Arthur with two wizards in his following; after rejecting this original fate for the Magus, he quickly developed the idea of having him die in the battle as a sign of the cost of war.<br />
<br />
The flashback scenes accompanying the Magus' story to [[Elisa]] of how Katharine and Tom fell in love have gained much controversy among ''Gargoyles'' fans, for they have been claimed to show Katharine and Tom playing with "toddler" versions of Gabriel, Angela, and Boudicca in the daytime – obviously impossible! In fact, a closer look at this scene shows that it is taking place at night; however, it is immediately preceded by a daytime scene of Katharine and Tom together as the Magus looks sadly on. Perhaps fan memories unwittingly combined the two scenes.<br />
<br />
Incidentally, in the first of these flashbacks (set when Tom is still a small boy), Tom is shown wearing his old peasant boy garments from "Awakening", even though, during the journey to Avalon, he was wearing his Guardian uniform instead. (Maybe he took along a change of clothes?)<br />
<br />
The battle between [[Macbeth]] and King Arthur takes place in an apple orchard – an appropriate piece of topography for Avalon, since its name means "island of apples."<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters are bound by the Magus's chains with their backs to each other and the chains wrapped all of them together. When they explain that Macbeth and Demona won't remember anything from when they were controlled and tell Goliath to keep his part of their bargain, they are seen facing each other inward and have cuffs binding their hands with the glow of the chains beneath them.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
A bit of the battle between Macbeth and King Arthur is cut out.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=183 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep36.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Two|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part Two]]''' <br />
| '''[[Shadows of the Past|Next Episode: "Shadows of the Past" >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=GargWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=39475GargWiki talk:Community Portal2023-11-19T00:06:09Z<p>Merlyn: /* Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki */</p>
<hr />
<div>Since someone suggested it earlier, I decided to go ahead and open up the community portal for general discussions/suggestions for the whole of GargWiki. Enjoy! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 17:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Yay! Thank you Moeen. Now I have a place to make a suggestion: Does the side and border of the website have to be bright white? I like the dark blue of the rest of the site, it is easier on the eyes, but the white is hard on the eyes. Maybe it could be some other color, such as light blue? I know this is minor but little aesthetic things impact a website's overall viewing experience. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:06, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:You're welcome. :-) As for the background, I think in order to change it you have to edit the default skin used by the wiki, which is not something I know how to do, but I'm sure it can be done. Speaking of knowing how to do things, the link to [[:Help:Contents|Help]] on the sidebar links to a page that doesn't even exist! It would be nice if you could actually get help from the help page. Maybe some of the people running this place can put something there? Surely there's a MediaWiki manual for this site? Also, we could put up some general guidelines for writing articles on the GargWiki in the help section or on a related page. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:20, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Yes! A very good idea. And filling out the Help page would also be good. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:49, 9 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Italics==<br />
Got another question. I've gone through the wiki and italicized all capitalized references to ''Gargoyles'' the television show and ''Gargoyles'' the property. Should references to Gargoyles the comic book also be italicized? Right now the wiki is inconsistent, but I have seen ''Gargoyles: Bad Guys'' italicized. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:21, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Just my opinion, but I do think the title of both the television series and the comic book series (as opposed to the titles of episodes/issues) should be consistently italicized - gdw<br />
<br />
:I've been using Wikipedia conventions (which I always fall back on in cases of confusion), which basically say television series, plays, films, comic book series, etc are all italicized. Episode titles are not italicized, but they are put in inverted commas "". On GargWiki we tend to use both italics and quotation marks for episode citations, but I think that's a special case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::So I went through and changed all the ones I could find. But here's a question. We're italicizing the names of episodes and comic issues in this Wiki. Should we also italicize the parenthises? The current state seems slightly inconsistent. My personal preference is to leave the parenthises non-italicized, but my main interest is to standardize the formatting throughout the Wiki. What format should we set? We could do it like this: ''("[[Monsters]]")'' or like this: (''"[[Monsters]]"''). -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:29, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::Are we italicizing the episodes and comic issues? I'm not sure that's consistent on the wiki either. But my opinion of it is that it is the citation that is italicized, not the episode. So I prefer italicizing the parenthises too, but that's just my preference. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 17:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Creating new pages==<br />
OK, I'm still a bit new to wiki-ing, so I'm not familiar with all the procedure. I'd like to add a new page for the Disney Adventures comic "A Study In Stone" (which would be counted in Apocrypha, of course, but I don't knw how to make a new page, or even if I can, not being a mod. Help? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14 September 2007<br />
<br />
:You absolutely can! Anyone can create a page, and you can do it in one of two ways.<br />
:'''The first way:''' if you edit a page to include a link to your required article (in this case by adding the text <nowiki>[[A Study In Stone]]</nowiki>) it will produce a red (broken) link. Note that, when you edit a page to make a link like this, you can just use the preview button and you don't even need a to save. Next, you click on the red link (as if it was a non-broken, regular link), and it will take you to that page's "edit page". From there you can edit the page as if it already existed, and when you save it'll be right there.<br />
:'''The second way:''' you type in the title you want in the search bar to the left of the screen and push "Go". It will tell you that "No page with <font color="red">this exact title</font> exists". If you click on the red link on the words "this exact title", it will send you to the edit page of the page you want.<br />
:If you want to practice first, try creating your own user page by clicking on the link to [[User:Demonskrye]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Much thanks! The article for [[A Study in Stone]] is now up and viewable in the [[:Category:Apocrypha|Aprocrypha category]]. We can move it into one of the sub-categories, but until "Apocrypha Epsiodes" becomes something like "Apocrypha Storylines", I don't think there's an appropriate one for it. Also, I'd suggest that we put the info for making a new page into the now empty "Help" section.<br />
<br />
A similar question. I've now done a couple of articles for the Disney Adventures comics, so I think we could use a "Disney Adevntures" subcategory in [[:Category:Apocrypha]]. I checked over on MediaWiki, but I'm still confused about how a subcategory is made. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 17 September 2007<br />
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:Those pages look pretty good. Creating a category is just like creating a page, except that you need to include the "Category:" prefix (note the colon). So either add the category to a page and use the red link, or type "Category:Whatever" into the search bar and hit "go", then proceed as before. For a subcategory, you just need to categorize the category. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Help==<br />
Since there's nothing in the help section, at some point I'll copy the help pages from MediaWiki here. In the meantime, you can find all the help you need [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents here]. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Google rankings==<br />
On 19 September 2007 (about 7 pm GMT), a search for 'Gargoyles' on Google turns up GargWiki at number 92 (the Gargoyles page on Wikiquote is 93). 'Gargoyles+Disney' is even worse at 132, and even then the link is to Category:Apocrypha (there's another link to the Episode Guide at 145). 'Gargoyles+TV' has a link to Grimorum at 18, but GargWiki doesn't appear until 75 (Talk:Main Page).<br />
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Obviously, this is not a great situation to be in. Wikia has a few suggestions to improve the rankings [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Toughpigs/10_steps_to_raise_your_wiki%27s_Google_ranking here]. Section 2 is particularly interesting. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:24, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:So perhaps our rankings would be better if the name of the main page was something like "GargWiki - The Disney's Gargoyles Wiki" rather than the way we have it now, which Google may not get? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 19 September 2007<br />
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::I don't feel that Google rankings are as important as other might think, and our priority should be to improve the content here as best we can. But regardless, whatever you do '''''don't spam or vandalize other sites with links to GargWiki'''''. It is precisely [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/G._Bishansky this] kind of behavior (see [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=2669 here] for a more specific example) that got us blocked from Wikipedia, and probably other sites as well. If that happens, we'll be down even ''lower'' than we are now with the rankings. So please keep that in mind. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::That's true. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I never meant to even imply that spamming other sites was in any way a good thing. Cos it's not. Seriously.<br />
:::But changing the name of the Main Page might not be a bad idea, as long as we can do it without causing too much disruption. "GargWiki - The Gargoyles Wiki" is probably enough, or just "Gargoyles Wiki" as inour logo. But it might make the page look odd. I notice that the Main Pages on Wikipedia and Wikia sites don't have titles, as other pages do. Is there some way we could do that here? If not... maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:12, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Community Portal upgrade==<br />
I'm thinking of moving this page to [[GargWiki talk:Community Portal]], and turning [[GargWiki:Community Portal]] into an actual project page. I mean a proper "Welcome to the Community Portal, and here's what we got going on" sort of project page. We could have links to all the ongoing discussions throughout the wiki, which would be useful, and I'm also thinking of having a "Requested pages" section, where users can (basically) request a page. Thoughts? Comments? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:54, 8 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:Sounds like a good idea. This site really does need a page introducing new users or potential users to how things work around here. Plus we really need some guidelines, and given that there doesn't seem to exist any anywhere on this site, this would be good place to set some up.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 14:43, 11 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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::[[GargWiki:Policy]] has some behavioural guidelines, if that's what you mean. Is that what you meant? But anyway, since this could be a complicated reorganisation I'll start writing up a draft of the new page before I start doing anything. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:28, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:::I've written up a page - not quite everything I had originally intended, but it's a good start and we can always expand it later. I'll make the switch-over now. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:12, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
:::Done. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:20, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
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==A history lesson==<br />
Does anyone here know how GargWiki came to be made? When was it started, and who by, and what prompted its creation? I'm just asking because it would be nice to get a little background (not necessarily a lot) to flesh out the page [[GargWiki:About]]. I know that it must have been created on or shortly before 26 July 2006, because that's the first edit I can find and it's also when [[User:Jeb]], [[User:Greg Bishansky]] and [[User:Trio]] were made administrators. If anyone does know, feel free to answer either here or at [[GargWiki talk:About]]... or just add the information to the page. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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== Upgrading the Wiki ==<br />
<br />
Looking into Matt's suggestion for an Appearances section, I've noticed that this wiki lacks some of the functionality of other wikis because it's out of date. In particular, the version of MediaWiki used here is 1.5.1, whereas the latest version is 1.11.0. Granted we usually don't use the full functionality of the wiki, but it's still useful to stay up to date. Not being a system admin, I can't update the wiki myself, but it would be nice if whoever is the system admin is would do so.<br />
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As far as using Wikipedia's referencing system, to install it follow the installation instructions [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation here]. It's only two steps, but requires accessing the system, something I can't do, but a system admin would be able to do.<br />
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P.S. Happy New Years to everyone! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 03:00, 1 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:I commented on this at [[Talk:Appearences Section]], but I'll repeat myself here: you can search for admins by using [[Special:Listusers]], but the ones that are most likely to be able to help you are Greg B, Matt, or Jeb.<br />
:Happy New Year to you too. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:34, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Sounds like you guys know more about the Wikipedia software than I do. You'll have to talk to Jeb or Greg B. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 15:36, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Alright, thanks. I'll inform Jeb and Greg B. on their talk pages and see it they can do something about it.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:44, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Ten years later, I now have access to the server. I haven't upgraded the wiki yet, but I will as soon as I am convinced I know what I'm doing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 2 March 2018 (PST)<br />
:Judging by the lack of dark colors, I'm guessing things are happening, here. Call me patient and excited to see what's in store :) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:22, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
::Still being worked on. We need to get the skins back in place, and there are other glitches to fix, but the wiki has been upgraded. Notice that the buttons are back. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:23, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
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== Speculation ==<br />
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Poking around the wiki, I think that there are a few too many places where personal speculation makes its way into the articles. Now there's speculation that I think is OK and speculation that I think doesn't belong here. Speculation that I think is OK is speculation that's based on established real world or Gargoyles universe fact. For example, since we know that gargoyle children generally receive physical characteristics from both parents, often favoring the appearance of the same gender parent and the coloration of the opposite gender parent, it would be fair to speculated that children of know gargoyle couples will probably resemble both of their parents, possibly even in that pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Artus will definitely look like a lavender Broadway, but the suggestion that he might have some of Broadway's physical features and Angela's coloring would be OK. If we didn't know that Elisa was going to be dead by 2198, I would consider it fair to say that she probably would be, given that she would be 230 years old by that time, which is well beyond human life expectancy as we currently know it. Short of major scientific breakthroughs or magical intervention, it would be safe to say that Elisa would probably not be around in roughly two centuries. I think Greg Weisman speculation is also fair game. greg has suggested, but never outright confirmed, that Zafiro and the gargoyle beasts may both have vestigial limbs, Zafiro due to appearing to be four limbed and the beasts as an evolutionary leftover from their common ancestor with gargoyles. I feel no problem with putting that in as canon-in-training as a possibility rather than a certainty until we either have Greg say it's not so (leading to it being deleted) or see someone take x-rays a Zafiro and/or the beasts (leading to it becoming canon). What I'm not OK with is speculation that is based more on guesses or predictions of character's behavior. I took a section out of Zafiro's article that suggested that his hair coloration and facial features could be presumed to be fairly common among the Mayan clan. We don't have any way of knowing that. We apparently know from Greg as canon-in-training that Zafiro's snake-like body structure is very common, despite the fact that he is the only current member of the clan to have it. But for all we know, he could be the only gargoyle in the Mayan clan with white hair and a serpentine face. Similarly, I think there's too much assumption about future hatchlings and their knowledge of their biological parentage. It is OK to assume that Nashville will have a closer relationship with Brooklyn and Katana for a while at least because they will be the only adult gargoyles he spends the majority of his time with. But once Brooklyn and family return to Manhattan, who knows? He may become particularly close to Angela or Broadway or Lex as well. And we have no evidence that Brooklyn and Katana will teach him to put importance on biological parentage. Yes, when he starts asking questions, he'll probably either be aware that Brook and Katana are his biological parents. But if they place no importance on that, if they tell him "We are two of your parents and we love you, but you have other parents and other family out there and some day you will get to see them and they will be just as much your family", it won't matter so much to him that the rest of the clan isn't related to him by blood. Same deal with Angela. It's more tempting to assume that she'll put more emphasis on biology because she is so interested in her own parentage. But things could change. When Nashville arrives and she actually sees the rest of the clan start to parent him, she may start to feel differently about what communal parenting really means. I think it's highly likely that she might tell her kids that she's their biological mother before they necessarily ask (though it's still not something I would assume). But I just don't think we can assume how she'll be raising kids who have yet to be conceived.<br />
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Thoughts? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:47, 7 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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== Apocrypha ==<br />
At the head of any CIT article is a banner making it clear that's all it is. Shouldn't we have something similar for Apocrypha. To be clear, I think it's 100% appropriate for there to be articles here on, say, Dr. Phobos or Judge Bates, but shouldn't we have a (red?) flag of some kind at the top? -- gdw<br />
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:This problem has been raised at [[Talk:Angels in the Night]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:26, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::I'm glad this has come up again since the recent appearances of many of these apocrypha pages has beenn irking me. I like the idea a lot of a red flag banner at the top of such pages. I want this site to be about all things Gargoyles, including the non-canon stuff, but I think there needs to be a well seen line between the canon and the not canon, and that line is nearly invisible on pages like [[Dr. Phobos]] and [[Judge Bates]]. Frankly, I don't even like the apocyrpha sections on pages like [[Brooklyn]]. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:59, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::If you do this, I think you should only provide the banners for in-universe apocryphal articles, and not the out-of-universe articles (issues, episodes, the video-game, etc.). -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:59, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::Actually, [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]], I was thinking this was something you'd be better at then myself. I have no idea how to create a banner. And I think we would all trust your skills and judgement. I don't mean to seem like I'm assigning you this though, but if you want to do it at some point, that'd be cool. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:45, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::::To be honest, this is way down at the bottom of "things I plan to do". Way down. Since I'm not entirely settled on the idea anyway, I probably won't get round to it for a long while.<br />
:::::But making a banner isn't so hard. Have a look at the source code at [[Template:CIT article]], then just change the details a bit. You don't need to know what it all does (I don't), but you can figure out enough to get by. The text is easy to change, but you can also change the background (as long as you know the hex code of the colour you want) and other things. Then it's just a matter of tweaking until it looks the way you want it to. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:04, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::::I've created a [[Template:Apocrypha article]] and implemented it on some TGC character pages. It's not quite a banner, but let me know what you think. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 06:49, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I love it. Great job man! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I'm a little bit concerned that some people might not see it because it's so small and so far over to the right. But otherwise, I think it works quite well. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 09:37, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I've increased the width and the font size a small amount, so hopefully it should be a bit more noticeable. Better? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:48, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:::Yes. I hadn't realized that the banner hang out at the right edge of the window, regardless of size, so I withdraw my concern about it being too far to the right. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:31, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== Joining GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
Okay, we ''really'' need a mechanism set up by which new users can join GargWiki. If we're still concerned about spamming, then we should get a system that is completely disconnected: something like the Ask Greg comment room, but just for this... Or we could actually redirect users to the Ask Greg comment room. Get them to say 'I have registered as such-and-such, please allow me to edit GargWiki'. Or something. Would this be possible? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 07:13, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Could someone please attend to Antiyonder's request for editing powers? (I still feel like going through Station Eight is a pretty awkward way to go about this.) -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:36, 6 September 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:[[User:Dbdude01]] posted earlier today in the S8 Comment Room for editing privileges . . . from the Recent Changes page, looks like he registered on August 10th --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:20, 18 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
::Got it. Thanks, Pheon. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:29, 21 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
:::No prob, it's nice to see you around these parts as well man :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:19, 21 August 2015 (PDT) <br />
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== Family tree ==<br />
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Behold! A day and a half of my life wasted: [[User:Supermorff/Tree]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:That is very cool Great job, Supermorff. Hey, are you going to the Gathering this year? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:06, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Nice job! Do you think we could put it in an article with a text version that would allow people to easily get to the articles for all these individuals? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I had wanted to use the same templates as they use at Wikipedia (have a look, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Normandy#Family_tree), in which each box can contain arbitrary wiki markup (including links), but our current version of the MediaWiki software doesn't seem to support that. We could do another version with links, but plotting family trees in text alone is difficult and looks a bit rubbish if it's not done well. Might be worth a try though.<br />
::As for the Gathering, alas I will not be able to make it. My last year of university is wrapping up, and I have suspicions that two flights acros the Atlantic would not help me with revision. I could be wrong. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:29, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Another Character Page Idea==<br />
So, I'd say the Appearences sections on the character pages have been great and have really added to the information on this site. So, in response to the success of that section, I have another idea. Notable Quotes. Just take 1-5 quotes from a character and put them on the page if we want to. I was thinking making a new section called Notable Quotes and adding them there. I wouldn't want more than five or so, least it get cluttered. Another idea is putting a quote at the top of the character's page, but I feel that there is too much going on up there already. So, what do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:31, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Hmm. Maybe. I am skeptical. Couldn't we just link to [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles the ''Gargoyles'' page at Wikiquote]? On the Main Page maybe? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:21, 8 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==MediaWiki software update==<br />
Has there been any progress on updating the MediaWiki software that this site uses? I tried adding the possibility of collapsible tables. It didn't seem too complicated when I read how to do it, but it hasn't worked anyway, at least not as expected. I assume it's just not compatible with the version we've got. The current stable version of MediaWiki is 1.12, and we're still running 1.5. Time for an upgrade? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== image requests ==<br />
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:''Moved from [[GargWiki:Community Portal#Requested images]]''<br />
Hi, guys. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be fulfilling these image requests soon now that I have plenty of time on my hands. I hope to have them done by the weekend. Take care! [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 12:20, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
:Thanks DTaina! You rock!!! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Hey, guys. DT here. If you know of any articles that have low quality pics (such as VCR screenshots or logos), or if you just want more pics, don't hesitate to let me know so I can get to work. [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 17:25, 9 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Just a thought==<br />
So, I'm thinking of creating a [[Misconceptions and urban legends about Gargoyles]] page. Mostly as an answer to a lot of really wacky theories I've seen out there. Some, like ''"Gargoyles was originally an anime," "Disney hates Gargoyles and conspired to kill it," "Space-Spawn look like gargoyles," "The Gathering of the Gargoyles is always in Montreal," "Goliath embraced the human way in Mark of the Panther," "Lexington can't be gay because he went after Angela,"'' and so on and so forth. Thoughts? Suggestions? -{{unsigned|Greg Bishansky}}<br />
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:I like the page so far and the concept in general. I think we just need to figure out places we could link to it from so it's not just sitting there all by its lonesome. Possibilities include the Gargoyles TV series page and places in character or episode articles that mention these misconceptions. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14:38, 6 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Owen/Puck==<br />
Okay, so far, we've merged all alternate identities for characters into single entries. Molly and Banshee are now merged. Jon and John are now merged, etc. What do we do about Owen and Puck? I asked Greg his thoughts and even he thinks that one is not so clear cut. ''"It's a judgement call. I'd tend to combine them under a Puck/Owen Burnett entry with both the Puck and the Owen Burnett entries redirecting. But I think you should discuss it with the gwiki crew. Get a consensus."'' So, thoughts? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:I think it can go either way. I see no problem with having them in separate entries, but if you guys want to change it, then that's fine by me. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 17:55, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:It's a tough call. It would make sense to do the merge of aliases and alternate forms across the board. But the Puck/Owen thing just feels a little different. Aliases are fairly simple: you just pick the name that the character either had first or uses most frequently. "Dominique Destine" is just Demona's human alias. "Talon" is the name Derek Maza adopted after he was mutated, but his family still calls him "Derek." Alternate forms for one of Oberon's children are a little more difficult, but it seems that there's usually a primary identity we can all agree on, like with Banshee. And speaking of Banshee, her disguise was revealed in the same episode where she was introduced. The fact that Owen is Puck, of course, wasn't revealed until near the end of season two. And Puck is more dedicated to playing his role than any other fey we've seen with the possible exception of Titania (and even in that case, there isn't the marked difference in personality between Titania and Anastasia that there is between Owen and Puck). Owen almost is a separate person because Puck is committed to making him one. So should Owen retain a separate entry? And on a more practical note, would we be looking at an unusually long article if we merged the two or just less repetition? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 20:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I definitely think they should not be merged. As [[User:Demonskrye]] said, they are two totally different entities. I think it's fine as is.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:53, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
Also, I'm not too crazy about merging [[Titania]] and Anastasia Renard. It feels too confusing to me for appearances sections and so on...what about episodes like [[Walkabout]] where Anastasia appears but not Titania. Just my two cents.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I suppose if we are going to be consistent be have to merge them together. I mean with Talon/Derek, Jon/John the merger seems fairly easy and obvious and not very problematic. They are, afterall, the same person using alias'. With Oberon's Children, I wonder... PGFish makes a good point about appearances section issues. I dunno. The more I think about it, the tougher it seems. ultimately though, I feel we should be consistent. Puck and Owen are the same entity. Puck and Owen can't exist at the same time anymore than Derek and Talon can. So, I suppose I'd go for merging them. As for the Appearances Sections, I suppose we need to be consistent there as well and list all the episodes where either Puck or Owen (or any other alias' used by that entity) have appeared. It may be confusing, but simply remember that we are following the person, not the form of the person. Puck is always Puck, even when he is pretending to be Owen. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:47, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Yes, but Puck isn't Puck when he's Owen. It's not simply an alias, but a seperate entity. When Owen is around, Puck doesn't exist.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 01:01, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:This is exactly the reason I have by-and-large been against merging aliases and alternate identities, because I knew this was where it was heading. I firmly believe that Puck and Owen should have separate pages.<br />
:Before I get down to my personal opinions, here are a few logistical facts:<br />
:1. The naming issue. You can't very well call the merged page "Owen Burnett", since Owen is an identity created by Puck. You can't call it "Puck" because Puck has appeared in just 4 episodes, compared to Owen's 30+. You also can't call the page "Puck/Owen" or similar, because this will create a subpage of "Puck", which is a redirect and it will wreak havoc with the MediaWiki software. So where do you stick a page like this?<br />
:2. Do we intend to merge the various sections as well? Will we merge the Appearances sections? If so, are we going to list appearances (As Puck) or (As Owen), which we've avoided in other cases? Will we just keep two separate Appearances sections? Will we merge the History sections, and mention "As Owen", or "As Puck" every other paragraphs? What's the point?<br />
:Now for my personal opinions: We don't ''gain'' anything by merging the two articles, except a heaping pile of confusion for new visitors. If I wanted to look for specific information on Puck, I would not look in Owen's article, so I fail to see the benefit in forcing me to look through a combined article for both characters. And yes, I do believe that they are separate characters, not just because they have different appearances, voice actors and personalities. They also have very different spheres of influence in the ''Gargoyles'' universe - spheres which only overlap at young Alex.<br />
:Something to consider when comparing this to other examples: The once-separate identities of Anastasia and Titania have now mostly been combined. Does anyone expect that Anastasia will ever appear again, with no mention of Titania? And yet Owen continues to appear without mention that he is Puck. I wouldn't (in all honesty) be surprised if Puck appeared without mention that he was Owen. So those two situations are not really comparable.<br />
:Also, whereas Anastasia and Titania were written (and cast) with the knowledge that it would be revealed that they were the same person. It wasn't until "The Mirror" was already written that the writers realised that Owen and Puck were the same person. In all the other cases that we've merged, there has never really been any doubt that the two characters/names/identities were always supposed to be "the same". With Owen and Puck, they were initially different and later combined (obviously it made perfect sense and worked beautifully, but that's not the point).<br />
:My final thought: Consistency, which is all fine and dandy, is a secondary consideration to making the best, clearest and most helpful encyclopedia that we can. We don't need to minimize the number of articles we've got, and this isn't Wikipedia in which we'd need to merge all similar characters just so they're notable enough to be mentioned at all. Merging in ''this'' case is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:On a separate-but-related note, the Owen article is woefully short. More than half of the History section is actually about Puck, which could well be causing some of the confusion. We should expand the history section - give specific examples of Owen doing his job (keeping Elisa out in "The Edge", pulling a gun in "Enter Macbeth", taking the swab in "Double Jeopardy", summoning the commandoes in "Masque" and "Bash"). Some parts of the Characteristics section (such as his turning to stone by Demona, and his gaining a stone hand) should be mentioned in the History section in their proper context. We should mention that he's good at judo. We should add the anecdote about Owen being written with some unknown secret in his backstory, and then say how Greg and several other writers ''realized'', simultaneously and separately, that Owen and Puck were the same person. We should re-word the opening paragraph, so that Owen seems to be a character in his own right and not just some alias used by Puck, because he's more than that, and we should treat him as such. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::Okay, after reading what Supermorff had to say, I want to change my vote. I think Owen and Puck should remain seperate. I think I know how to work this all out. I think alias' should be merged so Dominique Destine should be with Demona, John Castaway and Jon Canmore should be the same page, Talon and Derek, etc. These are the exact same person using different names and perhaps looking or acting different, but they are not new people. Meanwhile, alternate identities should remain seperate because they are two different people. <br />
::So, alias' merge, alternate identities remain seperate. What do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:23, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:::I agree with Supermorff 100%, too. You guys have my vote! [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:29, 13 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Young character pictures ==<br />
<br />
Recently a lot of pictures have been added of younger versions of several characters. These picures look great, and thanks both to GregW for suggesting the idea and DTaina for doing the hard work and providing them all! However, I would like to suggest that some of them be re-labelled to include either the age of the character or the year being depicted. So [[Princess Katharine]] is the best way of doing it (by the way, we need a young one of her too), but many others are less clear (I'm not sure why, but [[Bodhe]] seems like a particularly bad offender to me). Anyone agree? Disagree? Like pancakes? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:30, 16 January 2009 (CST)<br />
:Makes sense to me.--[[User:Gweisman|Gweisman]] 01:42, 17 January 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==A Scottish Family Tree==<br />
So, I unfortunately lack the photoshop skills, but I want to make a Family Tree of the Scottish royal family for the wiki. From [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] all the way down to [[Luach]] and [[Canmore]]. Anyone up for it? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 23:01, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:I was just pondering that this afternoon, actually. I'd suggest using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Familytree The end result then supports hyperlinks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_family#Family_tree I can do it, but not until after the Gathering. I'd have to import additional templates too. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 23:16, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::This has already been done! [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] has already made one [[User:Supermorff/Tree|here]]. It could perhaps use some updating given the new information, however. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 16:12, 15 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::I'm willing to update this and format it into a [[Scottish Royalty]] page or something, if Supermorff doesn't mind. But I'll need the original code. The family trees I've found are image files. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 22:53, 30 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::::When I started doing this (a very ''very'' ling time ago), I wanted to create the Familytree template here. However, I think we have out-of-date MediaWiki software on this site, so all I could do was produce the sourcecode and copy the picture from another wiki. The sourcecode is all listed on that page Matt linked to, but it won't work here. If you could make it work, I'd love to see it on its own page! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:31, 25 December 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==Things of a more... "adult" nature==<br />
So, thanks to Blue Mug-A-Guests at various Gatherings, and occasional tidbits at Ask Greg, I'm wondering, do we stick any of this into the GargWiki? We always said we'd be all encompassing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:15, 13 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Can we provide sources for it? Stuff at AskGreg is fair game, but I'm hesitant to add things directly from Blue Mug-a-Guests unless someone posted about it at AskGreg, thus giving Greg a chance to correct or whatever.<br />
:It being of adult nature doesn't bother me at all. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:10, 14 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Well, I started with a tiny one in Demona's entry, just to see how well it goes over. Maybe if it's not too awkward, we can add more where appropriate. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:59, 26 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And here's some bits from the Blue Mug, not sure where to put them in the entries, but I thought we'd keep them here for info. A bit of it is off. Greg never said Lex and Staghart would have sex, for example. And Jackal and Hyena are NOT having incestuous sex; they'll share someone, but Jackal isn't weird enough for Hyena. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 08:27, 10 July 2014 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:BM1.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM2.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM3.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
<br />
==Weapons==<br />
So, DTaina had a great idea about putting together entries for weapons. Kinda like what we did for [[Exo-Frame]]. Still trying to think of how we'd do it. Obviously, particle beams need an entry. Demona's various big fucking guns could get an entry. I'd love it to be [[Demona's Big Fucking Guns]] but I won't fight for it ;) --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:40, 20 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==New Screenshots==<br />
You may have noticed some screenshots getting replaced by higher quality PNG files. Well, recently DTaina and I downloaded the latter half of season two in German. The quality of the video and picture is beautiful. DVD quality even. Much better than the ToonDisney and Jetix versions we've been using. So, for characters that popped up in episodes not on DVD, we'll be replacing their images with high quality PNG files. This will be a timely process, I think. But worth it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 14:49, 16 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Already noticing the improvement! Nice work! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:45, 17 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Images ==<br />
<br />
I see lots of [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|unused images]] on the database. May I delete them, or do you guys prefer to stow images for later use? Also, I'd like to categorize images using a simple template I usually customize for each wiki in which I'm most active. Upon community approval, this would also be dependent of us having parser function work. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 07:06, 14 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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:You just linked to the uncategorised files. Unused files are [[Special:UnusedFiles|here]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 00:28, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::Doh. That's what I meant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 02:13, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Criteria for "Non-Canon" Art by Canon Artists==<br />
Since this issue just hit the fan, maybe it's time we really discussed this, and came up with official rules. I think a MAIN PIC needs to show the character off as best we can. If Greg Guler or Frank Paur were releasing art of characters, I'd be all for including them also. In other words, I want those pics up, so let's revise these rules. Here is what I'm thinking:<br />
<br />
Unofficial art by official artists is welcome on GargWiki. Encouraged even. But there should be certain criteria. Depicting a canon character is perfect. Depicting a non-canon scene is not allowed. For example, we have two main pics from Karine Charlebois. One depicting Katana and one depicting the Redemption Squad. Both are terrific and fit the proposed criteria perfectly. However, art of, let's say for example, Katana fighting Hakon even by an official artist like Charlebois or Paur, cannot be used because such a thing hasn't taken place in canon.<br />
<br />
Karine also has beautiful art of Brooklyn up, with everything we've seen since the end of "[[Phoenix]]." Except for the eye-patch. And since we don't know when he received his injury relative to when he received all his weapons and the armor, that art would not meet our criteria.<br />
<br />
What do you all think? Thoughts? Suggestions? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 10:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:I vote for canon pics. I feel that the purity of the canon material is more important than whether or not it looks good. Take Wikipedia for example. How many articles have you seen with grainy and badly drawn pictures of TV show characters, even though higher quality fanart pictures have always been available? We can have character models that were drawn behind the scenes. And we can have fanart here and there, but it shouldn't dominate the canon material. For me, canon and CiT should be above everything. And you guys can always count on me to touch up canon screenshots or scans that look a little sub par. What do you guys think? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:04, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::Taina, I think you missed what was being said. We're discussing revising the rules, with a VERY STRICT criteria to allow us to use the best resources we have. And as for wikipedia... I think it is a TERRIBLE website full of misinformation that is dumbing us down as a culture, and I refuse to use them as an authority on anything. And [http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality|Stephen Colbert agrees with me] ;)--[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:11, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::I'd revise the rules to never let fanart take the top spot. As a fan artist myself, I think I know where I'm coming from on this. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:24, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Yes, but you aren't a canon artist doing a fan-art, really the only ones who can respond to this with weight are Karine, Greg Guler, Frank Paur, Chris Jones, and anyone else who worked on the designs in the show/comic. For my part, I can see both sides of the argument, and have remained relatively neutral in these proceedings, however, if I am to cast a vote, I vote with in favor of GregXB's proposal providing that all of the safeguards and requirements he has requested are strictly enforced. --[[User:Griffinwyrm7|Griffinwyrm7]] 11:32, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
: Perhaps if the non-canon pics included some form of disclaimer identifying them as such in the captions? I'm not opposed to revising the rules, provided whatever rule we do eventually decide on is both clear and unambiguous. [[User:Algernon|Algernon]] 12:03, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: I agree with Greg that we should attempt to use the best picture available. But to me, the best picture available will always be canon over non-canon (or CiT) by default. Greg, I had the same thought about Karine's Brooklyn art in regards to the eye patch and armor and stuff and you should be able to see that by the same logic we cannot include the Katana picture. We have never seen Katana and the Phoenix together. I admit, I'm sure she has seen it plenty, but in the canon it has yet to happen. Therefore, by your own logic, the Katana picture isn't canon and shouldn't be allowed. But regardless of whether you accept that argument or not, the majority seems to be against the picture as the main pic, but fine with the compromose of having it lower on the page. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 14:58, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:::Matt, no offense, but you are reaching so far, I want to ask you how the food in China is tasting. And what majority? There are three in favor of the pic... and who knows who else is going to come in to vote. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: If I read you correctly, your comment actually supports Greg's proposal. Greg said that we know Brooklyn will receive his injury and his gear, but not when. By the same logic, we know that Katana will someday travel with Brooklyn by way of the Phoenix, but not when. Unless Greg Weisman joins Scientology or something else that might severely distort the master plan, we know it's going to happen. So I don't see any harm in Karine's Katana pic. If someday we get more canon Gargoyles in some form and a better pic of Katana comes along, I would be in favor of using that pic instead. But right now, I think Karine's is the best we have. --[[User:Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
:::Except that it isn't canon. The fact that it is or isn't a superior pic is irrelevant. The quality of the picture is not the point. The point is that this site has always been about putting canon first, then CiT, then apocrypha. Bishansky has been one of the strongest supporters of this policy. It is only when that policy conflicts with his personal desires that he decides that a discussion needs to be had about the matter. At best, Karine's Katana picture only qualifies as CiT and the canon picture should take precedence.<br />
:::Look, Greg, this is a wiki. If you want your own Gargoyles site where you can do whatever you want regardless of what others think, that's fine. But don't try to hijack this site for that purpose. The community-based nature of this site means that we don't all always get our way. For instance, I HATE the negative and immature "reviews" of various apocrypha elements (specifically some TGC episodes) and I am greatly annoyed by the subjective statements, stupid captions, crude jokes and other unproffesional edits that litter many of the pages on this wiki. And I know I am not alone or even in the minority on a lot of it. But I choose my battles because this isn't my site. And it isn't yours either. It is a work of the all the contributors. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:29, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Matt, was there really a need to get this personal? Really. Yes, this is a community. Look at all the people here discussing this issue. I didn't just change the rules willy nilly. I called for an official discussion on this, and made a proposal. A proposal that we are discussing and voting on already. Yes, it was a little inappropriate to make that remark about how far you're reaching, I get that. But you had to get really personal. So stop accusing me of being Sauron. Were I Sauron, I'd have blocked everyone and done what I wanted, but no... I wanted to have an actual discussion and vote. And from the looks of things, you don't have the majority you were boasting about. Hell, we even had Katana's designer, Robby Bevard, another canon artist, come in and say the one in the comic is off model. If you have personal issues with me, you have my e-mail address. For the record, I have no personal issues with you. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: Do you specifically know someone who likes the Goliath Chronicles? If you do, please invite them to defend their opinions here. And I would also like to add that I wrote a very unflattering article about the Assassin on this wiki, which someone edited. And I respected that, because my opinions on the Assassin exist on other sites. But what is being suggested here does not seem unflattering. --[Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
I designed Katana, and colored the issue she appeared in. Ben Dunn was incredibly off model in many, many respects, (The world will never know just how much I had to redraw, and how much more I wished I had time for...) and had no knowledge of the series, he was ONLY brought on because deadlines needed to be met. As it is, I redrew half the pages Katana appeared on anyway and had to add all the weapons on Brooklyn. It was NOT the optimal art. If I'd had more time before the deadline, or the artist had been more open to redrawing pages, she'd be closer to on model and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion in the first place. I'd say use the cleaner full body shot by a different artist that worked on the books. Deadlines are the bane of this sort of thing... Didn't Enter Macbeth have retakes done? Didn't Vows have its ending changed after the first airing? Didn't the mutates all get complete redesigns after their first appearance? I'd say, at the very least, have the professional full body shot (by one of the folks that worked on the comic!) available on the wiki for viewing, even if its not the first and foremost pic.--[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 17:56, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I agree that Karine's art can stay, but it shouldn't be the foremost pic. It should be canon and CiT first, right? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:02, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Makes sense to me. I hate the final product as it appeared in the book for a variety of reasons, but... canon should be first. Maybe it can be really small. As is, I've always assumed that Katana will have some sort of redesign or tweaking anyway whenever she next appears in some form of media. Since the final art really was not good or ideal. --[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 18:17, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you agree Robby. And thanks for all your hard work, by the way.<br />
::As far as I can tell, no one has suggested that Karine's picture be completely taken off the site. Everyone seems to be alright with it being on Katana's page somewhere. It really just comes down to some of us prefering quality over canon and some of us prefering canon over quality. Obviously, I'm in the latter group.<br />
::As for the TGC pages. There are fans who like TGC. I'm not one of them, but that isn't the point. The point is that those pages take this site down a lot in my opinion. Most of us strive to make this site professional and objective and canon-centered and those pages make the site seem like a joke. And most of us are not laughing. That is my opinion, of course. I'd prefer to do away with all the nonsense myself, but I'm content to only worry about the canon and CiT material and resign myself to the fact that others will use this site to attack Gargoyles apocryphal material they didn't like.<br />
::Which brings me back to Katana. As a canon page with a depicted canon character I feel we should focus on her canon appearence. For good or ill, the canon picture is the canon picture for now and nothing is going to change that. If Karine (or whomever) produces a better quality CANON picture down the road, I'd love to replace the current canon picture with the new one. But until that point, what we have is what we have.<br />
::Or perhaps we should enlist Karine or other canon artists in re-drawing all the art we don't like into non-canon portraits and landscapes for use as canon material. Please. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 18:23, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
:::Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen. I'm fine with fixing up little animation errors, editing out grain and logos... but it has to stop somewhere. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:30, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::So recap -- this is really TWO issues in one -- 1) Do we allow unofficial art by official artists on GargWiki? AND 2) Would an unofficial piece of art be OK to take the main focus of the article, in particular, in cases when Canon material is ''also'' available (especially when the quality of the two works is being considered). The first issue is clearly the most non-controversial -- Everyone seems loves Karine's work on Katana, myself included (and that's not to mentioning her other unofficial work featured in the [[Dingo]], [[Redemption Squad]] and [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns]] pages). In my eye, the precedence of unofficial art by official artists is what allows us to have CIT to ''begin with'' -- Greg Weisman's own continued and unofficial work as creator of the show. As for the second issue, I give my vote for Canon material before CIT and anything else unofficial (this is why Apocrypha is located at the bottom of a character's page and why CIT is tagged at the top of the page or marked in {{CIT|blue type}} . . . but that doesn't mean that the unofficial work by the official artists can't be included in the Wiki. Just trying to clear things up a bit while adding my own two cents --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:36, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Tallying it all up, okay, I lost. Cool. That's democracy. We had an official discussion, and for now, I lost it. That's what democracy is. Good thing I don't throw my weight around here and behave like a dictator like certain people like to insinuate, and then not apologize when they get called on it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:Based on the outcome of this discussion, I've swapped back the positions of the Katana images so that the canon image appears first. (This seems to have slightly mucked up the position of the other images on the page, so if someone can figure out how to fix that please do - I'm sure this has changed since we upgraded wiki software.)<br />
:Robby, your comments about the process and the final artwork are very interesting. Would you be opposed to having them on the relevant wiki articles? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:59, 20 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
==JEB's Resignation==<br />
JEB recently resigned as our administrator. Of course we here at GargWiki thank him for getting this site started and for doing as much as he did since it's inception... which was quite a bit behind the scenes. How ever, we need another admin to become the primary point of contact for technical or administrative issues from this point forward. Scott Sakai (who runs the server with Gorebash) can take care of the patching and other server-side activities. However, someone else would need to take care of the administrative tasks (i.e. everything else that is done through the web interface). I would do it, but I have no idea how. So, is anyone interested in the position? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:47, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:I also have no idea how. I doubt any of the regular editors know how. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:21, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::No idea here either. I was gonna recommend Supermorff! Guess not. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:03, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::Yeah, my first instincts said Supermorff too. Hmm, anyone else? I think Thogial has some wiki experience. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:17, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I've left Thogial a message about it. If he can't do it, I'm willing to learn. (Although I'll be busy for the next three weeks or so. After that, I'll be willing to learn.) -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:41, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::I'm afraid I'm not the guy. I do have wiki experience; I know my way around CSS, though I'm (almost) totally ignorant of Javascript. However, I'm not entirely sure my experience would address the needs of this site... At Wikia we run wikis via CSS and JS, but here I gather it's more like a web hosting forum site (web interface and whatnot) and I've never done that. You're looking for someone who knows how to solve problems when they occur--not someone who needs to learn how to do it first. For instance, I have no clue on how to solve the software issue we've had since you moved the site...<br />
:::::On the other hand, if we can't find a suitable replacement, then the best alternative would be something as per Supermorff's suggestion: we round up three or four members to chime in and learn who to do it, intuitively or otherwise. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 05:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Hi, JEB here. I really don't think it should be that hard to replace me on the web side of the wiki; anyone who's had wiki and admin experience (like most of you above) should be able to do it after a quick review of the options on Special Pages. There's also plenty of advice on operating Mediawiki wikis on the web. Whoever steps up to the plate, I thank him and wish him well. [[User:Jeb|Jeb]] 14:09, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:Hey, Jeb. Well if that's the case, then I'd be happy to lend a hand. But not alone. Must this be a one man's job? Because I'd feel more comfortable with some backup... Supermorff? If we can share the load, I'm game. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 15:03, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:I could try my best to learn also. So, what do you say? Supermoff, Thogial, and I sharing the load? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::The more the merrier. Since you two have been here the longest, I'll be L-3. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Woot! I get to be Vandal Savage! ... and shadows still conceal our light! -[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I get to be nigh immortal and with an army of assassins at my disposal. Supermorff gets to be bald. :p -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:53, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::No, L-3 is bald, that's you. I get the army of assassins and a name that is constantly mispronounced. More than happy to help out here too, though. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:15, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::::Oh crap, that's right. Oh well, I get the hot assistant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 03:47, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:Well, you three have my vote -- JEB, thanks for everything you've done for the GargWiki (especially since its probably stuff I'll never fully realize) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
''*Face scrambling mode: ON.*'' So, what's the situation regarding this matter? --[[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 09:08, 4 April 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Apocrypha appearances==<br />
A friend mentioned on Facebook: ''"So the GargWiki doesn't list characters' episode appearances from the third season. That's decidedly unhelpful regardless of whether or not it's canon."'' He was looking for Fox's TGC appearances. While this is not unreasonable, the Appearances section on the character pages is designed for canon only. And then what, do we log all the Marvel Comic appearances? All the Disney Adventures comic appearances? I'm not against it, but this is something that will need to be discussed, researched, because it would be a large project. I definitely don't want it incorporated into the main appearances section on each page, though. And, to be honest, I don't want to be the one to do this. The last thing I want to do is re-visit TGC. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:52, 6 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:While i think it is great that this Wiki has always been home to all things "Gargoyles" I think it is pretty clear that we are strongly biased to the canon. So for this to go down I'd suggest one or both of two things. 1. Make a seperate appearances section within the apocrypha sections of each characters page listing what apocrypha episodes/issues they appeared in and 2. Make an appearance list on each apocrypha page saying who was in the TGC episode or Marvel issue. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:58, 7 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Archmage's time loop ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
Hi, everyone. So it's that time of the year when I binge re-watch ''Gargoyles'' and I am up to the "Avalon" three-parter. As always I tried to make sense of the Archmage's time loop, but to no avail, but this time I decided to make some research. I found [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/faq20.htm this] long reply from GW and a few short ones [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12991] [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13167] that helped some. For me, Griff's time loop was always easier to understand than the Archmage's, maybe because the latter involved both of his selves, while the former involves a [[Goliath|third party]]. I was never at any convention, so I never saw GW explaining the loop with a diagram, so I made my own from what I understand of the loop and GW's explanations. Am I close? Does anyone have any comments/explanations? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 16:36, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Awesome diagram, Thogial! Yep, visually, that looks pretty darn accurate to how Greg's typically described it (and how I, at the least, always made sense out of it). That said, while I see it in the arrow's paths, the diagram could probably still use some written explanation that the Enhanced Archmage (that led the proto-Archmage through time), following his younger self (now enhanced)'s departure back to 984, goes on to attack Oberon's Palace. Maybe even include his death in 1995, if there's room. In any event, the final version has to go on [[Archmage|his]] page, as well as "[[Avalon Part Two|Avalon]]" Part Two page --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:56, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::How's that? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 06:19, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
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:::<nowiki>**thumbs up**</nowiki> Seriously, great work Thogial :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:16, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
::::Thanks. :) I took the liberty of putting some dissertation around it. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 11:30, 19 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Canon is coming ==<br />
So, here's the question... how long should we wait before adding spoilers to the GargWiki? Obviously, we can edit the new issues' pages right away, but... do we update character entries at once, or should we give it a few days to a week? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:If memory serves right, I felt we added spoiler content to the wiki pretty quickly -- issue pages, characters, objects, etc . . . not to mention converting CIT to Canon and adding new canon-in-training when reasonable, but those edits were usually tagged as containing spoiler content in the edit summary/notes. Invisible Spoiler tags were the etiquette and expectation for Station 8 reviews and discussions. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:05, 9 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Appearances ==<br />
<br />
Okay, I've got two thoughts here. We've got another spin-off coming, "Gargoyles: Dark Ages" and how do we want to deal with this in the Appearances sections on character pages? Should we leave it as is, and add the appearance in the order the issue comes out... or should we undertake the big project of dividing the Appearances sections on character pages into different series? For example: "Appearances in Gargoyles", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Bad Guys", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Dark Ages"? Someone like Demona appears in all three, for example. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I would personally prefer we keep the style we adopted with ''[[Gargoyles: Bad Guys]]'' -- Dividing up the appearances doesn't seem consistent to the intentions of the wiki. Best case, it amounts to a lot of rearranging, and worst case it could leave the impression that the main comic (or the original series) has more weight than the rest (which I can comfortably suspect is not the opinion of anyone here). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:43, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::That makes sense, because then why not have a Goliath Chronicles appearances section? Or Marvel and Disney Adventures? But I am open to a counterargument. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:55, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::With all canon material I think we should list appearances in order of official release of the media. So if a character appears in Gargoyles Chapter 7, then Dark Ages Chapter 1, then Gargoyles Chapter 8, we will list their appearances in that order. My two cents, of course. If we want to put TGC, marvel comic book material, etc in an appearances list in the apocrypha section, thats fine, but I generally don't care about non-canon stuff. Should be its own thing though. [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 12:54, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::It has been noted elsewhere that while the editors on this wiki cover all things related to ''Gargoyles'', our preferred interest historically prioritizes canon and {{CIT|canon-in-training}}. I'd opt also for establishing a precedent for an appearances subsection under a character's Apocrypha section. [[Demona]] is probably the best example of possibilities, with multiple non-canonical appearances on screen, page, stage, and device(? I'm thinking video games here, which, for the Demona page specifically, looks like it needs some toggling anyhow). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 12:59, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::::The Demona page might be our second biggest page outside of the timeline. And maybe it does need to be broken up in places. For example, look at all the Megatron pages on TFWiki: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Megatron_(G1) . But I agree, let's leave the Appearance section as is. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 13:11, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
OH! Apologies, I should have mentioned this earlier. One change I have made in the Appearances section a month or so back, each column now has a cap of twenty-five titles. Once we hit twenty-five, we start a new column. We can increase or decrease this, but I'd like it uniform. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 08:48, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Sounds good to me. Hopefully, we eventually have to tackle the problem of too many columns! [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 09:28, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Releases ==<br />
<br />
So, at what point is something no longer a "new release" (boy, I love that we're now asking this question). Right now, I'm operating on a year, but is that too much? For example, NECA Hudson was released last September; that's nine months. Is it still new? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:12, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
: For NECA, I'm undecided, but for the comics (of which, anectodally, my local shop currently only has leftovers of "A Little Crazy" still on the shelves), I was figuring we take the first six off the New Release list once the first trade debuts. And, no idea what the traffic is here, but I haven't plugged the trade on the Coming Soon section so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing those first six issues. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 11:06, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Thinking about names like a human==<br />
In recognizing that we will be inundated with placeholder-names for the various gargoyle characters from ''Dark Ages'', and seeing some inconsistency pop up across the wiki (and occasionally on the same page), I wanted to bring up an idea to standardize our approach. <br />
<br />
While we certainly want to continue prioritizing canonical names like Coldstone and Coldfire to Othello and Desdemona, for all intents and purposes, the characters we refer to as Second, Sacrifice, and Verity will never (barring time travel) have a true name in any canon work. So I do find it a bit silly to keep throwing quotes around their placeholder-names when nothing more concrete (pun somewhat intended) is anticipated.<br />
<br />
Any edits I've made quoting a character's placeholder/behind-the-scenes name have been made when we've no real other way to distinguish them from names a character gave to themselves or were received by others in the series. Names like True and Hyppolyta certainly aren't apocryphal, but it's a flavor of non-canon that can’t ever really ''become'' canon, so the canon-in-training template doesn't fit. <br />
<br />
BUT, inspired by our ever-helpful CIT template, I whipped up and tinkered with (in previews mode), a different-colored template for characters that had no true name. In essence, the placeholder-name would be bolded in gray type. This color choice can be adjusted of course, but the idea is that whatever color chosen and settled on (if we did go this route) would not jar too much from the white text and contrast well enough from the blue backgrounds and bluer-CIT type. (I also liked the gray because a passive, stony-looking color fit well opposite to that of an actively used name.) <br />
<br />
I've also included a hover text that gets highlighted when a cursor is over the name: '''"This is not the character's true name."''' That phrasing can also be tinkered with, but it does work for situations ranging from Iago (in the credits) to Kermit (only in the script). (More on Mentor & Angel below.)<br />
<br />
At the moment, I've tinkered the template tag with the name NoTrueName, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. NoNames or something pithier could be hashed out later.<br />
<br />
To sum up, in the overall desire that we have a consensus for being consistent one way or another, our options for writing articles with characters that are lacking true names include:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Option 1''', no quotes, no nothing for placeholder names (but to the uninitiated, this can be misleading).<br />
:For the next twenty-three years Second and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 2''', consistent quotes for placeholder-names.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years “Second” and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 3''', tag the character’s placeholder name with the new template.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years <span title="This is not the character's true name." style="cursor:help; color:#999999; font-weight:bold">Second</span> and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now, I think it is best to also remember that there is a distinction to consider between <nowiki>'</nowiki>names<nowiki>'</nowiki> like Mentor and Angel that do have SOME canonical association (Coldstone to Hudson and Goliath to Demona), whereas names like Schnozz, Brooksbro, and Kermit are really only for scripting purposes. That’s why I would be ok with not quoting or tagging Mentor and Angel with the potential-new template (I’ve noticed we don’t quote Gargoyle of the Sword for Brooklyn).<br />
<br />
I know that's a lot, and some options would require more overhaul across the wiki than others, but I’d love to hear what others think. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm okay with whatever the team decides. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:11, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you brought this up. It was already feeling inconsistent and messy and was only going to get worse. My vote would be option 2. If the name is purely a placeholder for an unnamed character we use quotations. Always. Maybe even in the title for the respective page. And the quotes should be explained in the header. Mentor and Angel can use those names until the switch to Hudson and Demona, and it should be "Othello" until he receives the name Coldstone. Just my thoughts. I'm not stuck on it. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 18:15, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::That would be my preference as well. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 21:32, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, so consistent quotes for '''all''' placeholder-names. On the subject of in-universe non-names likes Mentor and Angel and Gargoyle of the Sword, I agree we use them in their proper context (before they are Hudson and Demona, and in Brooklyn's case I see that handle usually on the pages of characters in 997 that wouldn't know his name), but I want us all to be on the same page. Do we use quotes for those names too? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 21:40, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I say no quotes on Angel, Mentor, etc. since they are used in-universe. Thoughts on changing the name of pages from Sacrifice to "Sacrifice"? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 06:13, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Okie doke, no quotes for in-universe non-names. And for characters that will, in all likelihood, never have a canonical name, yes, let's change those page names. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Works for me. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 12:35, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I've done the moves for every 10th century Wyvern gargoyle without a true name save for Hyppolyta and Antiope. We have at least one unknown character (for now) naming gargoyles after historical and legendary figures in the prose story, and I'm preferring being patient in Hyppolyta's case. If anyone feels this caution is unneeded, we can move that page too with one with quotes. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I'm sure there are pages that haven't been adjusted yet that we'll spot in the meantime, but I just wanted to quickly note some quirks this new standard will bring us. For one, I really don't love seeing a apostrophe used next to a character's name that's been quoted, so I rewrote a couple sentences ("Kermit"'s page had a hard one). Also, I saw on the timeline that when Puck was impersonating "Goliath" in "Possession", we used quotes that date's entry. So that kind of nuance can get tricky. I don't know. I still prefer that we have a system that makes sense to all of us, and if those nitpicks I mention don't bother anyone else, then I'm fine with what we have. If they are some cause for concern or query, then I leave this comment for food for thought if we did want to readress and/or adjust course a bit before the next ''Dark Ages'' comic comes out.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::I agree, we definitely need a uniform system. I'm not sure what my preference is, but whatever the group decides, I'm down with it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:10, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Great job, Phoen! All looking really good. As for the "Goliath" issue, maybe we could just do something like [[Puck|Puck (As Goliath)]] or something so that it isn't the same system as the quotations. Or we just leave it as this is a special case. Like Greg, I'm open to whatever. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 07:25, 25 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
With new canon, and this renaissance of GARGOYLES taking place, it's time for us to really modernize this thing. I am no computer programmer or wiki programmer, but I know someone who is interested in overhauling the visuals of the GargWiki. But what we also need to do is update our episode summaries. A lot of great people have done a lot of hard work here, but we're lacking in the episode and comic book synopsis department. Take a look at the [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Young_Justice_Wiki Young Justice Wiki], look at their episode and comic book synopsis's... it's a real reference site. So are we, but the bar has been raised and I think we need to meet it. Something the fandom can use, something the people bringing us new official stories can use. A brief summary of main plot and subplot is not a clear and clean exposition of the plot. Right now story points are often glossed over or left unmentioned or taken out of context. So let's make this something we can truly build, we don't need to get it done over night... but something we can slowly chip away at. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:38, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Hello. Here at GregX’s request. It’s going to take me some time to get back up to speed on wiki editing, but I’m willing to help. Do we want to make a list of high priority episodes/issues that we should start with? Stuff that might be particularly relevant for what’s happening in the comics right not? Or maybe just a list of everything that needs to be done that can be consulted and checked off as we go? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] ([[User talk:Demonskrye|talk]]) 08:53, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Great to see you back! Well, I just took care of the synopsis for [[The Edge]]. I don't think we need to overthink things at this point. Let's start small, make sure we have the format down and then go from there. We can make a check list, volunteer for specific episodes. And of course keep each other in the loop if life happens and we can't tackle it and someone else might like to. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:[[Thrill of the Hunt|"Thrill of the Hunt"]], [[Temptation|"Temptation"]], and [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] all look like viable examples to model for other episode pages. At the least, providing a more detailed three-act breakdown will help compensate for the fact that ''Gargoyles'' doesn't usually have timestamps that the YJ Wiki can depend on as reference. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I'm looking at you, Stone of Destiny arc, lol. You have timestamps up to the brim! d: --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:48, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Demonskrye did a fantastic job with those. I intend to get started soon. Maybe I'll start with "The Edge". --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::If no one minds, I can take a crack with "Upgrade" -- I can at least coordinate with the upcoming ''Voices From the Eyrie'' (not to worry, I wouldn't make this a monthly endeavor) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::Please do. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 04:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:All right, I just added the "skeleton" (three acts and such) to each canonical episode entry. My way of making our statement of intent, and I plan to get started very soon. And, on top of that, Demonskrye's synopsis for "Temptation" is the perfect model. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 05:21, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Oooh, I just thought of something; perhaps, when an episode has one at the end, we can include an additional section after Act Three dubbed the 'Xanatos Tag'. We've long had it on the to-do list here on the Community Portal, and pointing out how that played out in the various episodes (especially when another character subverts the expectation) might be the natural fit that hasn't been found elsewhere on the GargWiki -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 06:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's the master list. Feel free to update with ones you plan to do and ones that were done. Also, when you claim an episode page to work on, please date it and sign it with '''<nowiki>{{CIT|Claimed by ~~~~}}</nowiki>''' <br />
<br />
{| style="width:100%"<br />
|<br />
'''Season 1 episodes''' – ('''13/13 Complete''') <br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
<br />
'''Season 2 episodes''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">29/52 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|09/52 Claimed}} | '''14/52 Complete''')<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]]<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 02:35, 7 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Shadows of the Past|"Shadows of the Past"]]<br />
# [[Heritage|"Heritage"]]<br />
# [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]]<br />
# [[Monsters|"Monsters"]]<br />
# [[Golem (episode)|"Golem"]]<br />
# [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[M.I.A.|"M.I.A."]] - {{CIT|Chip plans to do it.}}<br />
# [[Grief|"Grief"]]<br />
# [[The Hound of Ulster|"The Hound of Ulster"]]<br />
# [[Walkabout|"Walkabout"]]<br />
# [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]]<br />
# [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]]<br />
# [[The New Olympians|"The New Olympians"]]<br />
# [[The Green|"The Green"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Sentinel (episode)|"Sentinel"]]<br />
# [[Bushido (episode)|"Bushido"]]<br />
# [[Cloud Fathers (episode)|"Cloud Fathers"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 23:34, 2 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Ill Met By Moonlight|"Ill Met By Moonlight"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:38, 28 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]<br />
# [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Vendettas|"Vendettas"]]<br />
# [[Turf|"Turf"]]<br />
# [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]]<br />
# [[Possession|"Possession"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part One|"Hunter's Moon" Part One]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Two|"Hunter's Moon" Part Two]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
|<br />
'''Gargoyles: Clan-Building''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">12/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
# [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
# [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]]<br />
# [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
# [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
# [[Reunion|"Reunion"]] <br />
# [[The Rock|"The Rock"]] - {{CIT| Claimed by merlyn, 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] - {{CIT| Claimed by merlyn, 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] - {{ CIT| Claimed by merlyn, 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[The Gate|"The Gate"]]<br />
# [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]]<br />
# [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Bad Guys''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">04/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[Strangers|"Strangers"]]<br />
# [[The Lost|"The Lost"]]<br />
# [[Estranged|"Estranged"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Louse|"Louse"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Strangled|"Strangled"]]<br />
# [[Losers|"Losers"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">10/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
# [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
# [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
# [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
# [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]]<br />
# [[Underwater|"Underwater"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Mayday|"Mayday"]]<br />
# [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
# [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Eleven]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Dark Ages''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
# [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
# [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
# [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Five]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Six]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Specials''' - ('''<span style="color:#d12525">01/01 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/01 Claimed}} | '''00/01 Completed''')<br />
# [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Episode Order==<br />
Recently, I added [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] to character appearances, and I placed it prior to [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]. Now, I know we've been placing things in release order, and that's a rule that I am in favor of continuing. But we've been making exceptions for this all along, too. For example: [[The Price|"The Price"]] aired earlier in sequence and [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]] aired late. Greg Weisman provided his preferred order... that order appeared on the DVD's. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the eventual trade paperback collections that the Halloween Special will be placed after the "Here In Manhattan" arc. Although, Disney+ has those two previous episodes in the airing order. And while I am still all in favor of issue releases for spin-offs like Bad Guys and Dark Ages being placed in release order (because that's the intended release order)... I do think we need a rule, with exceptions taking into account. But this isn't a hill I want to die on, so I'll abide by the consensus. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:21, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:The impetus for us shifting "The Price" and "The Kingdom" around was because of Greg Weisman's input. Should he mention something in a tweet or on a future ''Voices on the Eyrie'', I'm ok with the move. Otherwise, I think we can wait until the trades come out to see what the intended order is. I'm supportive with moving the Halloween Special up in the episode order and had been thinking similar thoughts since "Trick-Or-Treat" came out, but I didn't see a rush then and I don't see it now until we have something at least at the CIT level. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 07:48, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
::I agree with Phoen. But, like Greg B, I'm not going to make a fuss about it either way. --[[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 08:59, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::So, for practicality's sake for these next few issues, do we proceed with release order when it comes to new appearances being added to character pages after "Trick-Or-Treat" (at least, until we hear something definitive from Greg Weisman about the intended order)? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2023 (PDT)</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=GargWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=39474GargWiki talk:Community Portal2023-11-19T00:05:30Z<p>Merlyn: /* Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki */</p>
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<div>Since someone suggested it earlier, I decided to go ahead and open up the community portal for general discussions/suggestions for the whole of GargWiki. Enjoy! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 17:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Yay! Thank you Moeen. Now I have a place to make a suggestion: Does the side and border of the website have to be bright white? I like the dark blue of the rest of the site, it is easier on the eyes, but the white is hard on the eyes. Maybe it could be some other color, such as light blue? I know this is minor but little aesthetic things impact a website's overall viewing experience. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:06, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:You're welcome. :-) As for the background, I think in order to change it you have to edit the default skin used by the wiki, which is not something I know how to do, but I'm sure it can be done. Speaking of knowing how to do things, the link to [[:Help:Contents|Help]] on the sidebar links to a page that doesn't even exist! It would be nice if you could actually get help from the help page. Maybe some of the people running this place can put something there? Surely there's a MediaWiki manual for this site? Also, we could put up some general guidelines for writing articles on the GargWiki in the help section or on a related page. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:20, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Yes! A very good idea. And filling out the Help page would also be good. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:49, 9 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Italics==<br />
Got another question. I've gone through the wiki and italicized all capitalized references to ''Gargoyles'' the television show and ''Gargoyles'' the property. Should references to Gargoyles the comic book also be italicized? Right now the wiki is inconsistent, but I have seen ''Gargoyles: Bad Guys'' italicized. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:21, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Just my opinion, but I do think the title of both the television series and the comic book series (as opposed to the titles of episodes/issues) should be consistently italicized - gdw<br />
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:I've been using Wikipedia conventions (which I always fall back on in cases of confusion), which basically say television series, plays, films, comic book series, etc are all italicized. Episode titles are not italicized, but they are put in inverted commas "". On GargWiki we tend to use both italics and quotation marks for episode citations, but I think that's a special case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::So I went through and changed all the ones I could find. But here's a question. We're italicizing the names of episodes and comic issues in this Wiki. Should we also italicize the parenthises? The current state seems slightly inconsistent. My personal preference is to leave the parenthises non-italicized, but my main interest is to standardize the formatting throughout the Wiki. What format should we set? We could do it like this: ''("[[Monsters]]")'' or like this: (''"[[Monsters]]"''). -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:29, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::Are we italicizing the episodes and comic issues? I'm not sure that's consistent on the wiki either. But my opinion of it is that it is the citation that is italicized, not the episode. So I prefer italicizing the parenthises too, but that's just my preference. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 17:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Creating new pages==<br />
OK, I'm still a bit new to wiki-ing, so I'm not familiar with all the procedure. I'd like to add a new page for the Disney Adventures comic "A Study In Stone" (which would be counted in Apocrypha, of course, but I don't knw how to make a new page, or even if I can, not being a mod. Help? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14 September 2007<br />
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:You absolutely can! Anyone can create a page, and you can do it in one of two ways.<br />
:'''The first way:''' if you edit a page to include a link to your required article (in this case by adding the text <nowiki>[[A Study In Stone]]</nowiki>) it will produce a red (broken) link. Note that, when you edit a page to make a link like this, you can just use the preview button and you don't even need a to save. Next, you click on the red link (as if it was a non-broken, regular link), and it will take you to that page's "edit page". From there you can edit the page as if it already existed, and when you save it'll be right there.<br />
:'''The second way:''' you type in the title you want in the search bar to the left of the screen and push "Go". It will tell you that "No page with <font color="red">this exact title</font> exists". If you click on the red link on the words "this exact title", it will send you to the edit page of the page you want.<br />
:If you want to practice first, try creating your own user page by clicking on the link to [[User:Demonskrye]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Much thanks! The article for [[A Study in Stone]] is now up and viewable in the [[:Category:Apocrypha|Aprocrypha category]]. We can move it into one of the sub-categories, but until "Apocrypha Epsiodes" becomes something like "Apocrypha Storylines", I don't think there's an appropriate one for it. Also, I'd suggest that we put the info for making a new page into the now empty "Help" section.<br />
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A similar question. I've now done a couple of articles for the Disney Adventures comics, so I think we could use a "Disney Adevntures" subcategory in [[:Category:Apocrypha]]. I checked over on MediaWiki, but I'm still confused about how a subcategory is made. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 17 September 2007<br />
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:Those pages look pretty good. Creating a category is just like creating a page, except that you need to include the "Category:" prefix (note the colon). So either add the category to a page and use the red link, or type "Category:Whatever" into the search bar and hit "go", then proceed as before. For a subcategory, you just need to categorize the category. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Help==<br />
Since there's nothing in the help section, at some point I'll copy the help pages from MediaWiki here. In the meantime, you can find all the help you need [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents here]. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Google rankings==<br />
On 19 September 2007 (about 7 pm GMT), a search for 'Gargoyles' on Google turns up GargWiki at number 92 (the Gargoyles page on Wikiquote is 93). 'Gargoyles+Disney' is even worse at 132, and even then the link is to Category:Apocrypha (there's another link to the Episode Guide at 145). 'Gargoyles+TV' has a link to Grimorum at 18, but GargWiki doesn't appear until 75 (Talk:Main Page).<br />
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Obviously, this is not a great situation to be in. Wikia has a few suggestions to improve the rankings [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Toughpigs/10_steps_to_raise_your_wiki%27s_Google_ranking here]. Section 2 is particularly interesting. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:24, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:So perhaps our rankings would be better if the name of the main page was something like "GargWiki - The Disney's Gargoyles Wiki" rather than the way we have it now, which Google may not get? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 19 September 2007<br />
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::I don't feel that Google rankings are as important as other might think, and our priority should be to improve the content here as best we can. But regardless, whatever you do '''''don't spam or vandalize other sites with links to GargWiki'''''. It is precisely [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/G._Bishansky this] kind of behavior (see [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=2669 here] for a more specific example) that got us blocked from Wikipedia, and probably other sites as well. If that happens, we'll be down even ''lower'' than we are now with the rankings. So please keep that in mind. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::That's true. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I never meant to even imply that spamming other sites was in any way a good thing. Cos it's not. Seriously.<br />
:::But changing the name of the Main Page might not be a bad idea, as long as we can do it without causing too much disruption. "GargWiki - The Gargoyles Wiki" is probably enough, or just "Gargoyles Wiki" as inour logo. But it might make the page look odd. I notice that the Main Pages on Wikipedia and Wikia sites don't have titles, as other pages do. Is there some way we could do that here? If not... maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:12, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Community Portal upgrade==<br />
I'm thinking of moving this page to [[GargWiki talk:Community Portal]], and turning [[GargWiki:Community Portal]] into an actual project page. I mean a proper "Welcome to the Community Portal, and here's what we got going on" sort of project page. We could have links to all the ongoing discussions throughout the wiki, which would be useful, and I'm also thinking of having a "Requested pages" section, where users can (basically) request a page. Thoughts? Comments? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:54, 8 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:Sounds like a good idea. This site really does need a page introducing new users or potential users to how things work around here. Plus we really need some guidelines, and given that there doesn't seem to exist any anywhere on this site, this would be good place to set some up.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 14:43, 11 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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::[[GargWiki:Policy]] has some behavioural guidelines, if that's what you mean. Is that what you meant? But anyway, since this could be a complicated reorganisation I'll start writing up a draft of the new page before I start doing anything. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:28, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:::I've written up a page - not quite everything I had originally intended, but it's a good start and we can always expand it later. I'll make the switch-over now. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:12, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
:::Done. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:20, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
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==A history lesson==<br />
Does anyone here know how GargWiki came to be made? When was it started, and who by, and what prompted its creation? I'm just asking because it would be nice to get a little background (not necessarily a lot) to flesh out the page [[GargWiki:About]]. I know that it must have been created on or shortly before 26 July 2006, because that's the first edit I can find and it's also when [[User:Jeb]], [[User:Greg Bishansky]] and [[User:Trio]] were made administrators. If anyone does know, feel free to answer either here or at [[GargWiki talk:About]]... or just add the information to the page. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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== Upgrading the Wiki ==<br />
<br />
Looking into Matt's suggestion for an Appearances section, I've noticed that this wiki lacks some of the functionality of other wikis because it's out of date. In particular, the version of MediaWiki used here is 1.5.1, whereas the latest version is 1.11.0. Granted we usually don't use the full functionality of the wiki, but it's still useful to stay up to date. Not being a system admin, I can't update the wiki myself, but it would be nice if whoever is the system admin is would do so.<br />
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As far as using Wikipedia's referencing system, to install it follow the installation instructions [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation here]. It's only two steps, but requires accessing the system, something I can't do, but a system admin would be able to do.<br />
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P.S. Happy New Years to everyone! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 03:00, 1 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:I commented on this at [[Talk:Appearences Section]], but I'll repeat myself here: you can search for admins by using [[Special:Listusers]], but the ones that are most likely to be able to help you are Greg B, Matt, or Jeb.<br />
:Happy New Year to you too. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:34, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Sounds like you guys know more about the Wikipedia software than I do. You'll have to talk to Jeb or Greg B. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 15:36, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Alright, thanks. I'll inform Jeb and Greg B. on their talk pages and see it they can do something about it.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:44, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Ten years later, I now have access to the server. I haven't upgraded the wiki yet, but I will as soon as I am convinced I know what I'm doing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 2 March 2018 (PST)<br />
:Judging by the lack of dark colors, I'm guessing things are happening, here. Call me patient and excited to see what's in store :) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:22, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
::Still being worked on. We need to get the skins back in place, and there are other glitches to fix, but the wiki has been upgraded. Notice that the buttons are back. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:23, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
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== Speculation ==<br />
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Poking around the wiki, I think that there are a few too many places where personal speculation makes its way into the articles. Now there's speculation that I think is OK and speculation that I think doesn't belong here. Speculation that I think is OK is speculation that's based on established real world or Gargoyles universe fact. For example, since we know that gargoyle children generally receive physical characteristics from both parents, often favoring the appearance of the same gender parent and the coloration of the opposite gender parent, it would be fair to speculated that children of know gargoyle couples will probably resemble both of their parents, possibly even in that pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Artus will definitely look like a lavender Broadway, but the suggestion that he might have some of Broadway's physical features and Angela's coloring would be OK. If we didn't know that Elisa was going to be dead by 2198, I would consider it fair to say that she probably would be, given that she would be 230 years old by that time, which is well beyond human life expectancy as we currently know it. Short of major scientific breakthroughs or magical intervention, it would be safe to say that Elisa would probably not be around in roughly two centuries. I think Greg Weisman speculation is also fair game. greg has suggested, but never outright confirmed, that Zafiro and the gargoyle beasts may both have vestigial limbs, Zafiro due to appearing to be four limbed and the beasts as an evolutionary leftover from their common ancestor with gargoyles. I feel no problem with putting that in as canon-in-training as a possibility rather than a certainty until we either have Greg say it's not so (leading to it being deleted) or see someone take x-rays a Zafiro and/or the beasts (leading to it becoming canon). What I'm not OK with is speculation that is based more on guesses or predictions of character's behavior. I took a section out of Zafiro's article that suggested that his hair coloration and facial features could be presumed to be fairly common among the Mayan clan. We don't have any way of knowing that. We apparently know from Greg as canon-in-training that Zafiro's snake-like body structure is very common, despite the fact that he is the only current member of the clan to have it. But for all we know, he could be the only gargoyle in the Mayan clan with white hair and a serpentine face. Similarly, I think there's too much assumption about future hatchlings and their knowledge of their biological parentage. It is OK to assume that Nashville will have a closer relationship with Brooklyn and Katana for a while at least because they will be the only adult gargoyles he spends the majority of his time with. But once Brooklyn and family return to Manhattan, who knows? He may become particularly close to Angela or Broadway or Lex as well. And we have no evidence that Brooklyn and Katana will teach him to put importance on biological parentage. Yes, when he starts asking questions, he'll probably either be aware that Brook and Katana are his biological parents. But if they place no importance on that, if they tell him "We are two of your parents and we love you, but you have other parents and other family out there and some day you will get to see them and they will be just as much your family", it won't matter so much to him that the rest of the clan isn't related to him by blood. Same deal with Angela. It's more tempting to assume that she'll put more emphasis on biology because she is so interested in her own parentage. But things could change. When Nashville arrives and she actually sees the rest of the clan start to parent him, she may start to feel differently about what communal parenting really means. I think it's highly likely that she might tell her kids that she's their biological mother before they necessarily ask (though it's still not something I would assume). But I just don't think we can assume how she'll be raising kids who have yet to be conceived.<br />
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Thoughts? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:47, 7 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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== Apocrypha ==<br />
At the head of any CIT article is a banner making it clear that's all it is. Shouldn't we have something similar for Apocrypha. To be clear, I think it's 100% appropriate for there to be articles here on, say, Dr. Phobos or Judge Bates, but shouldn't we have a (red?) flag of some kind at the top? -- gdw<br />
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:This problem has been raised at [[Talk:Angels in the Night]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:26, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::I'm glad this has come up again since the recent appearances of many of these apocrypha pages has beenn irking me. I like the idea a lot of a red flag banner at the top of such pages. I want this site to be about all things Gargoyles, including the non-canon stuff, but I think there needs to be a well seen line between the canon and the not canon, and that line is nearly invisible on pages like [[Dr. Phobos]] and [[Judge Bates]]. Frankly, I don't even like the apocyrpha sections on pages like [[Brooklyn]]. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:59, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::If you do this, I think you should only provide the banners for in-universe apocryphal articles, and not the out-of-universe articles (issues, episodes, the video-game, etc.). -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:59, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::Actually, [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]], I was thinking this was something you'd be better at then myself. I have no idea how to create a banner. And I think we would all trust your skills and judgement. I don't mean to seem like I'm assigning you this though, but if you want to do it at some point, that'd be cool. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:45, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::::To be honest, this is way down at the bottom of "things I plan to do". Way down. Since I'm not entirely settled on the idea anyway, I probably won't get round to it for a long while.<br />
:::::But making a banner isn't so hard. Have a look at the source code at [[Template:CIT article]], then just change the details a bit. You don't need to know what it all does (I don't), but you can figure out enough to get by. The text is easy to change, but you can also change the background (as long as you know the hex code of the colour you want) and other things. Then it's just a matter of tweaking until it looks the way you want it to. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:04, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::::I've created a [[Template:Apocrypha article]] and implemented it on some TGC character pages. It's not quite a banner, but let me know what you think. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 06:49, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I love it. Great job man! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I'm a little bit concerned that some people might not see it because it's so small and so far over to the right. But otherwise, I think it works quite well. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 09:37, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I've increased the width and the font size a small amount, so hopefully it should be a bit more noticeable. Better? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:48, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:::Yes. I hadn't realized that the banner hang out at the right edge of the window, regardless of size, so I withdraw my concern about it being too far to the right. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:31, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== Joining GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
Okay, we ''really'' need a mechanism set up by which new users can join GargWiki. If we're still concerned about spamming, then we should get a system that is completely disconnected: something like the Ask Greg comment room, but just for this... Or we could actually redirect users to the Ask Greg comment room. Get them to say 'I have registered as such-and-such, please allow me to edit GargWiki'. Or something. Would this be possible? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 07:13, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Could someone please attend to Antiyonder's request for editing powers? (I still feel like going through Station Eight is a pretty awkward way to go about this.) -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:36, 6 September 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:[[User:Dbdude01]] posted earlier today in the S8 Comment Room for editing privileges . . . from the Recent Changes page, looks like he registered on August 10th --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:20, 18 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
::Got it. Thanks, Pheon. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:29, 21 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
:::No prob, it's nice to see you around these parts as well man :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:19, 21 August 2015 (PDT) <br />
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== Family tree ==<br />
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Behold! A day and a half of my life wasted: [[User:Supermorff/Tree]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:That is very cool Great job, Supermorff. Hey, are you going to the Gathering this year? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:06, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Nice job! Do you think we could put it in an article with a text version that would allow people to easily get to the articles for all these individuals? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I had wanted to use the same templates as they use at Wikipedia (have a look, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Normandy#Family_tree), in which each box can contain arbitrary wiki markup (including links), but our current version of the MediaWiki software doesn't seem to support that. We could do another version with links, but plotting family trees in text alone is difficult and looks a bit rubbish if it's not done well. Might be worth a try though.<br />
::As for the Gathering, alas I will not be able to make it. My last year of university is wrapping up, and I have suspicions that two flights acros the Atlantic would not help me with revision. I could be wrong. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:29, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Another Character Page Idea==<br />
So, I'd say the Appearences sections on the character pages have been great and have really added to the information on this site. So, in response to the success of that section, I have another idea. Notable Quotes. Just take 1-5 quotes from a character and put them on the page if we want to. I was thinking making a new section called Notable Quotes and adding them there. I wouldn't want more than five or so, least it get cluttered. Another idea is putting a quote at the top of the character's page, but I feel that there is too much going on up there already. So, what do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:31, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Hmm. Maybe. I am skeptical. Couldn't we just link to [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles the ''Gargoyles'' page at Wikiquote]? On the Main Page maybe? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:21, 8 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==MediaWiki software update==<br />
Has there been any progress on updating the MediaWiki software that this site uses? I tried adding the possibility of collapsible tables. It didn't seem too complicated when I read how to do it, but it hasn't worked anyway, at least not as expected. I assume it's just not compatible with the version we've got. The current stable version of MediaWiki is 1.12, and we're still running 1.5. Time for an upgrade? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== image requests ==<br />
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:''Moved from [[GargWiki:Community Portal#Requested images]]''<br />
Hi, guys. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be fulfilling these image requests soon now that I have plenty of time on my hands. I hope to have them done by the weekend. Take care! [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 12:20, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
:Thanks DTaina! You rock!!! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Hey, guys. DT here. If you know of any articles that have low quality pics (such as VCR screenshots or logos), or if you just want more pics, don't hesitate to let me know so I can get to work. [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 17:25, 9 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Just a thought==<br />
So, I'm thinking of creating a [[Misconceptions and urban legends about Gargoyles]] page. Mostly as an answer to a lot of really wacky theories I've seen out there. Some, like ''"Gargoyles was originally an anime," "Disney hates Gargoyles and conspired to kill it," "Space-Spawn look like gargoyles," "The Gathering of the Gargoyles is always in Montreal," "Goliath embraced the human way in Mark of the Panther," "Lexington can't be gay because he went after Angela,"'' and so on and so forth. Thoughts? Suggestions? -{{unsigned|Greg Bishansky}}<br />
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:I like the page so far and the concept in general. I think we just need to figure out places we could link to it from so it's not just sitting there all by its lonesome. Possibilities include the Gargoyles TV series page and places in character or episode articles that mention these misconceptions. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14:38, 6 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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==Owen/Puck==<br />
Okay, so far, we've merged all alternate identities for characters into single entries. Molly and Banshee are now merged. Jon and John are now merged, etc. What do we do about Owen and Puck? I asked Greg his thoughts and even he thinks that one is not so clear cut. ''"It's a judgement call. I'd tend to combine them under a Puck/Owen Burnett entry with both the Puck and the Owen Burnett entries redirecting. But I think you should discuss it with the gwiki crew. Get a consensus."'' So, thoughts? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:I think it can go either way. I see no problem with having them in separate entries, but if you guys want to change it, then that's fine by me. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 17:55, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:It's a tough call. It would make sense to do the merge of aliases and alternate forms across the board. But the Puck/Owen thing just feels a little different. Aliases are fairly simple: you just pick the name that the character either had first or uses most frequently. "Dominique Destine" is just Demona's human alias. "Talon" is the name Derek Maza adopted after he was mutated, but his family still calls him "Derek." Alternate forms for one of Oberon's children are a little more difficult, but it seems that there's usually a primary identity we can all agree on, like with Banshee. And speaking of Banshee, her disguise was revealed in the same episode where she was introduced. The fact that Owen is Puck, of course, wasn't revealed until near the end of season two. And Puck is more dedicated to playing his role than any other fey we've seen with the possible exception of Titania (and even in that case, there isn't the marked difference in personality between Titania and Anastasia that there is between Owen and Puck). Owen almost is a separate person because Puck is committed to making him one. So should Owen retain a separate entry? And on a more practical note, would we be looking at an unusually long article if we merged the two or just less repetition? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 20:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I definitely think they should not be merged. As [[User:Demonskrye]] said, they are two totally different entities. I think it's fine as is.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:53, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
Also, I'm not too crazy about merging [[Titania]] and Anastasia Renard. It feels too confusing to me for appearances sections and so on...what about episodes like [[Walkabout]] where Anastasia appears but not Titania. Just my two cents.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I suppose if we are going to be consistent be have to merge them together. I mean with Talon/Derek, Jon/John the merger seems fairly easy and obvious and not very problematic. They are, afterall, the same person using alias'. With Oberon's Children, I wonder... PGFish makes a good point about appearances section issues. I dunno. The more I think about it, the tougher it seems. ultimately though, I feel we should be consistent. Puck and Owen are the same entity. Puck and Owen can't exist at the same time anymore than Derek and Talon can. So, I suppose I'd go for merging them. As for the Appearances Sections, I suppose we need to be consistent there as well and list all the episodes where either Puck or Owen (or any other alias' used by that entity) have appeared. It may be confusing, but simply remember that we are following the person, not the form of the person. Puck is always Puck, even when he is pretending to be Owen. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:47, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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Yes, but Puck isn't Puck when he's Owen. It's not simply an alias, but a seperate entity. When Owen is around, Puck doesn't exist.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 01:01, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:This is exactly the reason I have by-and-large been against merging aliases and alternate identities, because I knew this was where it was heading. I firmly believe that Puck and Owen should have separate pages.<br />
:Before I get down to my personal opinions, here are a few logistical facts:<br />
:1. The naming issue. You can't very well call the merged page "Owen Burnett", since Owen is an identity created by Puck. You can't call it "Puck" because Puck has appeared in just 4 episodes, compared to Owen's 30+. You also can't call the page "Puck/Owen" or similar, because this will create a subpage of "Puck", which is a redirect and it will wreak havoc with the MediaWiki software. So where do you stick a page like this?<br />
:2. Do we intend to merge the various sections as well? Will we merge the Appearances sections? If so, are we going to list appearances (As Puck) or (As Owen), which we've avoided in other cases? Will we just keep two separate Appearances sections? Will we merge the History sections, and mention "As Owen", or "As Puck" every other paragraphs? What's the point?<br />
:Now for my personal opinions: We don't ''gain'' anything by merging the two articles, except a heaping pile of confusion for new visitors. If I wanted to look for specific information on Puck, I would not look in Owen's article, so I fail to see the benefit in forcing me to look through a combined article for both characters. And yes, I do believe that they are separate characters, not just because they have different appearances, voice actors and personalities. They also have very different spheres of influence in the ''Gargoyles'' universe - spheres which only overlap at young Alex.<br />
:Something to consider when comparing this to other examples: The once-separate identities of Anastasia and Titania have now mostly been combined. Does anyone expect that Anastasia will ever appear again, with no mention of Titania? And yet Owen continues to appear without mention that he is Puck. I wouldn't (in all honesty) be surprised if Puck appeared without mention that he was Owen. So those two situations are not really comparable.<br />
:Also, whereas Anastasia and Titania were written (and cast) with the knowledge that it would be revealed that they were the same person. It wasn't until "The Mirror" was already written that the writers realised that Owen and Puck were the same person. In all the other cases that we've merged, there has never really been any doubt that the two characters/names/identities were always supposed to be "the same". With Owen and Puck, they were initially different and later combined (obviously it made perfect sense and worked beautifully, but that's not the point).<br />
:My final thought: Consistency, which is all fine and dandy, is a secondary consideration to making the best, clearest and most helpful encyclopedia that we can. We don't need to minimize the number of articles we've got, and this isn't Wikipedia in which we'd need to merge all similar characters just so they're notable enough to be mentioned at all. Merging in ''this'' case is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:On a separate-but-related note, the Owen article is woefully short. More than half of the History section is actually about Puck, which could well be causing some of the confusion. We should expand the history section - give specific examples of Owen doing his job (keeping Elisa out in "The Edge", pulling a gun in "Enter Macbeth", taking the swab in "Double Jeopardy", summoning the commandoes in "Masque" and "Bash"). Some parts of the Characteristics section (such as his turning to stone by Demona, and his gaining a stone hand) should be mentioned in the History section in their proper context. We should mention that he's good at judo. We should add the anecdote about Owen being written with some unknown secret in his backstory, and then say how Greg and several other writers ''realized'', simultaneously and separately, that Owen and Puck were the same person. We should re-word the opening paragraph, so that Owen seems to be a character in his own right and not just some alias used by Puck, because he's more than that, and we should treat him as such. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::Okay, after reading what Supermorff had to say, I want to change my vote. I think Owen and Puck should remain seperate. I think I know how to work this all out. I think alias' should be merged so Dominique Destine should be with Demona, John Castaway and Jon Canmore should be the same page, Talon and Derek, etc. These are the exact same person using different names and perhaps looking or acting different, but they are not new people. Meanwhile, alternate identities should remain seperate because they are two different people. <br />
::So, alias' merge, alternate identities remain seperate. What do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:23, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:::I agree with Supermorff 100%, too. You guys have my vote! [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:29, 13 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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== Young character pictures ==<br />
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Recently a lot of pictures have been added of younger versions of several characters. These picures look great, and thanks both to GregW for suggesting the idea and DTaina for doing the hard work and providing them all! However, I would like to suggest that some of them be re-labelled to include either the age of the character or the year being depicted. So [[Princess Katharine]] is the best way of doing it (by the way, we need a young one of her too), but many others are less clear (I'm not sure why, but [[Bodhe]] seems like a particularly bad offender to me). Anyone agree? Disagree? Like pancakes? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:30, 16 January 2009 (CST)<br />
:Makes sense to me.--[[User:Gweisman|Gweisman]] 01:42, 17 January 2009 (CST)<br />
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==A Scottish Family Tree==<br />
So, I unfortunately lack the photoshop skills, but I want to make a Family Tree of the Scottish royal family for the wiki. From [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] all the way down to [[Luach]] and [[Canmore]]. Anyone up for it? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 23:01, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:I was just pondering that this afternoon, actually. I'd suggest using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Familytree The end result then supports hyperlinks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_family#Family_tree I can do it, but not until after the Gathering. I'd have to import additional templates too. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 23:16, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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::This has already been done! [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] has already made one [[User:Supermorff/Tree|here]]. It could perhaps use some updating given the new information, however. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 16:12, 15 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:::I'm willing to update this and format it into a [[Scottish Royalty]] page or something, if Supermorff doesn't mind. But I'll need the original code. The family trees I've found are image files. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 22:53, 30 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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::::When I started doing this (a very ''very'' ling time ago), I wanted to create the Familytree template here. However, I think we have out-of-date MediaWiki software on this site, so all I could do was produce the sourcecode and copy the picture from another wiki. The sourcecode is all listed on that page Matt linked to, but it won't work here. If you could make it work, I'd love to see it on its own page! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:31, 25 December 2009 (CST)<br />
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==Things of a more... "adult" nature==<br />
So, thanks to Blue Mug-A-Guests at various Gatherings, and occasional tidbits at Ask Greg, I'm wondering, do we stick any of this into the GargWiki? We always said we'd be all encompassing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:15, 13 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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:Can we provide sources for it? Stuff at AskGreg is fair game, but I'm hesitant to add things directly from Blue Mug-a-Guests unless someone posted about it at AskGreg, thus giving Greg a chance to correct or whatever.<br />
:It being of adult nature doesn't bother me at all. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:10, 14 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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::Well, I started with a tiny one in Demona's entry, just to see how well it goes over. Maybe if it's not too awkward, we can add more where appropriate. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:59, 26 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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And here's some bits from the Blue Mug, not sure where to put them in the entries, but I thought we'd keep them here for info. A bit of it is off. Greg never said Lex and Staghart would have sex, for example. And Jackal and Hyena are NOT having incestuous sex; they'll share someone, but Jackal isn't weird enough for Hyena. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 08:27, 10 July 2014 (PDT)<br />
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[[Image:BM1.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM2.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM3.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
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==Weapons==<br />
So, DTaina had a great idea about putting together entries for weapons. Kinda like what we did for [[Exo-Frame]]. Still trying to think of how we'd do it. Obviously, particle beams need an entry. Demona's various big fucking guns could get an entry. I'd love it to be [[Demona's Big Fucking Guns]] but I won't fight for it ;) --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:40, 20 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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==New Screenshots==<br />
You may have noticed some screenshots getting replaced by higher quality PNG files. Well, recently DTaina and I downloaded the latter half of season two in German. The quality of the video and picture is beautiful. DVD quality even. Much better than the ToonDisney and Jetix versions we've been using. So, for characters that popped up in episodes not on DVD, we'll be replacing their images with high quality PNG files. This will be a timely process, I think. But worth it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 14:49, 16 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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:Already noticing the improvement! Nice work! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:45, 17 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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== Images ==<br />
<br />
I see lots of [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|unused images]] on the database. May I delete them, or do you guys prefer to stow images for later use? Also, I'd like to categorize images using a simple template I usually customize for each wiki in which I'm most active. Upon community approval, this would also be dependent of us having parser function work. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 07:06, 14 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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:You just linked to the uncategorised files. Unused files are [[Special:UnusedFiles|here]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 00:28, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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::Doh. That's what I meant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 02:13, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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==Criteria for "Non-Canon" Art by Canon Artists==<br />
Since this issue just hit the fan, maybe it's time we really discussed this, and came up with official rules. I think a MAIN PIC needs to show the character off as best we can. If Greg Guler or Frank Paur were releasing art of characters, I'd be all for including them also. In other words, I want those pics up, so let's revise these rules. Here is what I'm thinking:<br />
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Unofficial art by official artists is welcome on GargWiki. Encouraged even. But there should be certain criteria. Depicting a canon character is perfect. Depicting a non-canon scene is not allowed. For example, we have two main pics from Karine Charlebois. One depicting Katana and one depicting the Redemption Squad. Both are terrific and fit the proposed criteria perfectly. However, art of, let's say for example, Katana fighting Hakon even by an official artist like Charlebois or Paur, cannot be used because such a thing hasn't taken place in canon.<br />
<br />
Karine also has beautiful art of Brooklyn up, with everything we've seen since the end of "[[Phoenix]]." Except for the eye-patch. And since we don't know when he received his injury relative to when he received all his weapons and the armor, that art would not meet our criteria.<br />
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What do you all think? Thoughts? Suggestions? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 10:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I vote for canon pics. I feel that the purity of the canon material is more important than whether or not it looks good. Take Wikipedia for example. How many articles have you seen with grainy and badly drawn pictures of TV show characters, even though higher quality fanart pictures have always been available? We can have character models that were drawn behind the scenes. And we can have fanart here and there, but it shouldn't dominate the canon material. For me, canon and CiT should be above everything. And you guys can always count on me to touch up canon screenshots or scans that look a little sub par. What do you guys think? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:04, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::Taina, I think you missed what was being said. We're discussing revising the rules, with a VERY STRICT criteria to allow us to use the best resources we have. And as for wikipedia... I think it is a TERRIBLE website full of misinformation that is dumbing us down as a culture, and I refuse to use them as an authority on anything. And [http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality|Stephen Colbert agrees with me] ;)--[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:11, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::I'd revise the rules to never let fanart take the top spot. As a fan artist myself, I think I know where I'm coming from on this. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:24, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::::Yes, but you aren't a canon artist doing a fan-art, really the only ones who can respond to this with weight are Karine, Greg Guler, Frank Paur, Chris Jones, and anyone else who worked on the designs in the show/comic. For my part, I can see both sides of the argument, and have remained relatively neutral in these proceedings, however, if I am to cast a vote, I vote with in favor of GregXB's proposal providing that all of the safeguards and requirements he has requested are strictly enforced. --[[User:Griffinwyrm7|Griffinwyrm7]] 11:32, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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: Perhaps if the non-canon pics included some form of disclaimer identifying them as such in the captions? I'm not opposed to revising the rules, provided whatever rule we do eventually decide on is both clear and unambiguous. [[User:Algernon|Algernon]] 12:03, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:: I agree with Greg that we should attempt to use the best picture available. But to me, the best picture available will always be canon over non-canon (or CiT) by default. Greg, I had the same thought about Karine's Brooklyn art in regards to the eye patch and armor and stuff and you should be able to see that by the same logic we cannot include the Katana picture. We have never seen Katana and the Phoenix together. I admit, I'm sure she has seen it plenty, but in the canon it has yet to happen. Therefore, by your own logic, the Katana picture isn't canon and shouldn't be allowed. But regardless of whether you accept that argument or not, the majority seems to be against the picture as the main pic, but fine with the compromose of having it lower on the page. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 14:58, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::Matt, no offense, but you are reaching so far, I want to ask you how the food in China is tasting. And what majority? There are three in favor of the pic... and who knows who else is going to come in to vote. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Matt: If I read you correctly, your comment actually supports Greg's proposal. Greg said that we know Brooklyn will receive his injury and his gear, but not when. By the same logic, we know that Katana will someday travel with Brooklyn by way of the Phoenix, but not when. Unless Greg Weisman joins Scientology or something else that might severely distort the master plan, we know it's going to happen. So I don't see any harm in Karine's Katana pic. If someday we get more canon Gargoyles in some form and a better pic of Katana comes along, I would be in favor of using that pic instead. But right now, I think Karine's is the best we have. --[[User:Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
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:::Except that it isn't canon. The fact that it is or isn't a superior pic is irrelevant. The quality of the picture is not the point. The point is that this site has always been about putting canon first, then CiT, then apocrypha. Bishansky has been one of the strongest supporters of this policy. It is only when that policy conflicts with his personal desires that he decides that a discussion needs to be had about the matter. At best, Karine's Katana picture only qualifies as CiT and the canon picture should take precedence.<br />
:::Look, Greg, this is a wiki. If you want your own Gargoyles site where you can do whatever you want regardless of what others think, that's fine. But don't try to hijack this site for that purpose. The community-based nature of this site means that we don't all always get our way. For instance, I HATE the negative and immature "reviews" of various apocrypha elements (specifically some TGC episodes) and I am greatly annoyed by the subjective statements, stupid captions, crude jokes and other unproffesional edits that litter many of the pages on this wiki. And I know I am not alone or even in the minority on a lot of it. But I choose my battles because this isn't my site. And it isn't yours either. It is a work of the all the contributors. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:29, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::::Matt, was there really a need to get this personal? Really. Yes, this is a community. Look at all the people here discussing this issue. I didn't just change the rules willy nilly. I called for an official discussion on this, and made a proposal. A proposal that we are discussing and voting on already. Yes, it was a little inappropriate to make that remark about how far you're reaching, I get that. But you had to get really personal. So stop accusing me of being Sauron. Were I Sauron, I'd have blocked everyone and done what I wanted, but no... I wanted to have an actual discussion and vote. And from the looks of things, you don't have the majority you were boasting about. Hell, we even had Katana's designer, Robby Bevard, another canon artist, come in and say the one in the comic is off model. If you have personal issues with me, you have my e-mail address. For the record, I have no personal issues with you. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Matt: Do you specifically know someone who likes the Goliath Chronicles? If you do, please invite them to defend their opinions here. And I would also like to add that I wrote a very unflattering article about the Assassin on this wiki, which someone edited. And I respected that, because my opinions on the Assassin exist on other sites. But what is being suggested here does not seem unflattering. --[Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
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I designed Katana, and colored the issue she appeared in. Ben Dunn was incredibly off model in many, many respects, (The world will never know just how much I had to redraw, and how much more I wished I had time for...) and had no knowledge of the series, he was ONLY brought on because deadlines needed to be met. As it is, I redrew half the pages Katana appeared on anyway and had to add all the weapons on Brooklyn. It was NOT the optimal art. If I'd had more time before the deadline, or the artist had been more open to redrawing pages, she'd be closer to on model and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion in the first place. I'd say use the cleaner full body shot by a different artist that worked on the books. Deadlines are the bane of this sort of thing... Didn't Enter Macbeth have retakes done? Didn't Vows have its ending changed after the first airing? Didn't the mutates all get complete redesigns after their first appearance? I'd say, at the very least, have the professional full body shot (by one of the folks that worked on the comic!) available on the wiki for viewing, even if its not the first and foremost pic.--[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 17:56, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I agree that Karine's art can stay, but it shouldn't be the foremost pic. It should be canon and CiT first, right? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:02, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Makes sense to me. I hate the final product as it appeared in the book for a variety of reasons, but... canon should be first. Maybe it can be really small. As is, I've always assumed that Katana will have some sort of redesign or tweaking anyway whenever she next appears in some form of media. Since the final art really was not good or ideal. --[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 18:17, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::I'm glad you agree Robby. And thanks for all your hard work, by the way.<br />
::As far as I can tell, no one has suggested that Karine's picture be completely taken off the site. Everyone seems to be alright with it being on Katana's page somewhere. It really just comes down to some of us prefering quality over canon and some of us prefering canon over quality. Obviously, I'm in the latter group.<br />
::As for the TGC pages. There are fans who like TGC. I'm not one of them, but that isn't the point. The point is that those pages take this site down a lot in my opinion. Most of us strive to make this site professional and objective and canon-centered and those pages make the site seem like a joke. And most of us are not laughing. That is my opinion, of course. I'd prefer to do away with all the nonsense myself, but I'm content to only worry about the canon and CiT material and resign myself to the fact that others will use this site to attack Gargoyles apocryphal material they didn't like.<br />
::Which brings me back to Katana. As a canon page with a depicted canon character I feel we should focus on her canon appearence. For good or ill, the canon picture is the canon picture for now and nothing is going to change that. If Karine (or whomever) produces a better quality CANON picture down the road, I'd love to replace the current canon picture with the new one. But until that point, what we have is what we have.<br />
::Or perhaps we should enlist Karine or other canon artists in re-drawing all the art we don't like into non-canon portraits and landscapes for use as canon material. Please. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 18:23, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
:::Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen. I'm fine with fixing up little animation errors, editing out grain and logos... but it has to stop somewhere. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:30, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::So recap -- this is really TWO issues in one -- 1) Do we allow unofficial art by official artists on GargWiki? AND 2) Would an unofficial piece of art be OK to take the main focus of the article, in particular, in cases when Canon material is ''also'' available (especially when the quality of the two works is being considered). The first issue is clearly the most non-controversial -- Everyone seems loves Karine's work on Katana, myself included (and that's not to mentioning her other unofficial work featured in the [[Dingo]], [[Redemption Squad]] and [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns]] pages). In my eye, the precedence of unofficial art by official artists is what allows us to have CIT to ''begin with'' -- Greg Weisman's own continued and unofficial work as creator of the show. As for the second issue, I give my vote for Canon material before CIT and anything else unofficial (this is why Apocrypha is located at the bottom of a character's page and why CIT is tagged at the top of the page or marked in {{CIT|blue type}} . . . but that doesn't mean that the unofficial work by the official artists can't be included in the Wiki. Just trying to clear things up a bit while adding my own two cents --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:36, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Tallying it all up, okay, I lost. Cool. That's democracy. We had an official discussion, and for now, I lost it. That's what democracy is. Good thing I don't throw my weight around here and behave like a dictator like certain people like to insinuate, and then not apologize when they get called on it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:Based on the outcome of this discussion, I've swapped back the positions of the Katana images so that the canon image appears first. (This seems to have slightly mucked up the position of the other images on the page, so if someone can figure out how to fix that please do - I'm sure this has changed since we upgraded wiki software.)<br />
:Robby, your comments about the process and the final artwork are very interesting. Would you be opposed to having them on the relevant wiki articles? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:59, 20 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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==JEB's Resignation==<br />
JEB recently resigned as our administrator. Of course we here at GargWiki thank him for getting this site started and for doing as much as he did since it's inception... which was quite a bit behind the scenes. How ever, we need another admin to become the primary point of contact for technical or administrative issues from this point forward. Scott Sakai (who runs the server with Gorebash) can take care of the patching and other server-side activities. However, someone else would need to take care of the administrative tasks (i.e. everything else that is done through the web interface). I would do it, but I have no idea how. So, is anyone interested in the position? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:47, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:I also have no idea how. I doubt any of the regular editors know how. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:21, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::No idea here either. I was gonna recommend Supermorff! Guess not. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:03, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yeah, my first instincts said Supermorff too. Hmm, anyone else? I think Thogial has some wiki experience. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:17, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I've left Thogial a message about it. If he can't do it, I'm willing to learn. (Although I'll be busy for the next three weeks or so. After that, I'll be willing to learn.) -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:41, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I'm afraid I'm not the guy. I do have wiki experience; I know my way around CSS, though I'm (almost) totally ignorant of Javascript. However, I'm not entirely sure my experience would address the needs of this site... At Wikia we run wikis via CSS and JS, but here I gather it's more like a web hosting forum site (web interface and whatnot) and I've never done that. You're looking for someone who knows how to solve problems when they occur--not someone who needs to learn how to do it first. For instance, I have no clue on how to solve the software issue we've had since you moved the site...<br />
:::::On the other hand, if we can't find a suitable replacement, then the best alternative would be something as per Supermorff's suggestion: we round up three or four members to chime in and learn who to do it, intuitively or otherwise. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 05:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Hi, JEB here. I really don't think it should be that hard to replace me on the web side of the wiki; anyone who's had wiki and admin experience (like most of you above) should be able to do it after a quick review of the options on Special Pages. There's also plenty of advice on operating Mediawiki wikis on the web. Whoever steps up to the plate, I thank him and wish him well. [[User:Jeb|Jeb]] 14:09, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:Hey, Jeb. Well if that's the case, then I'd be happy to lend a hand. But not alone. Must this be a one man's job? Because I'd feel more comfortable with some backup... Supermorff? If we can share the load, I'm game. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 15:03, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:I could try my best to learn also. So, what do you say? Supermoff, Thogial, and I sharing the load? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::The more the merrier. Since you two have been here the longest, I'll be L-3. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Woot! I get to be Vandal Savage! ... and shadows still conceal our light! -[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I get to be nigh immortal and with an army of assassins at my disposal. Supermorff gets to be bald. :p -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:53, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::No, L-3 is bald, that's you. I get the army of assassins and a name that is constantly mispronounced. More than happy to help out here too, though. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:15, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Oh crap, that's right. Oh well, I get the hot assistant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 03:47, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Well, you three have my vote -- JEB, thanks for everything you've done for the GargWiki (especially since its probably stuff I'll never fully realize) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
''*Face scrambling mode: ON.*'' So, what's the situation regarding this matter? --[[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 09:08, 4 April 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Apocrypha appearances==<br />
A friend mentioned on Facebook: ''"So the GargWiki doesn't list characters' episode appearances from the third season. That's decidedly unhelpful regardless of whether or not it's canon."'' He was looking for Fox's TGC appearances. While this is not unreasonable, the Appearances section on the character pages is designed for canon only. And then what, do we log all the Marvel Comic appearances? All the Disney Adventures comic appearances? I'm not against it, but this is something that will need to be discussed, researched, because it would be a large project. I definitely don't want it incorporated into the main appearances section on each page, though. And, to be honest, I don't want to be the one to do this. The last thing I want to do is re-visit TGC. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:52, 6 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:While i think it is great that this Wiki has always been home to all things "Gargoyles" I think it is pretty clear that we are strongly biased to the canon. So for this to go down I'd suggest one or both of two things. 1. Make a seperate appearances section within the apocrypha sections of each characters page listing what apocrypha episodes/issues they appeared in and 2. Make an appearance list on each apocrypha page saying who was in the TGC episode or Marvel issue. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:58, 7 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Archmage's time loop ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
Hi, everyone. So it's that time of the year when I binge re-watch ''Gargoyles'' and I am up to the "Avalon" three-parter. As always I tried to make sense of the Archmage's time loop, but to no avail, but this time I decided to make some research. I found [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/faq20.htm this] long reply from GW and a few short ones [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12991] [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13167] that helped some. For me, Griff's time loop was always easier to understand than the Archmage's, maybe because the latter involved both of his selves, while the former involves a [[Goliath|third party]]. I was never at any convention, so I never saw GW explaining the loop with a diagram, so I made my own from what I understand of the loop and GW's explanations. Am I close? Does anyone have any comments/explanations? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 16:36, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Awesome diagram, Thogial! Yep, visually, that looks pretty darn accurate to how Greg's typically described it (and how I, at the least, always made sense out of it). That said, while I see it in the arrow's paths, the diagram could probably still use some written explanation that the Enhanced Archmage (that led the proto-Archmage through time), following his younger self (now enhanced)'s departure back to 984, goes on to attack Oberon's Palace. Maybe even include his death in 1995, if there's room. In any event, the final version has to go on [[Archmage|his]] page, as well as "[[Avalon Part Two|Avalon]]" Part Two page --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:56, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::How's that? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 06:19, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::<nowiki>**thumbs up**</nowiki> Seriously, great work Thogial :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:16, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
::::Thanks. :) I took the liberty of putting some dissertation around it. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 11:30, 19 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Canon is coming ==<br />
So, here's the question... how long should we wait before adding spoilers to the GargWiki? Obviously, we can edit the new issues' pages right away, but... do we update character entries at once, or should we give it a few days to a week? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:If memory serves right, I felt we added spoiler content to the wiki pretty quickly -- issue pages, characters, objects, etc . . . not to mention converting CIT to Canon and adding new canon-in-training when reasonable, but those edits were usually tagged as containing spoiler content in the edit summary/notes. Invisible Spoiler tags were the etiquette and expectation for Station 8 reviews and discussions. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:05, 9 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Appearances ==<br />
<br />
Okay, I've got two thoughts here. We've got another spin-off coming, "Gargoyles: Dark Ages" and how do we want to deal with this in the Appearances sections on character pages? Should we leave it as is, and add the appearance in the order the issue comes out... or should we undertake the big project of dividing the Appearances sections on character pages into different series? For example: "Appearances in Gargoyles", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Bad Guys", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Dark Ages"? Someone like Demona appears in all three, for example. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I would personally prefer we keep the style we adopted with ''[[Gargoyles: Bad Guys]]'' -- Dividing up the appearances doesn't seem consistent to the intentions of the wiki. Best case, it amounts to a lot of rearranging, and worst case it could leave the impression that the main comic (or the original series) has more weight than the rest (which I can comfortably suspect is not the opinion of anyone here). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:43, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::That makes sense, because then why not have a Goliath Chronicles appearances section? Or Marvel and Disney Adventures? But I am open to a counterargument. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:55, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::With all canon material I think we should list appearances in order of official release of the media. So if a character appears in Gargoyles Chapter 7, then Dark Ages Chapter 1, then Gargoyles Chapter 8, we will list their appearances in that order. My two cents, of course. If we want to put TGC, marvel comic book material, etc in an appearances list in the apocrypha section, thats fine, but I generally don't care about non-canon stuff. Should be its own thing though. [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 12:54, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::It has been noted elsewhere that while the editors on this wiki cover all things related to ''Gargoyles'', our preferred interest historically prioritizes canon and {{CIT|canon-in-training}}. I'd opt also for establishing a precedent for an appearances subsection under a character's Apocrypha section. [[Demona]] is probably the best example of possibilities, with multiple non-canonical appearances on screen, page, stage, and device(? I'm thinking video games here, which, for the Demona page specifically, looks like it needs some toggling anyhow). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 12:59, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::::The Demona page might be our second biggest page outside of the timeline. And maybe it does need to be broken up in places. For example, look at all the Megatron pages on TFWiki: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Megatron_(G1) . But I agree, let's leave the Appearance section as is. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 13:11, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
OH! Apologies, I should have mentioned this earlier. One change I have made in the Appearances section a month or so back, each column now has a cap of twenty-five titles. Once we hit twenty-five, we start a new column. We can increase or decrease this, but I'd like it uniform. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 08:48, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Sounds good to me. Hopefully, we eventually have to tackle the problem of too many columns! [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 09:28, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Releases ==<br />
<br />
So, at what point is something no longer a "new release" (boy, I love that we're now asking this question). Right now, I'm operating on a year, but is that too much? For example, NECA Hudson was released last September; that's nine months. Is it still new? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:12, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
: For NECA, I'm undecided, but for the comics (of which, anectodally, my local shop currently only has leftovers of "A Little Crazy" still on the shelves), I was figuring we take the first six off the New Release list once the first trade debuts. And, no idea what the traffic is here, but I haven't plugged the trade on the Coming Soon section so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing those first six issues. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 11:06, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Thinking about names like a human==<br />
In recognizing that we will be inundated with placeholder-names for the various gargoyle characters from ''Dark Ages'', and seeing some inconsistency pop up across the wiki (and occasionally on the same page), I wanted to bring up an idea to standardize our approach. <br />
<br />
While we certainly want to continue prioritizing canonical names like Coldstone and Coldfire to Othello and Desdemona, for all intents and purposes, the characters we refer to as Second, Sacrifice, and Verity will never (barring time travel) have a true name in any canon work. So I do find it a bit silly to keep throwing quotes around their placeholder-names when nothing more concrete (pun somewhat intended) is anticipated.<br />
<br />
Any edits I've made quoting a character's placeholder/behind-the-scenes name have been made when we've no real other way to distinguish them from names a character gave to themselves or were received by others in the series. Names like True and Hyppolyta certainly aren't apocryphal, but it's a flavor of non-canon that can’t ever really ''become'' canon, so the canon-in-training template doesn't fit. <br />
<br />
BUT, inspired by our ever-helpful CIT template, I whipped up and tinkered with (in previews mode), a different-colored template for characters that had no true name. In essence, the placeholder-name would be bolded in gray type. This color choice can be adjusted of course, but the idea is that whatever color chosen and settled on (if we did go this route) would not jar too much from the white text and contrast well enough from the blue backgrounds and bluer-CIT type. (I also liked the gray because a passive, stony-looking color fit well opposite to that of an actively used name.) <br />
<br />
I've also included a hover text that gets highlighted when a cursor is over the name: '''"This is not the character's true name."''' That phrasing can also be tinkered with, but it does work for situations ranging from Iago (in the credits) to Kermit (only in the script). (More on Mentor & Angel below.)<br />
<br />
At the moment, I've tinkered the template tag with the name NoTrueName, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. NoNames or something pithier could be hashed out later.<br />
<br />
To sum up, in the overall desire that we have a consensus for being consistent one way or another, our options for writing articles with characters that are lacking true names include:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Option 1''', no quotes, no nothing for placeholder names (but to the uninitiated, this can be misleading).<br />
:For the next twenty-three years Second and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 2''', consistent quotes for placeholder-names.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years “Second” and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 3''', tag the character’s placeholder name with the new template.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years <span title="This is not the character's true name." style="cursor:help; color:#999999; font-weight:bold">Second</span> and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now, I think it is best to also remember that there is a distinction to consider between <nowiki>'</nowiki>names<nowiki>'</nowiki> like Mentor and Angel that do have SOME canonical association (Coldstone to Hudson and Goliath to Demona), whereas names like Schnozz, Brooksbro, and Kermit are really only for scripting purposes. That’s why I would be ok with not quoting or tagging Mentor and Angel with the potential-new template (I’ve noticed we don’t quote Gargoyle of the Sword for Brooklyn).<br />
<br />
I know that's a lot, and some options would require more overhaul across the wiki than others, but I’d love to hear what others think. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm okay with whatever the team decides. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:11, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you brought this up. It was already feeling inconsistent and messy and was only going to get worse. My vote would be option 2. If the name is purely a placeholder for an unnamed character we use quotations. Always. Maybe even in the title for the respective page. And the quotes should be explained in the header. Mentor and Angel can use those names until the switch to Hudson and Demona, and it should be "Othello" until he receives the name Coldstone. Just my thoughts. I'm not stuck on it. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 18:15, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::That would be my preference as well. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 21:32, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, so consistent quotes for '''all''' placeholder-names. On the subject of in-universe non-names likes Mentor and Angel and Gargoyle of the Sword, I agree we use them in their proper context (before they are Hudson and Demona, and in Brooklyn's case I see that handle usually on the pages of characters in 997 that wouldn't know his name), but I want us all to be on the same page. Do we use quotes for those names too? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 21:40, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I say no quotes on Angel, Mentor, etc. since they are used in-universe. Thoughts on changing the name of pages from Sacrifice to "Sacrifice"? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 06:13, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Okie doke, no quotes for in-universe non-names. And for characters that will, in all likelihood, never have a canonical name, yes, let's change those page names. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Works for me. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 12:35, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I've done the moves for every 10th century Wyvern gargoyle without a true name save for Hyppolyta and Antiope. We have at least one unknown character (for now) naming gargoyles after historical and legendary figures in the prose story, and I'm preferring being patient in Hyppolyta's case. If anyone feels this caution is unneeded, we can move that page too with one with quotes. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I'm sure there are pages that haven't been adjusted yet that we'll spot in the meantime, but I just wanted to quickly note some quirks this new standard will bring us. For one, I really don't love seeing a apostrophe used next to a character's name that's been quoted, so I rewrote a couple sentences ("Kermit"'s page had a hard one). Also, I saw on the timeline that when Puck was impersonating "Goliath" in "Possession", we used quotes that date's entry. So that kind of nuance can get tricky. I don't know. I still prefer that we have a system that makes sense to all of us, and if those nitpicks I mention don't bother anyone else, then I'm fine with what we have. If they are some cause for concern or query, then I leave this comment for food for thought if we did want to readress and/or adjust course a bit before the next ''Dark Ages'' comic comes out.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::I agree, we definitely need a uniform system. I'm not sure what my preference is, but whatever the group decides, I'm down with it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:10, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Great job, Phoen! All looking really good. As for the "Goliath" issue, maybe we could just do something like [[Puck|Puck (As Goliath)]] or something so that it isn't the same system as the quotations. Or we just leave it as this is a special case. Like Greg, I'm open to whatever. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 07:25, 25 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
With new canon, and this renaissance of GARGOYLES taking place, it's time for us to really modernize this thing. I am no computer programmer or wiki programmer, but I know someone who is interested in overhauling the visuals of the GargWiki. But what we also need to do is update our episode summaries. A lot of great people have done a lot of hard work here, but we're lacking in the episode and comic book synopsis department. Take a look at the [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Young_Justice_Wiki Young Justice Wiki], look at their episode and comic book synopsis's... it's a real reference site. So are we, but the bar has been raised and I think we need to meet it. Something the fandom can use, something the people bringing us new official stories can use. A brief summary of main plot and subplot is not a clear and clean exposition of the plot. Right now story points are often glossed over or left unmentioned or taken out of context. So let's make this something we can truly build, we don't need to get it done over night... but something we can slowly chip away at. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:38, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Hello. Here at GregX’s request. It’s going to take me some time to get back up to speed on wiki editing, but I’m willing to help. Do we want to make a list of high priority episodes/issues that we should start with? Stuff that might be particularly relevant for what’s happening in the comics right not? Or maybe just a list of everything that needs to be done that can be consulted and checked off as we go? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] ([[User talk:Demonskrye|talk]]) 08:53, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Great to see you back! Well, I just took care of the synopsis for [[The Edge]]. I don't think we need to overthink things at this point. Let's start small, make sure we have the format down and then go from there. We can make a check list, volunteer for specific episodes. And of course keep each other in the loop if life happens and we can't tackle it and someone else might like to. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:[[Thrill of the Hunt|"Thrill of the Hunt"]], [[Temptation|"Temptation"]], and [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] all look like viable examples to model for other episode pages. At the least, providing a more detailed three-act breakdown will help compensate for the fact that ''Gargoyles'' doesn't usually have timestamps that the YJ Wiki can depend on as reference. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I'm looking at you, Stone of Destiny arc, lol. You have timestamps up to the brim! d: --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:48, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Demonskrye did a fantastic job with those. I intend to get started soon. Maybe I'll start with "The Edge". --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::If no one minds, I can take a crack with "Upgrade" -- I can at least coordinate with the upcoming ''Voices From the Eyrie'' (not to worry, I wouldn't make this a monthly endeavor) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::Please do. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 04:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:All right, I just added the "skeleton" (three acts and such) to each canonical episode entry. My way of making our statement of intent, and I plan to get started very soon. And, on top of that, Demonskrye's synopsis for "Temptation" is the perfect model. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 05:21, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Oooh, I just thought of something; perhaps, when an episode has one at the end, we can include an additional section after Act Three dubbed the 'Xanatos Tag'. We've long had it on the to-do list here on the Community Portal, and pointing out how that played out in the various episodes (especially when another character subverts the expectation) might be the natural fit that hasn't been found elsewhere on the GargWiki -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 06:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's the master list. Feel free to update with ones you plan to do and ones that were done. Also, when you claim an episode page to work on, please date it and sign it with '''<nowiki>{{CIT|Claimed by ~~~~}}</nowiki>''' <br />
<br />
{| style="width:100%"<br />
|<br />
'''Season 1 episodes''' – ('''13/13 Complete''') <br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
<br />
'''Season 2 episodes''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">29/52 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|09/52 Claimed}} | '''14/52 Complete''')<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]]<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 02:35, 7 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Shadows of the Past|"Shadows of the Past"]]<br />
# [[Heritage|"Heritage"]]<br />
# [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]]<br />
# [[Monsters|"Monsters"]]<br />
# [[Golem (episode)|"Golem"]]<br />
# [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[M.I.A.|"M.I.A."]] - {{CIT|Chip plans to do it.}}<br />
# [[Grief|"Grief"]]<br />
# [[The Hound of Ulster|"The Hound of Ulster"]]<br />
# [[Walkabout|"Walkabout"]]<br />
# [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]]<br />
# [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]]<br />
# [[The New Olympians|"The New Olympians"]]<br />
# [[The Green|"The Green"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Sentinel (episode)|"Sentinel"]]<br />
# [[Bushido (episode)|"Bushido"]]<br />
# [[Cloud Fathers (episode)|"Cloud Fathers"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 23:34, 2 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Ill Met By Moonlight|"Ill Met By Moonlight"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:38, 28 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]<br />
# [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Vendettas|"Vendettas"]]<br />
# [[Turf|"Turf"]]<br />
# [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]]<br />
# [[Possession|"Possession"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part One|"Hunter's Moon" Part One]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Two|"Hunter's Moon" Part Two]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
|<br />
'''Gargoyles: Clan-Building''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">12/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
# [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
# [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]]<br />
# [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
# [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
# [[Reunion|"Reunion"]] <br />
# [[The Rock|"The Rock"]] - {{CIT| Claimed by merlyn, 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] - {{CIT| Claimed by merlyn 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] - {{ CIT| Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[The Gate|"The Gate"]]<br />
# [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]]<br />
# [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Bad Guys''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">04/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[Strangers|"Strangers"]]<br />
# [[The Lost|"The Lost"]]<br />
# [[Estranged|"Estranged"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Louse|"Louse"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Strangled|"Strangled"]]<br />
# [[Losers|"Losers"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">10/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
# [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
# [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
# [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
# [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]]<br />
# [[Underwater|"Underwater"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Mayday|"Mayday"]]<br />
# [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
# [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Eleven]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Dark Ages''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
# [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
# [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
# [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Five]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Six]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Specials''' - ('''<span style="color:#d12525">01/01 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/01 Claimed}} | '''00/01 Completed''')<br />
# [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Episode Order==<br />
Recently, I added [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] to character appearances, and I placed it prior to [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]. Now, I know we've been placing things in release order, and that's a rule that I am in favor of continuing. But we've been making exceptions for this all along, too. For example: [[The Price|"The Price"]] aired earlier in sequence and [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]] aired late. Greg Weisman provided his preferred order... that order appeared on the DVD's. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the eventual trade paperback collections that the Halloween Special will be placed after the "Here In Manhattan" arc. Although, Disney+ has those two previous episodes in the airing order. And while I am still all in favor of issue releases for spin-offs like Bad Guys and Dark Ages being placed in release order (because that's the intended release order)... I do think we need a rule, with exceptions taking into account. But this isn't a hill I want to die on, so I'll abide by the consensus. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:21, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:The impetus for us shifting "The Price" and "The Kingdom" around was because of Greg Weisman's input. Should he mention something in a tweet or on a future ''Voices on the Eyrie'', I'm ok with the move. Otherwise, I think we can wait until the trades come out to see what the intended order is. I'm supportive with moving the Halloween Special up in the episode order and had been thinking similar thoughts since "Trick-Or-Treat" came out, but I didn't see a rush then and I don't see it now until we have something at least at the CIT level. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 07:48, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
::I agree with Phoen. But, like Greg B, I'm not going to make a fuss about it either way. --[[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 08:59, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::So, for practicality's sake for these next few issues, do we proceed with release order when it comes to new appearances being added to character pages after "Trick-Or-Treat" (at least, until we hear something definitive from Greg Weisman about the intended order)? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2023 (PDT)</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=GargWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=39473GargWiki talk:Community Portal2023-11-19T00:03:55Z<p>Merlyn: /* Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki */</p>
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<div>Since someone suggested it earlier, I decided to go ahead and open up the community portal for general discussions/suggestions for the whole of GargWiki. Enjoy! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 17:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Yay! Thank you Moeen. Now I have a place to make a suggestion: Does the side and border of the website have to be bright white? I like the dark blue of the rest of the site, it is easier on the eyes, but the white is hard on the eyes. Maybe it could be some other color, such as light blue? I know this is minor but little aesthetic things impact a website's overall viewing experience. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:06, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:You're welcome. :-) As for the background, I think in order to change it you have to edit the default skin used by the wiki, which is not something I know how to do, but I'm sure it can be done. Speaking of knowing how to do things, the link to [[:Help:Contents|Help]] on the sidebar links to a page that doesn't even exist! It would be nice if you could actually get help from the help page. Maybe some of the people running this place can put something there? Surely there's a MediaWiki manual for this site? Also, we could put up some general guidelines for writing articles on the GargWiki in the help section or on a related page. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:20, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Yes! A very good idea. And filling out the Help page would also be good. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:49, 9 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Italics==<br />
Got another question. I've gone through the wiki and italicized all capitalized references to ''Gargoyles'' the television show and ''Gargoyles'' the property. Should references to Gargoyles the comic book also be italicized? Right now the wiki is inconsistent, but I have seen ''Gargoyles: Bad Guys'' italicized. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:21, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Just my opinion, but I do think the title of both the television series and the comic book series (as opposed to the titles of episodes/issues) should be consistently italicized - gdw<br />
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:I've been using Wikipedia conventions (which I always fall back on in cases of confusion), which basically say television series, plays, films, comic book series, etc are all italicized. Episode titles are not italicized, but they are put in inverted commas "". On GargWiki we tend to use both italics and quotation marks for episode citations, but I think that's a special case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::So I went through and changed all the ones I could find. But here's a question. We're italicizing the names of episodes and comic issues in this Wiki. Should we also italicize the parenthises? The current state seems slightly inconsistent. My personal preference is to leave the parenthises non-italicized, but my main interest is to standardize the formatting throughout the Wiki. What format should we set? We could do it like this: ''("[[Monsters]]")'' or like this: (''"[[Monsters]]"''). -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:29, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::Are we italicizing the episodes and comic issues? I'm not sure that's consistent on the wiki either. But my opinion of it is that it is the citation that is italicized, not the episode. So I prefer italicizing the parenthises too, but that's just my preference. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 17:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Creating new pages==<br />
OK, I'm still a bit new to wiki-ing, so I'm not familiar with all the procedure. I'd like to add a new page for the Disney Adventures comic "A Study In Stone" (which would be counted in Apocrypha, of course, but I don't knw how to make a new page, or even if I can, not being a mod. Help? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14 September 2007<br />
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:You absolutely can! Anyone can create a page, and you can do it in one of two ways.<br />
:'''The first way:''' if you edit a page to include a link to your required article (in this case by adding the text <nowiki>[[A Study In Stone]]</nowiki>) it will produce a red (broken) link. Note that, when you edit a page to make a link like this, you can just use the preview button and you don't even need a to save. Next, you click on the red link (as if it was a non-broken, regular link), and it will take you to that page's "edit page". From there you can edit the page as if it already existed, and when you save it'll be right there.<br />
:'''The second way:''' you type in the title you want in the search bar to the left of the screen and push "Go". It will tell you that "No page with <font color="red">this exact title</font> exists". If you click on the red link on the words "this exact title", it will send you to the edit page of the page you want.<br />
:If you want to practice first, try creating your own user page by clicking on the link to [[User:Demonskrye]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Much thanks! The article for [[A Study in Stone]] is now up and viewable in the [[:Category:Apocrypha|Aprocrypha category]]. We can move it into one of the sub-categories, but until "Apocrypha Epsiodes" becomes something like "Apocrypha Storylines", I don't think there's an appropriate one for it. Also, I'd suggest that we put the info for making a new page into the now empty "Help" section.<br />
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A similar question. I've now done a couple of articles for the Disney Adventures comics, so I think we could use a "Disney Adevntures" subcategory in [[:Category:Apocrypha]]. I checked over on MediaWiki, but I'm still confused about how a subcategory is made. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 17 September 2007<br />
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:Those pages look pretty good. Creating a category is just like creating a page, except that you need to include the "Category:" prefix (note the colon). So either add the category to a page and use the red link, or type "Category:Whatever" into the search bar and hit "go", then proceed as before. For a subcategory, you just need to categorize the category. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Help==<br />
Since there's nothing in the help section, at some point I'll copy the help pages from MediaWiki here. In the meantime, you can find all the help you need [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents here]. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Google rankings==<br />
On 19 September 2007 (about 7 pm GMT), a search for 'Gargoyles' on Google turns up GargWiki at number 92 (the Gargoyles page on Wikiquote is 93). 'Gargoyles+Disney' is even worse at 132, and even then the link is to Category:Apocrypha (there's another link to the Episode Guide at 145). 'Gargoyles+TV' has a link to Grimorum at 18, but GargWiki doesn't appear until 75 (Talk:Main Page).<br />
<br />
Obviously, this is not a great situation to be in. Wikia has a few suggestions to improve the rankings [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Toughpigs/10_steps_to_raise_your_wiki%27s_Google_ranking here]. Section 2 is particularly interesting. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:24, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:So perhaps our rankings would be better if the name of the main page was something like "GargWiki - The Disney's Gargoyles Wiki" rather than the way we have it now, which Google may not get? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 19 September 2007<br />
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::I don't feel that Google rankings are as important as other might think, and our priority should be to improve the content here as best we can. But regardless, whatever you do '''''don't spam or vandalize other sites with links to GargWiki'''''. It is precisely [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/G._Bishansky this] kind of behavior (see [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=2669 here] for a more specific example) that got us blocked from Wikipedia, and probably other sites as well. If that happens, we'll be down even ''lower'' than we are now with the rankings. So please keep that in mind. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::That's true. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I never meant to even imply that spamming other sites was in any way a good thing. Cos it's not. Seriously.<br />
:::But changing the name of the Main Page might not be a bad idea, as long as we can do it without causing too much disruption. "GargWiki - The Gargoyles Wiki" is probably enough, or just "Gargoyles Wiki" as inour logo. But it might make the page look odd. I notice that the Main Pages on Wikipedia and Wikia sites don't have titles, as other pages do. Is there some way we could do that here? If not... maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:12, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Community Portal upgrade==<br />
I'm thinking of moving this page to [[GargWiki talk:Community Portal]], and turning [[GargWiki:Community Portal]] into an actual project page. I mean a proper "Welcome to the Community Portal, and here's what we got going on" sort of project page. We could have links to all the ongoing discussions throughout the wiki, which would be useful, and I'm also thinking of having a "Requested pages" section, where users can (basically) request a page. Thoughts? Comments? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:54, 8 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:Sounds like a good idea. This site really does need a page introducing new users or potential users to how things work around here. Plus we really need some guidelines, and given that there doesn't seem to exist any anywhere on this site, this would be good place to set some up.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 14:43, 11 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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::[[GargWiki:Policy]] has some behavioural guidelines, if that's what you mean. Is that what you meant? But anyway, since this could be a complicated reorganisation I'll start writing up a draft of the new page before I start doing anything. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:28, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:::I've written up a page - not quite everything I had originally intended, but it's a good start and we can always expand it later. I'll make the switch-over now. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:12, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
:::Done. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:20, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
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==A history lesson==<br />
Does anyone here know how GargWiki came to be made? When was it started, and who by, and what prompted its creation? I'm just asking because it would be nice to get a little background (not necessarily a lot) to flesh out the page [[GargWiki:About]]. I know that it must have been created on or shortly before 26 July 2006, because that's the first edit I can find and it's also when [[User:Jeb]], [[User:Greg Bishansky]] and [[User:Trio]] were made administrators. If anyone does know, feel free to answer either here or at [[GargWiki talk:About]]... or just add the information to the page. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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== Upgrading the Wiki ==<br />
<br />
Looking into Matt's suggestion for an Appearances section, I've noticed that this wiki lacks some of the functionality of other wikis because it's out of date. In particular, the version of MediaWiki used here is 1.5.1, whereas the latest version is 1.11.0. Granted we usually don't use the full functionality of the wiki, but it's still useful to stay up to date. Not being a system admin, I can't update the wiki myself, but it would be nice if whoever is the system admin is would do so.<br />
<br />
As far as using Wikipedia's referencing system, to install it follow the installation instructions [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation here]. It's only two steps, but requires accessing the system, something I can't do, but a system admin would be able to do.<br />
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P.S. Happy New Years to everyone! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 03:00, 1 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:I commented on this at [[Talk:Appearences Section]], but I'll repeat myself here: you can search for admins by using [[Special:Listusers]], but the ones that are most likely to be able to help you are Greg B, Matt, or Jeb.<br />
:Happy New Year to you too. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:34, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Sounds like you guys know more about the Wikipedia software than I do. You'll have to talk to Jeb or Greg B. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 15:36, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Alright, thanks. I'll inform Jeb and Greg B. on their talk pages and see it they can do something about it.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:44, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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Ten years later, I now have access to the server. I haven't upgraded the wiki yet, but I will as soon as I am convinced I know what I'm doing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 2 March 2018 (PST)<br />
:Judging by the lack of dark colors, I'm guessing things are happening, here. Call me patient and excited to see what's in store :) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:22, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
::Still being worked on. We need to get the skins back in place, and there are other glitches to fix, but the wiki has been upgraded. Notice that the buttons are back. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:23, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
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== Speculation ==<br />
<br />
Poking around the wiki, I think that there are a few too many places where personal speculation makes its way into the articles. Now there's speculation that I think is OK and speculation that I think doesn't belong here. Speculation that I think is OK is speculation that's based on established real world or Gargoyles universe fact. For example, since we know that gargoyle children generally receive physical characteristics from both parents, often favoring the appearance of the same gender parent and the coloration of the opposite gender parent, it would be fair to speculated that children of know gargoyle couples will probably resemble both of their parents, possibly even in that pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Artus will definitely look like a lavender Broadway, but the suggestion that he might have some of Broadway's physical features and Angela's coloring would be OK. If we didn't know that Elisa was going to be dead by 2198, I would consider it fair to say that she probably would be, given that she would be 230 years old by that time, which is well beyond human life expectancy as we currently know it. Short of major scientific breakthroughs or magical intervention, it would be safe to say that Elisa would probably not be around in roughly two centuries. I think Greg Weisman speculation is also fair game. greg has suggested, but never outright confirmed, that Zafiro and the gargoyle beasts may both have vestigial limbs, Zafiro due to appearing to be four limbed and the beasts as an evolutionary leftover from their common ancestor with gargoyles. I feel no problem with putting that in as canon-in-training as a possibility rather than a certainty until we either have Greg say it's not so (leading to it being deleted) or see someone take x-rays a Zafiro and/or the beasts (leading to it becoming canon). What I'm not OK with is speculation that is based more on guesses or predictions of character's behavior. I took a section out of Zafiro's article that suggested that his hair coloration and facial features could be presumed to be fairly common among the Mayan clan. We don't have any way of knowing that. We apparently know from Greg as canon-in-training that Zafiro's snake-like body structure is very common, despite the fact that he is the only current member of the clan to have it. But for all we know, he could be the only gargoyle in the Mayan clan with white hair and a serpentine face. Similarly, I think there's too much assumption about future hatchlings and their knowledge of their biological parentage. It is OK to assume that Nashville will have a closer relationship with Brooklyn and Katana for a while at least because they will be the only adult gargoyles he spends the majority of his time with. But once Brooklyn and family return to Manhattan, who knows? He may become particularly close to Angela or Broadway or Lex as well. And we have no evidence that Brooklyn and Katana will teach him to put importance on biological parentage. Yes, when he starts asking questions, he'll probably either be aware that Brook and Katana are his biological parents. But if they place no importance on that, if they tell him "We are two of your parents and we love you, but you have other parents and other family out there and some day you will get to see them and they will be just as much your family", it won't matter so much to him that the rest of the clan isn't related to him by blood. Same deal with Angela. It's more tempting to assume that she'll put more emphasis on biology because she is so interested in her own parentage. But things could change. When Nashville arrives and she actually sees the rest of the clan start to parent him, she may start to feel differently about what communal parenting really means. I think it's highly likely that she might tell her kids that she's their biological mother before they necessarily ask (though it's still not something I would assume). But I just don't think we can assume how she'll be raising kids who have yet to be conceived.<br />
<br />
Thoughts? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:47, 7 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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== Apocrypha ==<br />
At the head of any CIT article is a banner making it clear that's all it is. Shouldn't we have something similar for Apocrypha. To be clear, I think it's 100% appropriate for there to be articles here on, say, Dr. Phobos or Judge Bates, but shouldn't we have a (red?) flag of some kind at the top? -- gdw<br />
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:This problem has been raised at [[Talk:Angels in the Night]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:26, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::I'm glad this has come up again since the recent appearances of many of these apocrypha pages has beenn irking me. I like the idea a lot of a red flag banner at the top of such pages. I want this site to be about all things Gargoyles, including the non-canon stuff, but I think there needs to be a well seen line between the canon and the not canon, and that line is nearly invisible on pages like [[Dr. Phobos]] and [[Judge Bates]]. Frankly, I don't even like the apocyrpha sections on pages like [[Brooklyn]]. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:59, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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:::If you do this, I think you should only provide the banners for in-universe apocryphal articles, and not the out-of-universe articles (issues, episodes, the video-game, etc.). -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:59, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
::::Actually, [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]], I was thinking this was something you'd be better at then myself. I have no idea how to create a banner. And I think we would all trust your skills and judgement. I don't mean to seem like I'm assigning you this though, but if you want to do it at some point, that'd be cool. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:45, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:::::To be honest, this is way down at the bottom of "things I plan to do". Way down. Since I'm not entirely settled on the idea anyway, I probably won't get round to it for a long while.<br />
:::::But making a banner isn't so hard. Have a look at the source code at [[Template:CIT article]], then just change the details a bit. You don't need to know what it all does (I don't), but you can figure out enough to get by. The text is easy to change, but you can also change the background (as long as you know the hex code of the colour you want) and other things. Then it's just a matter of tweaking until it looks the way you want it to. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:04, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::::I've created a [[Template:Apocrypha article]] and implemented it on some TGC character pages. It's not quite a banner, but let me know what you think. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 06:49, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
I love it. Great job man! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I'm a little bit concerned that some people might not see it because it's so small and so far over to the right. But otherwise, I think it works quite well. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 09:37, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::I've increased the width and the font size a small amount, so hopefully it should be a bit more noticeable. Better? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:48, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:::Yes. I hadn't realized that the banner hang out at the right edge of the window, regardless of size, so I withdraw my concern about it being too far to the right. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:31, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Joining GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
Okay, we ''really'' need a mechanism set up by which new users can join GargWiki. If we're still concerned about spamming, then we should get a system that is completely disconnected: something like the Ask Greg comment room, but just for this... Or we could actually redirect users to the Ask Greg comment room. Get them to say 'I have registered as such-and-such, please allow me to edit GargWiki'. Or something. Would this be possible? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 07:13, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:Could someone please attend to Antiyonder's request for editing powers? (I still feel like going through Station Eight is a pretty awkward way to go about this.) -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:36, 6 September 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Dbdude01]] posted earlier today in the S8 Comment Room for editing privileges . . . from the Recent Changes page, looks like he registered on August 10th --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:20, 18 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
::Got it. Thanks, Pheon. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:29, 21 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
:::No prob, it's nice to see you around these parts as well man :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:19, 21 August 2015 (PDT) <br />
<br />
== Family tree ==<br />
<br />
Behold! A day and a half of my life wasted: [[User:Supermorff/Tree]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:That is very cool Great job, Supermorff. Hey, are you going to the Gathering this year? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:06, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:Nice job! Do you think we could put it in an article with a text version that would allow people to easily get to the articles for all these individuals? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::I had wanted to use the same templates as they use at Wikipedia (have a look, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Normandy#Family_tree), in which each box can contain arbitrary wiki markup (including links), but our current version of the MediaWiki software doesn't seem to support that. We could do another version with links, but plotting family trees in text alone is difficult and looks a bit rubbish if it's not done well. Might be worth a try though.<br />
::As for the Gathering, alas I will not be able to make it. My last year of university is wrapping up, and I have suspicions that two flights acros the Atlantic would not help me with revision. I could be wrong. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:29, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Another Character Page Idea==<br />
So, I'd say the Appearences sections on the character pages have been great and have really added to the information on this site. So, in response to the success of that section, I have another idea. Notable Quotes. Just take 1-5 quotes from a character and put them on the page if we want to. I was thinking making a new section called Notable Quotes and adding them there. I wouldn't want more than five or so, least it get cluttered. Another idea is putting a quote at the top of the character's page, but I feel that there is too much going on up there already. So, what do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:31, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Hmm. Maybe. I am skeptical. Couldn't we just link to [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles the ''Gargoyles'' page at Wikiquote]? On the Main Page maybe? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:21, 8 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==MediaWiki software update==<br />
Has there been any progress on updating the MediaWiki software that this site uses? I tried adding the possibility of collapsible tables. It didn't seem too complicated when I read how to do it, but it hasn't worked anyway, at least not as expected. I assume it's just not compatible with the version we've got. The current stable version of MediaWiki is 1.12, and we're still running 1.5. Time for an upgrade? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== image requests ==<br />
<br />
:''Moved from [[GargWiki:Community Portal#Requested images]]''<br />
Hi, guys. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be fulfilling these image requests soon now that I have plenty of time on my hands. I hope to have them done by the weekend. Take care! [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 12:20, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
:Thanks DTaina! You rock!!! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Hey, guys. DT here. If you know of any articles that have low quality pics (such as VCR screenshots or logos), or if you just want more pics, don't hesitate to let me know so I can get to work. [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 17:25, 9 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
<br />
==Just a thought==<br />
So, I'm thinking of creating a [[Misconceptions and urban legends about Gargoyles]] page. Mostly as an answer to a lot of really wacky theories I've seen out there. Some, like ''"Gargoyles was originally an anime," "Disney hates Gargoyles and conspired to kill it," "Space-Spawn look like gargoyles," "The Gathering of the Gargoyles is always in Montreal," "Goliath embraced the human way in Mark of the Panther," "Lexington can't be gay because he went after Angela,"'' and so on and so forth. Thoughts? Suggestions? -{{unsigned|Greg Bishansky}}<br />
<br />
:I like the page so far and the concept in general. I think we just need to figure out places we could link to it from so it's not just sitting there all by its lonesome. Possibilities include the Gargoyles TV series page and places in character or episode articles that mention these misconceptions. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14:38, 6 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Owen/Puck==<br />
Okay, so far, we've merged all alternate identities for characters into single entries. Molly and Banshee are now merged. Jon and John are now merged, etc. What do we do about Owen and Puck? I asked Greg his thoughts and even he thinks that one is not so clear cut. ''"It's a judgement call. I'd tend to combine them under a Puck/Owen Burnett entry with both the Puck and the Owen Burnett entries redirecting. But I think you should discuss it with the gwiki crew. Get a consensus."'' So, thoughts? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:I think it can go either way. I see no problem with having them in separate entries, but if you guys want to change it, then that's fine by me. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 17:55, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:It's a tough call. It would make sense to do the merge of aliases and alternate forms across the board. But the Puck/Owen thing just feels a little different. Aliases are fairly simple: you just pick the name that the character either had first or uses most frequently. "Dominique Destine" is just Demona's human alias. "Talon" is the name Derek Maza adopted after he was mutated, but his family still calls him "Derek." Alternate forms for one of Oberon's children are a little more difficult, but it seems that there's usually a primary identity we can all agree on, like with Banshee. And speaking of Banshee, her disguise was revealed in the same episode where she was introduced. The fact that Owen is Puck, of course, wasn't revealed until near the end of season two. And Puck is more dedicated to playing his role than any other fey we've seen with the possible exception of Titania (and even in that case, there isn't the marked difference in personality between Titania and Anastasia that there is between Owen and Puck). Owen almost is a separate person because Puck is committed to making him one. So should Owen retain a separate entry? And on a more practical note, would we be looking at an unusually long article if we merged the two or just less repetition? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 20:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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I definitely think they should not be merged. As [[User:Demonskrye]] said, they are two totally different entities. I think it's fine as is.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:53, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
Also, I'm not too crazy about merging [[Titania]] and Anastasia Renard. It feels too confusing to me for appearances sections and so on...what about episodes like [[Walkabout]] where Anastasia appears but not Titania. Just my two cents.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I suppose if we are going to be consistent be have to merge them together. I mean with Talon/Derek, Jon/John the merger seems fairly easy and obvious and not very problematic. They are, afterall, the same person using alias'. With Oberon's Children, I wonder... PGFish makes a good point about appearances section issues. I dunno. The more I think about it, the tougher it seems. ultimately though, I feel we should be consistent. Puck and Owen are the same entity. Puck and Owen can't exist at the same time anymore than Derek and Talon can. So, I suppose I'd go for merging them. As for the Appearances Sections, I suppose we need to be consistent there as well and list all the episodes where either Puck or Owen (or any other alias' used by that entity) have appeared. It may be confusing, but simply remember that we are following the person, not the form of the person. Puck is always Puck, even when he is pretending to be Owen. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:47, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Yes, but Puck isn't Puck when he's Owen. It's not simply an alias, but a seperate entity. When Owen is around, Puck doesn't exist.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 01:01, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:This is exactly the reason I have by-and-large been against merging aliases and alternate identities, because I knew this was where it was heading. I firmly believe that Puck and Owen should have separate pages.<br />
:Before I get down to my personal opinions, here are a few logistical facts:<br />
:1. The naming issue. You can't very well call the merged page "Owen Burnett", since Owen is an identity created by Puck. You can't call it "Puck" because Puck has appeared in just 4 episodes, compared to Owen's 30+. You also can't call the page "Puck/Owen" or similar, because this will create a subpage of "Puck", which is a redirect and it will wreak havoc with the MediaWiki software. So where do you stick a page like this?<br />
:2. Do we intend to merge the various sections as well? Will we merge the Appearances sections? If so, are we going to list appearances (As Puck) or (As Owen), which we've avoided in other cases? Will we just keep two separate Appearances sections? Will we merge the History sections, and mention "As Owen", or "As Puck" every other paragraphs? What's the point?<br />
:Now for my personal opinions: We don't ''gain'' anything by merging the two articles, except a heaping pile of confusion for new visitors. If I wanted to look for specific information on Puck, I would not look in Owen's article, so I fail to see the benefit in forcing me to look through a combined article for both characters. And yes, I do believe that they are separate characters, not just because they have different appearances, voice actors and personalities. They also have very different spheres of influence in the ''Gargoyles'' universe - spheres which only overlap at young Alex.<br />
:Something to consider when comparing this to other examples: The once-separate identities of Anastasia and Titania have now mostly been combined. Does anyone expect that Anastasia will ever appear again, with no mention of Titania? And yet Owen continues to appear without mention that he is Puck. I wouldn't (in all honesty) be surprised if Puck appeared without mention that he was Owen. So those two situations are not really comparable.<br />
:Also, whereas Anastasia and Titania were written (and cast) with the knowledge that it would be revealed that they were the same person. It wasn't until "The Mirror" was already written that the writers realised that Owen and Puck were the same person. In all the other cases that we've merged, there has never really been any doubt that the two characters/names/identities were always supposed to be "the same". With Owen and Puck, they were initially different and later combined (obviously it made perfect sense and worked beautifully, but that's not the point).<br />
:My final thought: Consistency, which is all fine and dandy, is a secondary consideration to making the best, clearest and most helpful encyclopedia that we can. We don't need to minimize the number of articles we've got, and this isn't Wikipedia in which we'd need to merge all similar characters just so they're notable enough to be mentioned at all. Merging in ''this'' case is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
:On a separate-but-related note, the Owen article is woefully short. More than half of the History section is actually about Puck, which could well be causing some of the confusion. We should expand the history section - give specific examples of Owen doing his job (keeping Elisa out in "The Edge", pulling a gun in "Enter Macbeth", taking the swab in "Double Jeopardy", summoning the commandoes in "Masque" and "Bash"). Some parts of the Characteristics section (such as his turning to stone by Demona, and his gaining a stone hand) should be mentioned in the History section in their proper context. We should mention that he's good at judo. We should add the anecdote about Owen being written with some unknown secret in his backstory, and then say how Greg and several other writers ''realized'', simultaneously and separately, that Owen and Puck were the same person. We should re-word the opening paragraph, so that Owen seems to be a character in his own right and not just some alias used by Puck, because he's more than that, and we should treat him as such. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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::Okay, after reading what Supermorff had to say, I want to change my vote. I think Owen and Puck should remain seperate. I think I know how to work this all out. I think alias' should be merged so Dominique Destine should be with Demona, John Castaway and Jon Canmore should be the same page, Talon and Derek, etc. These are the exact same person using different names and perhaps looking or acting different, but they are not new people. Meanwhile, alternate identities should remain seperate because they are two different people. <br />
::So, alias' merge, alternate identities remain seperate. What do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:23, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:::I agree with Supermorff 100%, too. You guys have my vote! [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:29, 13 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Young character pictures ==<br />
<br />
Recently a lot of pictures have been added of younger versions of several characters. These picures look great, and thanks both to GregW for suggesting the idea and DTaina for doing the hard work and providing them all! However, I would like to suggest that some of them be re-labelled to include either the age of the character or the year being depicted. So [[Princess Katharine]] is the best way of doing it (by the way, we need a young one of her too), but many others are less clear (I'm not sure why, but [[Bodhe]] seems like a particularly bad offender to me). Anyone agree? Disagree? Like pancakes? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:30, 16 January 2009 (CST)<br />
:Makes sense to me.--[[User:Gweisman|Gweisman]] 01:42, 17 January 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==A Scottish Family Tree==<br />
So, I unfortunately lack the photoshop skills, but I want to make a Family Tree of the Scottish royal family for the wiki. From [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] all the way down to [[Luach]] and [[Canmore]]. Anyone up for it? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 23:01, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:I was just pondering that this afternoon, actually. I'd suggest using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Familytree The end result then supports hyperlinks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_family#Family_tree I can do it, but not until after the Gathering. I'd have to import additional templates too. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 23:16, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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::This has already been done! [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] has already made one [[User:Supermorff/Tree|here]]. It could perhaps use some updating given the new information, however. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 16:12, 15 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:::I'm willing to update this and format it into a [[Scottish Royalty]] page or something, if Supermorff doesn't mind. But I'll need the original code. The family trees I've found are image files. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 22:53, 30 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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::::When I started doing this (a very ''very'' ling time ago), I wanted to create the Familytree template here. However, I think we have out-of-date MediaWiki software on this site, so all I could do was produce the sourcecode and copy the picture from another wiki. The sourcecode is all listed on that page Matt linked to, but it won't work here. If you could make it work, I'd love to see it on its own page! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:31, 25 December 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==Things of a more... "adult" nature==<br />
So, thanks to Blue Mug-A-Guests at various Gatherings, and occasional tidbits at Ask Greg, I'm wondering, do we stick any of this into the GargWiki? We always said we'd be all encompassing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:15, 13 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Can we provide sources for it? Stuff at AskGreg is fair game, but I'm hesitant to add things directly from Blue Mug-a-Guests unless someone posted about it at AskGreg, thus giving Greg a chance to correct or whatever.<br />
:It being of adult nature doesn't bother me at all. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:10, 14 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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::Well, I started with a tiny one in Demona's entry, just to see how well it goes over. Maybe if it's not too awkward, we can add more where appropriate. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:59, 26 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And here's some bits from the Blue Mug, not sure where to put them in the entries, but I thought we'd keep them here for info. A bit of it is off. Greg never said Lex and Staghart would have sex, for example. And Jackal and Hyena are NOT having incestuous sex; they'll share someone, but Jackal isn't weird enough for Hyena. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 08:27, 10 July 2014 (PDT)<br />
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[[Image:BM1.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM2.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM3.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
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==Weapons==<br />
So, DTaina had a great idea about putting together entries for weapons. Kinda like what we did for [[Exo-Frame]]. Still trying to think of how we'd do it. Obviously, particle beams need an entry. Demona's various big fucking guns could get an entry. I'd love it to be [[Demona's Big Fucking Guns]] but I won't fight for it ;) --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:40, 20 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==New Screenshots==<br />
You may have noticed some screenshots getting replaced by higher quality PNG files. Well, recently DTaina and I downloaded the latter half of season two in German. The quality of the video and picture is beautiful. DVD quality even. Much better than the ToonDisney and Jetix versions we've been using. So, for characters that popped up in episodes not on DVD, we'll be replacing their images with high quality PNG files. This will be a timely process, I think. But worth it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 14:49, 16 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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:Already noticing the improvement! Nice work! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:45, 17 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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== Images ==<br />
<br />
I see lots of [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|unused images]] on the database. May I delete them, or do you guys prefer to stow images for later use? Also, I'd like to categorize images using a simple template I usually customize for each wiki in which I'm most active. Upon community approval, this would also be dependent of us having parser function work. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 07:06, 14 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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:You just linked to the uncategorised files. Unused files are [[Special:UnusedFiles|here]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 00:28, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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::Doh. That's what I meant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 02:13, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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==Criteria for "Non-Canon" Art by Canon Artists==<br />
Since this issue just hit the fan, maybe it's time we really discussed this, and came up with official rules. I think a MAIN PIC needs to show the character off as best we can. If Greg Guler or Frank Paur were releasing art of characters, I'd be all for including them also. In other words, I want those pics up, so let's revise these rules. Here is what I'm thinking:<br />
<br />
Unofficial art by official artists is welcome on GargWiki. Encouraged even. But there should be certain criteria. Depicting a canon character is perfect. Depicting a non-canon scene is not allowed. For example, we have two main pics from Karine Charlebois. One depicting Katana and one depicting the Redemption Squad. Both are terrific and fit the proposed criteria perfectly. However, art of, let's say for example, Katana fighting Hakon even by an official artist like Charlebois or Paur, cannot be used because such a thing hasn't taken place in canon.<br />
<br />
Karine also has beautiful art of Brooklyn up, with everything we've seen since the end of "[[Phoenix]]." Except for the eye-patch. And since we don't know when he received his injury relative to when he received all his weapons and the armor, that art would not meet our criteria.<br />
<br />
What do you all think? Thoughts? Suggestions? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 10:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:I vote for canon pics. I feel that the purity of the canon material is more important than whether or not it looks good. Take Wikipedia for example. How many articles have you seen with grainy and badly drawn pictures of TV show characters, even though higher quality fanart pictures have always been available? We can have character models that were drawn behind the scenes. And we can have fanart here and there, but it shouldn't dominate the canon material. For me, canon and CiT should be above everything. And you guys can always count on me to touch up canon screenshots or scans that look a little sub par. What do you guys think? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:04, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::Taina, I think you missed what was being said. We're discussing revising the rules, with a VERY STRICT criteria to allow us to use the best resources we have. And as for wikipedia... I think it is a TERRIBLE website full of misinformation that is dumbing us down as a culture, and I refuse to use them as an authority on anything. And [http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality|Stephen Colbert agrees with me] ;)--[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:11, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::I'd revise the rules to never let fanart take the top spot. As a fan artist myself, I think I know where I'm coming from on this. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:24, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Yes, but you aren't a canon artist doing a fan-art, really the only ones who can respond to this with weight are Karine, Greg Guler, Frank Paur, Chris Jones, and anyone else who worked on the designs in the show/comic. For my part, I can see both sides of the argument, and have remained relatively neutral in these proceedings, however, if I am to cast a vote, I vote with in favor of GregXB's proposal providing that all of the safeguards and requirements he has requested are strictly enforced. --[[User:Griffinwyrm7|Griffinwyrm7]] 11:32, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
: Perhaps if the non-canon pics included some form of disclaimer identifying them as such in the captions? I'm not opposed to revising the rules, provided whatever rule we do eventually decide on is both clear and unambiguous. [[User:Algernon|Algernon]] 12:03, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: I agree with Greg that we should attempt to use the best picture available. But to me, the best picture available will always be canon over non-canon (or CiT) by default. Greg, I had the same thought about Karine's Brooklyn art in regards to the eye patch and armor and stuff and you should be able to see that by the same logic we cannot include the Katana picture. We have never seen Katana and the Phoenix together. I admit, I'm sure she has seen it plenty, but in the canon it has yet to happen. Therefore, by your own logic, the Katana picture isn't canon and shouldn't be allowed. But regardless of whether you accept that argument or not, the majority seems to be against the picture as the main pic, but fine with the compromose of having it lower on the page. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 14:58, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::Matt, no offense, but you are reaching so far, I want to ask you how the food in China is tasting. And what majority? There are three in favor of the pic... and who knows who else is going to come in to vote. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: If I read you correctly, your comment actually supports Greg's proposal. Greg said that we know Brooklyn will receive his injury and his gear, but not when. By the same logic, we know that Katana will someday travel with Brooklyn by way of the Phoenix, but not when. Unless Greg Weisman joins Scientology or something else that might severely distort the master plan, we know it's going to happen. So I don't see any harm in Karine's Katana pic. If someday we get more canon Gargoyles in some form and a better pic of Katana comes along, I would be in favor of using that pic instead. But right now, I think Karine's is the best we have. --[[User:Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
:::Except that it isn't canon. The fact that it is or isn't a superior pic is irrelevant. The quality of the picture is not the point. The point is that this site has always been about putting canon first, then CiT, then apocrypha. Bishansky has been one of the strongest supporters of this policy. It is only when that policy conflicts with his personal desires that he decides that a discussion needs to be had about the matter. At best, Karine's Katana picture only qualifies as CiT and the canon picture should take precedence.<br />
:::Look, Greg, this is a wiki. If you want your own Gargoyles site where you can do whatever you want regardless of what others think, that's fine. But don't try to hijack this site for that purpose. The community-based nature of this site means that we don't all always get our way. For instance, I HATE the negative and immature "reviews" of various apocrypha elements (specifically some TGC episodes) and I am greatly annoyed by the subjective statements, stupid captions, crude jokes and other unproffesional edits that litter many of the pages on this wiki. And I know I am not alone or even in the minority on a lot of it. But I choose my battles because this isn't my site. And it isn't yours either. It is a work of the all the contributors. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:29, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::Matt, was there really a need to get this personal? Really. Yes, this is a community. Look at all the people here discussing this issue. I didn't just change the rules willy nilly. I called for an official discussion on this, and made a proposal. A proposal that we are discussing and voting on already. Yes, it was a little inappropriate to make that remark about how far you're reaching, I get that. But you had to get really personal. So stop accusing me of being Sauron. Were I Sauron, I'd have blocked everyone and done what I wanted, but no... I wanted to have an actual discussion and vote. And from the looks of things, you don't have the majority you were boasting about. Hell, we even had Katana's designer, Robby Bevard, another canon artist, come in and say the one in the comic is off model. If you have personal issues with me, you have my e-mail address. For the record, I have no personal issues with you. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Matt: Do you specifically know someone who likes the Goliath Chronicles? If you do, please invite them to defend their opinions here. And I would also like to add that I wrote a very unflattering article about the Assassin on this wiki, which someone edited. And I respected that, because my opinions on the Assassin exist on other sites. But what is being suggested here does not seem unflattering. --[Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
I designed Katana, and colored the issue she appeared in. Ben Dunn was incredibly off model in many, many respects, (The world will never know just how much I had to redraw, and how much more I wished I had time for...) and had no knowledge of the series, he was ONLY brought on because deadlines needed to be met. As it is, I redrew half the pages Katana appeared on anyway and had to add all the weapons on Brooklyn. It was NOT the optimal art. If I'd had more time before the deadline, or the artist had been more open to redrawing pages, she'd be closer to on model and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion in the first place. I'd say use the cleaner full body shot by a different artist that worked on the books. Deadlines are the bane of this sort of thing... Didn't Enter Macbeth have retakes done? Didn't Vows have its ending changed after the first airing? Didn't the mutates all get complete redesigns after their first appearance? I'd say, at the very least, have the professional full body shot (by one of the folks that worked on the comic!) available on the wiki for viewing, even if its not the first and foremost pic.--[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 17:56, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:I agree that Karine's art can stay, but it shouldn't be the foremost pic. It should be canon and CiT first, right? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:02, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Makes sense to me. I hate the final product as it appeared in the book for a variety of reasons, but... canon should be first. Maybe it can be really small. As is, I've always assumed that Katana will have some sort of redesign or tweaking anyway whenever she next appears in some form of media. Since the final art really was not good or ideal. --[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 18:17, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you agree Robby. And thanks for all your hard work, by the way.<br />
::As far as I can tell, no one has suggested that Karine's picture be completely taken off the site. Everyone seems to be alright with it being on Katana's page somewhere. It really just comes down to some of us prefering quality over canon and some of us prefering canon over quality. Obviously, I'm in the latter group.<br />
::As for the TGC pages. There are fans who like TGC. I'm not one of them, but that isn't the point. The point is that those pages take this site down a lot in my opinion. Most of us strive to make this site professional and objective and canon-centered and those pages make the site seem like a joke. And most of us are not laughing. That is my opinion, of course. I'd prefer to do away with all the nonsense myself, but I'm content to only worry about the canon and CiT material and resign myself to the fact that others will use this site to attack Gargoyles apocryphal material they didn't like.<br />
::Which brings me back to Katana. As a canon page with a depicted canon character I feel we should focus on her canon appearence. For good or ill, the canon picture is the canon picture for now and nothing is going to change that. If Karine (or whomever) produces a better quality CANON picture down the road, I'd love to replace the current canon picture with the new one. But until that point, what we have is what we have.<br />
::Or perhaps we should enlist Karine or other canon artists in re-drawing all the art we don't like into non-canon portraits and landscapes for use as canon material. Please. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 18:23, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
:::Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen. I'm fine with fixing up little animation errors, editing out grain and logos... but it has to stop somewhere. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:30, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::So recap -- this is really TWO issues in one -- 1) Do we allow unofficial art by official artists on GargWiki? AND 2) Would an unofficial piece of art be OK to take the main focus of the article, in particular, in cases when Canon material is ''also'' available (especially when the quality of the two works is being considered). The first issue is clearly the most non-controversial -- Everyone seems loves Karine's work on Katana, myself included (and that's not to mentioning her other unofficial work featured in the [[Dingo]], [[Redemption Squad]] and [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns]] pages). In my eye, the precedence of unofficial art by official artists is what allows us to have CIT to ''begin with'' -- Greg Weisman's own continued and unofficial work as creator of the show. As for the second issue, I give my vote for Canon material before CIT and anything else unofficial (this is why Apocrypha is located at the bottom of a character's page and why CIT is tagged at the top of the page or marked in {{CIT|blue type}} . . . but that doesn't mean that the unofficial work by the official artists can't be included in the Wiki. Just trying to clear things up a bit while adding my own two cents --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:36, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Tallying it all up, okay, I lost. Cool. That's democracy. We had an official discussion, and for now, I lost it. That's what democracy is. Good thing I don't throw my weight around here and behave like a dictator like certain people like to insinuate, and then not apologize when they get called on it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
:Based on the outcome of this discussion, I've swapped back the positions of the Katana images so that the canon image appears first. (This seems to have slightly mucked up the position of the other images on the page, so if someone can figure out how to fix that please do - I'm sure this has changed since we upgraded wiki software.)<br />
:Robby, your comments about the process and the final artwork are very interesting. Would you be opposed to having them on the relevant wiki articles? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:59, 20 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
==JEB's Resignation==<br />
JEB recently resigned as our administrator. Of course we here at GargWiki thank him for getting this site started and for doing as much as he did since it's inception... which was quite a bit behind the scenes. How ever, we need another admin to become the primary point of contact for technical or administrative issues from this point forward. Scott Sakai (who runs the server with Gorebash) can take care of the patching and other server-side activities. However, someone else would need to take care of the administrative tasks (i.e. everything else that is done through the web interface). I would do it, but I have no idea how. So, is anyone interested in the position? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:47, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I also have no idea how. I doubt any of the regular editors know how. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:21, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::No idea here either. I was gonna recommend Supermorff! Guess not. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:03, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yeah, my first instincts said Supermorff too. Hmm, anyone else? I think Thogial has some wiki experience. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:17, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::I've left Thogial a message about it. If he can't do it, I'm willing to learn. (Although I'll be busy for the next three weeks or so. After that, I'll be willing to learn.) -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:41, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I'm afraid I'm not the guy. I do have wiki experience; I know my way around CSS, though I'm (almost) totally ignorant of Javascript. However, I'm not entirely sure my experience would address the needs of this site... At Wikia we run wikis via CSS and JS, but here I gather it's more like a web hosting forum site (web interface and whatnot) and I've never done that. You're looking for someone who knows how to solve problems when they occur--not someone who needs to learn how to do it first. For instance, I have no clue on how to solve the software issue we've had since you moved the site...<br />
:::::On the other hand, if we can't find a suitable replacement, then the best alternative would be something as per Supermorff's suggestion: we round up three or four members to chime in and learn who to do it, intuitively or otherwise. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 05:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Hi, JEB here. I really don't think it should be that hard to replace me on the web side of the wiki; anyone who's had wiki and admin experience (like most of you above) should be able to do it after a quick review of the options on Special Pages. There's also plenty of advice on operating Mediawiki wikis on the web. Whoever steps up to the plate, I thank him and wish him well. [[User:Jeb|Jeb]] 14:09, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:Hey, Jeb. Well if that's the case, then I'd be happy to lend a hand. But not alone. Must this be a one man's job? Because I'd feel more comfortable with some backup... Supermorff? If we can share the load, I'm game. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 15:03, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:I could try my best to learn also. So, what do you say? Supermoff, Thogial, and I sharing the load? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::The more the merrier. Since you two have been here the longest, I'll be L-3. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::Woot! I get to be Vandal Savage! ... and shadows still conceal our light! -[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::I get to be nigh immortal and with an army of assassins at my disposal. Supermorff gets to be bald. :p -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:53, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::No, L-3 is bald, that's you. I get the army of assassins and a name that is constantly mispronounced. More than happy to help out here too, though. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:15, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::::Oh crap, that's right. Oh well, I get the hot assistant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 03:47, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:Well, you three have my vote -- JEB, thanks for everything you've done for the GargWiki (especially since its probably stuff I'll never fully realize) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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''*Face scrambling mode: ON.*'' So, what's the situation regarding this matter? --[[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 09:08, 4 April 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Apocrypha appearances==<br />
A friend mentioned on Facebook: ''"So the GargWiki doesn't list characters' episode appearances from the third season. That's decidedly unhelpful regardless of whether or not it's canon."'' He was looking for Fox's TGC appearances. While this is not unreasonable, the Appearances section on the character pages is designed for canon only. And then what, do we log all the Marvel Comic appearances? All the Disney Adventures comic appearances? I'm not against it, but this is something that will need to be discussed, researched, because it would be a large project. I definitely don't want it incorporated into the main appearances section on each page, though. And, to be honest, I don't want to be the one to do this. The last thing I want to do is re-visit TGC. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:52, 6 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
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:While i think it is great that this Wiki has always been home to all things "Gargoyles" I think it is pretty clear that we are strongly biased to the canon. So for this to go down I'd suggest one or both of two things. 1. Make a seperate appearances section within the apocrypha sections of each characters page listing what apocrypha episodes/issues they appeared in and 2. Make an appearance list on each apocrypha page saying who was in the TGC episode or Marvel issue. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:58, 7 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Archmage's time loop ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
Hi, everyone. So it's that time of the year when I binge re-watch ''Gargoyles'' and I am up to the "Avalon" three-parter. As always I tried to make sense of the Archmage's time loop, but to no avail, but this time I decided to make some research. I found [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/faq20.htm this] long reply from GW and a few short ones [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12991] [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13167] that helped some. For me, Griff's time loop was always easier to understand than the Archmage's, maybe because the latter involved both of his selves, while the former involves a [[Goliath|third party]]. I was never at any convention, so I never saw GW explaining the loop with a diagram, so I made my own from what I understand of the loop and GW's explanations. Am I close? Does anyone have any comments/explanations? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 16:36, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
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:Awesome diagram, Thogial! Yep, visually, that looks pretty darn accurate to how Greg's typically described it (and how I, at the least, always made sense out of it). That said, while I see it in the arrow's paths, the diagram could probably still use some written explanation that the Enhanced Archmage (that led the proto-Archmage through time), following his younger self (now enhanced)'s departure back to 984, goes on to attack Oberon's Palace. Maybe even include his death in 1995, if there's room. In any event, the final version has to go on [[Archmage|his]] page, as well as "[[Avalon Part Two|Avalon]]" Part Two page --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:56, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::How's that? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 06:19, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
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:::<nowiki>**thumbs up**</nowiki> Seriously, great work Thogial :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:16, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
::::Thanks. :) I took the liberty of putting some dissertation around it. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 11:30, 19 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Canon is coming ==<br />
So, here's the question... how long should we wait before adding spoilers to the GargWiki? Obviously, we can edit the new issues' pages right away, but... do we update character entries at once, or should we give it a few days to a week? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
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:If memory serves right, I felt we added spoiler content to the wiki pretty quickly -- issue pages, characters, objects, etc . . . not to mention converting CIT to Canon and adding new canon-in-training when reasonable, but those edits were usually tagged as containing spoiler content in the edit summary/notes. Invisible Spoiler tags were the etiquette and expectation for Station 8 reviews and discussions. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:05, 9 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Appearances ==<br />
<br />
Okay, I've got two thoughts here. We've got another spin-off coming, "Gargoyles: Dark Ages" and how do we want to deal with this in the Appearances sections on character pages? Should we leave it as is, and add the appearance in the order the issue comes out... or should we undertake the big project of dividing the Appearances sections on character pages into different series? For example: "Appearances in Gargoyles", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Bad Guys", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Dark Ages"? Someone like Demona appears in all three, for example. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I would personally prefer we keep the style we adopted with ''[[Gargoyles: Bad Guys]]'' -- Dividing up the appearances doesn't seem consistent to the intentions of the wiki. Best case, it amounts to a lot of rearranging, and worst case it could leave the impression that the main comic (or the original series) has more weight than the rest (which I can comfortably suspect is not the opinion of anyone here). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:43, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::That makes sense, because then why not have a Goliath Chronicles appearances section? Or Marvel and Disney Adventures? But I am open to a counterargument. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:55, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::With all canon material I think we should list appearances in order of official release of the media. So if a character appears in Gargoyles Chapter 7, then Dark Ages Chapter 1, then Gargoyles Chapter 8, we will list their appearances in that order. My two cents, of course. If we want to put TGC, marvel comic book material, etc in an appearances list in the apocrypha section, thats fine, but I generally don't care about non-canon stuff. Should be its own thing though. [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 12:54, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::It has been noted elsewhere that while the editors on this wiki cover all things related to ''Gargoyles'', our preferred interest historically prioritizes canon and {{CIT|canon-in-training}}. I'd opt also for establishing a precedent for an appearances subsection under a character's Apocrypha section. [[Demona]] is probably the best example of possibilities, with multiple non-canonical appearances on screen, page, stage, and device(? I'm thinking video games here, which, for the Demona page specifically, looks like it needs some toggling anyhow). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 12:59, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::::The Demona page might be our second biggest page outside of the timeline. And maybe it does need to be broken up in places. For example, look at all the Megatron pages on TFWiki: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Megatron_(G1) . But I agree, let's leave the Appearance section as is. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 13:11, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
OH! Apologies, I should have mentioned this earlier. One change I have made in the Appearances section a month or so back, each column now has a cap of twenty-five titles. Once we hit twenty-five, we start a new column. We can increase or decrease this, but I'd like it uniform. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 08:48, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Sounds good to me. Hopefully, we eventually have to tackle the problem of too many columns! [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 09:28, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Releases ==<br />
<br />
So, at what point is something no longer a "new release" (boy, I love that we're now asking this question). Right now, I'm operating on a year, but is that too much? For example, NECA Hudson was released last September; that's nine months. Is it still new? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:12, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
: For NECA, I'm undecided, but for the comics (of which, anectodally, my local shop currently only has leftovers of "A Little Crazy" still on the shelves), I was figuring we take the first six off the New Release list once the first trade debuts. And, no idea what the traffic is here, but I haven't plugged the trade on the Coming Soon section so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing those first six issues. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 11:06, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Thinking about names like a human==<br />
In recognizing that we will be inundated with placeholder-names for the various gargoyle characters from ''Dark Ages'', and seeing some inconsistency pop up across the wiki (and occasionally on the same page), I wanted to bring up an idea to standardize our approach. <br />
<br />
While we certainly want to continue prioritizing canonical names like Coldstone and Coldfire to Othello and Desdemona, for all intents and purposes, the characters we refer to as Second, Sacrifice, and Verity will never (barring time travel) have a true name in any canon work. So I do find it a bit silly to keep throwing quotes around their placeholder-names when nothing more concrete (pun somewhat intended) is anticipated.<br />
<br />
Any edits I've made quoting a character's placeholder/behind-the-scenes name have been made when we've no real other way to distinguish them from names a character gave to themselves or were received by others in the series. Names like True and Hyppolyta certainly aren't apocryphal, but it's a flavor of non-canon that can’t ever really ''become'' canon, so the canon-in-training template doesn't fit. <br />
<br />
BUT, inspired by our ever-helpful CIT template, I whipped up and tinkered with (in previews mode), a different-colored template for characters that had no true name. In essence, the placeholder-name would be bolded in gray type. This color choice can be adjusted of course, but the idea is that whatever color chosen and settled on (if we did go this route) would not jar too much from the white text and contrast well enough from the blue backgrounds and bluer-CIT type. (I also liked the gray because a passive, stony-looking color fit well opposite to that of an actively used name.) <br />
<br />
I've also included a hover text that gets highlighted when a cursor is over the name: '''"This is not the character's true name."''' That phrasing can also be tinkered with, but it does work for situations ranging from Iago (in the credits) to Kermit (only in the script). (More on Mentor & Angel below.)<br />
<br />
At the moment, I've tinkered the template tag with the name NoTrueName, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. NoNames or something pithier could be hashed out later.<br />
<br />
To sum up, in the overall desire that we have a consensus for being consistent one way or another, our options for writing articles with characters that are lacking true names include:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Option 1''', no quotes, no nothing for placeholder names (but to the uninitiated, this can be misleading).<br />
:For the next twenty-three years Second and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
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'''Option 2''', consistent quotes for placeholder-names.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years “Second” and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
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'''Option 3''', tag the character’s placeholder name with the new template.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years <span title="This is not the character's true name." style="cursor:help; color:#999999; font-weight:bold">Second</span> and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now, I think it is best to also remember that there is a distinction to consider between <nowiki>'</nowiki>names<nowiki>'</nowiki> like Mentor and Angel that do have SOME canonical association (Coldstone to Hudson and Goliath to Demona), whereas names like Schnozz, Brooksbro, and Kermit are really only for scripting purposes. That’s why I would be ok with not quoting or tagging Mentor and Angel with the potential-new template (I’ve noticed we don’t quote Gargoyle of the Sword for Brooklyn).<br />
<br />
I know that's a lot, and some options would require more overhaul across the wiki than others, but I’d love to hear what others think. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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:I'm okay with whatever the team decides. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:11, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you brought this up. It was already feeling inconsistent and messy and was only going to get worse. My vote would be option 2. If the name is purely a placeholder for an unnamed character we use quotations. Always. Maybe even in the title for the respective page. And the quotes should be explained in the header. Mentor and Angel can use those names until the switch to Hudson and Demona, and it should be "Othello" until he receives the name Coldstone. Just my thoughts. I'm not stuck on it. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 18:15, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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:::That would be my preference as well. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 21:32, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, so consistent quotes for '''all''' placeholder-names. On the subject of in-universe non-names likes Mentor and Angel and Gargoyle of the Sword, I agree we use them in their proper context (before they are Hudson and Demona, and in Brooklyn's case I see that handle usually on the pages of characters in 997 that wouldn't know his name), but I want us all to be on the same page. Do we use quotes for those names too? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 21:40, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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:::::I say no quotes on Angel, Mentor, etc. since they are used in-universe. Thoughts on changing the name of pages from Sacrifice to "Sacrifice"? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 06:13, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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::::::Okie doke, no quotes for in-universe non-names. And for characters that will, in all likelihood, never have a canonical name, yes, let's change those page names. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Works for me. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 12:35, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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::::::::I've done the moves for every 10th century Wyvern gargoyle without a true name save for Hyppolyta and Antiope. We have at least one unknown character (for now) naming gargoyles after historical and legendary figures in the prose story, and I'm preferring being patient in Hyppolyta's case. If anyone feels this caution is unneeded, we can move that page too with one with quotes. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I'm sure there are pages that haven't been adjusted yet that we'll spot in the meantime, but I just wanted to quickly note some quirks this new standard will bring us. For one, I really don't love seeing a apostrophe used next to a character's name that's been quoted, so I rewrote a couple sentences ("Kermit"'s page had a hard one). Also, I saw on the timeline that when Puck was impersonating "Goliath" in "Possession", we used quotes that date's entry. So that kind of nuance can get tricky. I don't know. I still prefer that we have a system that makes sense to all of us, and if those nitpicks I mention don't bother anyone else, then I'm fine with what we have. If they are some cause for concern or query, then I leave this comment for food for thought if we did want to readress and/or adjust course a bit before the next ''Dark Ages'' comic comes out.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
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:::::::::I agree, we definitely need a uniform system. I'm not sure what my preference is, but whatever the group decides, I'm down with it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:10, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Great job, Phoen! All looking really good. As for the "Goliath" issue, maybe we could just do something like [[Puck|Puck (As Goliath)]] or something so that it isn't the same system as the quotations. Or we just leave it as this is a special case. Like Greg, I'm open to whatever. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 07:25, 25 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
With new canon, and this renaissance of GARGOYLES taking place, it's time for us to really modernize this thing. I am no computer programmer or wiki programmer, but I know someone who is interested in overhauling the visuals of the GargWiki. But what we also need to do is update our episode summaries. A lot of great people have done a lot of hard work here, but we're lacking in the episode and comic book synopsis department. Take a look at the [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Young_Justice_Wiki Young Justice Wiki], look at their episode and comic book synopsis's... it's a real reference site. So are we, but the bar has been raised and I think we need to meet it. Something the fandom can use, something the people bringing us new official stories can use. A brief summary of main plot and subplot is not a clear and clean exposition of the plot. Right now story points are often glossed over or left unmentioned or taken out of context. So let's make this something we can truly build, we don't need to get it done over night... but something we can slowly chip away at. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:38, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Hello. Here at GregX’s request. It’s going to take me some time to get back up to speed on wiki editing, but I’m willing to help. Do we want to make a list of high priority episodes/issues that we should start with? Stuff that might be particularly relevant for what’s happening in the comics right not? Or maybe just a list of everything that needs to be done that can be consulted and checked off as we go? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] ([[User talk:Demonskrye|talk]]) 08:53, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Great to see you back! Well, I just took care of the synopsis for [[The Edge]]. I don't think we need to overthink things at this point. Let's start small, make sure we have the format down and then go from there. We can make a check list, volunteer for specific episodes. And of course keep each other in the loop if life happens and we can't tackle it and someone else might like to. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:[[Thrill of the Hunt|"Thrill of the Hunt"]], [[Temptation|"Temptation"]], and [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] all look like viable examples to model for other episode pages. At the least, providing a more detailed three-act breakdown will help compensate for the fact that ''Gargoyles'' doesn't usually have timestamps that the YJ Wiki can depend on as reference. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I'm looking at you, Stone of Destiny arc, lol. You have timestamps up to the brim! d: --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:48, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Demonskrye did a fantastic job with those. I intend to get started soon. Maybe I'll start with "The Edge". --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::If no one minds, I can take a crack with "Upgrade" -- I can at least coordinate with the upcoming ''Voices From the Eyrie'' (not to worry, I wouldn't make this a monthly endeavor) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::Please do. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 04:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:All right, I just added the "skeleton" (three acts and such) to each canonical episode entry. My way of making our statement of intent, and I plan to get started very soon. And, on top of that, Demonskrye's synopsis for "Temptation" is the perfect model. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 05:21, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Oooh, I just thought of something; perhaps, when an episode has one at the end, we can include an additional section after Act Three dubbed the 'Xanatos Tag'. We've long had it on the to-do list here on the Community Portal, and pointing out how that played out in the various episodes (especially when another character subverts the expectation) might be the natural fit that hasn't been found elsewhere on the GargWiki -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 06:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's the master list. Feel free to update with ones you plan to do and ones that were done. Also, when you claim an episode page to work on, please date it and sign it with '''<nowiki>{{CIT|Claimed by ~~~~}}</nowiki>''' <br />
<br />
{| style="width:100%"<br />
|<br />
'''Season 1 episodes''' – ('''13/13 Complete''') <br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
<br />
'''Season 2 episodes''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">29/52 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|09/52 Claimed}} | '''14/52 Complete''')<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]]<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 02:35, 7 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Shadows of the Past|"Shadows of the Past"]]<br />
# [[Heritage|"Heritage"]]<br />
# [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]]<br />
# [[Monsters|"Monsters"]]<br />
# [[Golem (episode)|"Golem"]]<br />
# [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[M.I.A.|"M.I.A."]] - {{CIT|Chip plans to do it.}}<br />
# [[Grief|"Grief"]]<br />
# [[The Hound of Ulster|"The Hound of Ulster"]]<br />
# [[Walkabout|"Walkabout"]]<br />
# [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]]<br />
# [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]]<br />
# [[The New Olympians|"The New Olympians"]]<br />
# [[The Green|"The Green"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Sentinel (episode)|"Sentinel"]]<br />
# [[Bushido (episode)|"Bushido"]]<br />
# [[Cloud Fathers (episode)|"Cloud Fathers"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 23:34, 2 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Ill Met By Moonlight|"Ill Met By Moonlight"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:38, 28 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]<br />
# [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Vendettas|"Vendettas"]]<br />
# [[Turf|"Turf"]]<br />
# [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]]<br />
# [[Possession|"Possession"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part One|"Hunter's Moon" Part One]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Two|"Hunter's Moon" Part Two]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
|<br />
'''Gargoyles: Clan-Building''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">12/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
# [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
# [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]]<br />
# [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
# [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
# [[Reunion|"Reunion"]] <br />
# [[The Rock|"The Rock"]] - {{Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] - {{Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] - {{Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[The Gate|"The Gate"]]<br />
# [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]]<br />
# [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Bad Guys''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">04/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[Strangers|"Strangers"]]<br />
# [[The Lost|"The Lost"]]<br />
# [[Estranged|"Estranged"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Louse|"Louse"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Strangled|"Strangled"]]<br />
# [[Losers|"Losers"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">10/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
# [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
# [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
# [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
# [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]]<br />
# [[Underwater|"Underwater"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Mayday|"Mayday"]]<br />
# [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
# [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Eleven]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Dark Ages''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
# [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
# [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
# [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Five]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Six]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Specials''' - ('''<span style="color:#d12525">01/01 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/01 Claimed}} | '''00/01 Completed''')<br />
# [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Episode Order==<br />
Recently, I added [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] to character appearances, and I placed it prior to [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]. Now, I know we've been placing things in release order, and that's a rule that I am in favor of continuing. But we've been making exceptions for this all along, too. For example: [[The Price|"The Price"]] aired earlier in sequence and [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]] aired late. Greg Weisman provided his preferred order... that order appeared on the DVD's. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the eventual trade paperback collections that the Halloween Special will be placed after the "Here In Manhattan" arc. Although, Disney+ has those two previous episodes in the airing order. And while I am still all in favor of issue releases for spin-offs like Bad Guys and Dark Ages being placed in release order (because that's the intended release order)... I do think we need a rule, with exceptions taking into account. But this isn't a hill I want to die on, so I'll abide by the consensus. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:21, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:The impetus for us shifting "The Price" and "The Kingdom" around was because of Greg Weisman's input. Should he mention something in a tweet or on a future ''Voices on the Eyrie'', I'm ok with the move. Otherwise, I think we can wait until the trades come out to see what the intended order is. I'm supportive with moving the Halloween Special up in the episode order and had been thinking similar thoughts since "Trick-Or-Treat" came out, but I didn't see a rush then and I don't see it now until we have something at least at the CIT level. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 07:48, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
::I agree with Phoen. But, like Greg B, I'm not going to make a fuss about it either way. --[[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 08:59, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::So, for practicality's sake for these next few issues, do we proceed with release order when it comes to new appearances being added to character pages after "Trick-Or-Treat" (at least, until we hear something definitive from Greg Weisman about the intended order)? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2023 (PDT)</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=GargWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=39472GargWiki talk:Community Portal2023-11-19T00:02:10Z<p>Merlyn: /* Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki */</p>
<hr />
<div>Since someone suggested it earlier, I decided to go ahead and open up the community portal for general discussions/suggestions for the whole of GargWiki. Enjoy! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 17:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Yay! Thank you Moeen. Now I have a place to make a suggestion: Does the side and border of the website have to be bright white? I like the dark blue of the rest of the site, it is easier on the eyes, but the white is hard on the eyes. Maybe it could be some other color, such as light blue? I know this is minor but little aesthetic things impact a website's overall viewing experience. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:06, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:You're welcome. :-) As for the background, I think in order to change it you have to edit the default skin used by the wiki, which is not something I know how to do, but I'm sure it can be done. Speaking of knowing how to do things, the link to [[:Help:Contents|Help]] on the sidebar links to a page that doesn't even exist! It would be nice if you could actually get help from the help page. Maybe some of the people running this place can put something there? Surely there's a MediaWiki manual for this site? Also, we could put up some general guidelines for writing articles on the GargWiki in the help section or on a related page. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:20, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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::Yes! A very good idea. And filling out the Help page would also be good. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:49, 9 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Italics==<br />
Got another question. I've gone through the wiki and italicized all capitalized references to ''Gargoyles'' the television show and ''Gargoyles'' the property. Should references to Gargoyles the comic book also be italicized? Right now the wiki is inconsistent, but I have seen ''Gargoyles: Bad Guys'' italicized. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 23:21, 7 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Just my opinion, but I do think the title of both the television series and the comic book series (as opposed to the titles of episodes/issues) should be consistently italicized - gdw<br />
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:I've been using Wikipedia conventions (which I always fall back on in cases of confusion), which basically say television series, plays, films, comic book series, etc are all italicized. Episode titles are not italicized, but they are put in inverted commas "". On GargWiki we tend to use both italics and quotation marks for episode citations, but I think that's a special case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::So I went through and changed all the ones I could find. But here's a question. We're italicizing the names of episodes and comic issues in this Wiki. Should we also italicize the parenthises? The current state seems slightly inconsistent. My personal preference is to leave the parenthises non-italicized, but my main interest is to standardize the formatting throughout the Wiki. What format should we set? We could do it like this: ''("[[Monsters]]")'' or like this: (''"[[Monsters]]"''). -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:29, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:::Are we italicizing the episodes and comic issues? I'm not sure that's consistent on the wiki either. But my opinion of it is that it is the citation that is italicized, not the episode. So I prefer italicizing the parenthises too, but that's just my preference. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 17:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Creating new pages==<br />
OK, I'm still a bit new to wiki-ing, so I'm not familiar with all the procedure. I'd like to add a new page for the Disney Adventures comic "A Study In Stone" (which would be counted in Apocrypha, of course, but I don't knw how to make a new page, or even if I can, not being a mod. Help? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14 September 2007<br />
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:You absolutely can! Anyone can create a page, and you can do it in one of two ways.<br />
:'''The first way:''' if you edit a page to include a link to your required article (in this case by adding the text <nowiki>[[A Study In Stone]]</nowiki>) it will produce a red (broken) link. Note that, when you edit a page to make a link like this, you can just use the preview button and you don't even need a to save. Next, you click on the red link (as if it was a non-broken, regular link), and it will take you to that page's "edit page". From there you can edit the page as if it already existed, and when you save it'll be right there.<br />
:'''The second way:''' you type in the title you want in the search bar to the left of the screen and push "Go". It will tell you that "No page with <font color="red">this exact title</font> exists". If you click on the red link on the words "this exact title", it will send you to the edit page of the page you want.<br />
:If you want to practice first, try creating your own user page by clicking on the link to [[User:Demonskrye]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Much thanks! The article for [[A Study in Stone]] is now up and viewable in the [[:Category:Apocrypha|Aprocrypha category]]. We can move it into one of the sub-categories, but until "Apocrypha Epsiodes" becomes something like "Apocrypha Storylines", I don't think there's an appropriate one for it. Also, I'd suggest that we put the info for making a new page into the now empty "Help" section.<br />
<br />
A similar question. I've now done a couple of articles for the Disney Adventures comics, so I think we could use a "Disney Adevntures" subcategory in [[:Category:Apocrypha]]. I checked over on MediaWiki, but I'm still confused about how a subcategory is made. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 17 September 2007<br />
<br />
:Those pages look pretty good. Creating a category is just like creating a page, except that you need to include the "Category:" prefix (note the colon). So either add the category to a page and use the red link, or type "Category:Whatever" into the search bar and hit "go", then proceed as before. For a subcategory, you just need to categorize the category. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Help==<br />
Since there's nothing in the help section, at some point I'll copy the help pages from MediaWiki here. In the meantime, you can find all the help you need [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents here]. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 12:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Google rankings==<br />
On 19 September 2007 (about 7 pm GMT), a search for 'Gargoyles' on Google turns up GargWiki at number 92 (the Gargoyles page on Wikiquote is 93). 'Gargoyles+Disney' is even worse at 132, and even then the link is to Category:Apocrypha (there's another link to the Episode Guide at 145). 'Gargoyles+TV' has a link to Grimorum at 18, but GargWiki doesn't appear until 75 (Talk:Main Page).<br />
<br />
Obviously, this is not a great situation to be in. Wikia has a few suggestions to improve the rankings [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/User:Toughpigs/10_steps_to_raise_your_wiki%27s_Google_ranking here]. Section 2 is particularly interesting. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:24, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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:So perhaps our rankings would be better if the name of the main page was something like "GargWiki - The Disney's Gargoyles Wiki" rather than the way we have it now, which Google may not get? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 19 September 2007<br />
<br />
::I don't feel that Google rankings are as important as other might think, and our priority should be to improve the content here as best we can. But regardless, whatever you do '''''don't spam or vandalize other sites with links to GargWiki'''''. It is precisely [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/G._Bishansky this] kind of behavior (see [http://gargoyles.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=2669 here] for a more specific example) that got us blocked from Wikipedia, and probably other sites as well. If that happens, we'll be down even ''lower'' than we are now with the rankings. So please keep that in mind. --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::That's true. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I never meant to even imply that spamming other sites was in any way a good thing. Cos it's not. Seriously.<br />
:::But changing the name of the Main Page might not be a bad idea, as long as we can do it without causing too much disruption. "GargWiki - The Gargoyles Wiki" is probably enough, or just "Gargoyles Wiki" as inour logo. But it might make the page look odd. I notice that the Main Pages on Wikipedia and Wikia sites don't have titles, as other pages do. Is there some way we could do that here? If not... maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:12, 19 September 2007 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Community Portal upgrade==<br />
I'm thinking of moving this page to [[GargWiki talk:Community Portal]], and turning [[GargWiki:Community Portal]] into an actual project page. I mean a proper "Welcome to the Community Portal, and here's what we got going on" sort of project page. We could have links to all the ongoing discussions throughout the wiki, which would be useful, and I'm also thinking of having a "Requested pages" section, where users can (basically) request a page. Thoughts? Comments? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:54, 8 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:Sounds like a good idea. This site really does need a page introducing new users or potential users to how things work around here. Plus we really need some guidelines, and given that there doesn't seem to exist any anywhere on this site, this would be good place to set some up.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 14:43, 11 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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::[[GargWiki:Policy]] has some behavioural guidelines, if that's what you mean. Is that what you meant? But anyway, since this could be a complicated reorganisation I'll start writing up a draft of the new page before I start doing anything. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:28, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
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:::I've written up a page - not quite everything I had originally intended, but it's a good start and we can always expand it later. I'll make the switch-over now. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:12, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
:::Done. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 09:20, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
==A history lesson==<br />
Does anyone here know how GargWiki came to be made? When was it started, and who by, and what prompted its creation? I'm just asking because it would be nice to get a little background (not necessarily a lot) to flesh out the page [[GargWiki:About]]. I know that it must have been created on or shortly before 26 July 2006, because that's the first edit I can find and it's also when [[User:Jeb]], [[User:Greg Bishansky]] and [[User:Trio]] were made administrators. If anyone does know, feel free to answer either here or at [[GargWiki talk:About]]... or just add the information to the page. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
== Upgrading the Wiki ==<br />
<br />
Looking into Matt's suggestion for an Appearances section, I've noticed that this wiki lacks some of the functionality of other wikis because it's out of date. In particular, the version of MediaWiki used here is 1.5.1, whereas the latest version is 1.11.0. Granted we usually don't use the full functionality of the wiki, but it's still useful to stay up to date. Not being a system admin, I can't update the wiki myself, but it would be nice if whoever is the system admin is would do so.<br />
<br />
As far as using Wikipedia's referencing system, to install it follow the installation instructions [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation here]. It's only two steps, but requires accessing the system, something I can't do, but a system admin would be able to do.<br />
<br />
P.S. Happy New Years to everyone! --[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 03:00, 1 January 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:I commented on this at [[Talk:Appearences Section]], but I'll repeat myself here: you can search for admins by using [[Special:Listusers]], but the ones that are most likely to be able to help you are Greg B, Matt, or Jeb.<br />
:Happy New Year to you too. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:34, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
Sounds like you guys know more about the Wikipedia software than I do. You'll have to talk to Jeb or Greg B. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 15:36, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
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:Alright, thanks. I'll inform Jeb and Greg B. on their talk pages and see it they can do something about it.--[[User:M m hawk|Moeen]] 15:44, 5 January 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
Ten years later, I now have access to the server. I haven't upgraded the wiki yet, but I will as soon as I am convinced I know what I'm doing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 2 March 2018 (PST)<br />
:Judging by the lack of dark colors, I'm guessing things are happening, here. Call me patient and excited to see what's in store :) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:22, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
::Still being worked on. We need to get the skins back in place, and there are other glitches to fix, but the wiki has been upgraded. Notice that the buttons are back. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:23, 4 March 2018 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Speculation ==<br />
<br />
Poking around the wiki, I think that there are a few too many places where personal speculation makes its way into the articles. Now there's speculation that I think is OK and speculation that I think doesn't belong here. Speculation that I think is OK is speculation that's based on established real world or Gargoyles universe fact. For example, since we know that gargoyle children generally receive physical characteristics from both parents, often favoring the appearance of the same gender parent and the coloration of the opposite gender parent, it would be fair to speculated that children of know gargoyle couples will probably resemble both of their parents, possibly even in that pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Artus will definitely look like a lavender Broadway, but the suggestion that he might have some of Broadway's physical features and Angela's coloring would be OK. If we didn't know that Elisa was going to be dead by 2198, I would consider it fair to say that she probably would be, given that she would be 230 years old by that time, which is well beyond human life expectancy as we currently know it. Short of major scientific breakthroughs or magical intervention, it would be safe to say that Elisa would probably not be around in roughly two centuries. I think Greg Weisman speculation is also fair game. greg has suggested, but never outright confirmed, that Zafiro and the gargoyle beasts may both have vestigial limbs, Zafiro due to appearing to be four limbed and the beasts as an evolutionary leftover from their common ancestor with gargoyles. I feel no problem with putting that in as canon-in-training as a possibility rather than a certainty until we either have Greg say it's not so (leading to it being deleted) or see someone take x-rays a Zafiro and/or the beasts (leading to it becoming canon). What I'm not OK with is speculation that is based more on guesses or predictions of character's behavior. I took a section out of Zafiro's article that suggested that his hair coloration and facial features could be presumed to be fairly common among the Mayan clan. We don't have any way of knowing that. We apparently know from Greg as canon-in-training that Zafiro's snake-like body structure is very common, despite the fact that he is the only current member of the clan to have it. But for all we know, he could be the only gargoyle in the Mayan clan with white hair and a serpentine face. Similarly, I think there's too much assumption about future hatchlings and their knowledge of their biological parentage. It is OK to assume that Nashville will have a closer relationship with Brooklyn and Katana for a while at least because they will be the only adult gargoyles he spends the majority of his time with. But once Brooklyn and family return to Manhattan, who knows? He may become particularly close to Angela or Broadway or Lex as well. And we have no evidence that Brooklyn and Katana will teach him to put importance on biological parentage. Yes, when he starts asking questions, he'll probably either be aware that Brook and Katana are his biological parents. But if they place no importance on that, if they tell him "We are two of your parents and we love you, but you have other parents and other family out there and some day you will get to see them and they will be just as much your family", it won't matter so much to him that the rest of the clan isn't related to him by blood. Same deal with Angela. It's more tempting to assume that she'll put more emphasis on biology because she is so interested in her own parentage. But things could change. When Nashville arrives and she actually sees the rest of the clan start to parent him, she may start to feel differently about what communal parenting really means. I think it's highly likely that she might tell her kids that she's their biological mother before they necessarily ask (though it's still not something I would assume). But I just don't think we can assume how she'll be raising kids who have yet to be conceived.<br />
<br />
Thoughts? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:47, 7 January 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
== Apocrypha ==<br />
At the head of any CIT article is a banner making it clear that's all it is. Shouldn't we have something similar for Apocrypha. To be clear, I think it's 100% appropriate for there to be articles here on, say, Dr. Phobos or Judge Bates, but shouldn't we have a (red?) flag of some kind at the top? -- gdw<br />
<br />
:This problem has been raised at [[Talk:Angels in the Night]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:26, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad this has come up again since the recent appearances of many of these apocrypha pages has beenn irking me. I like the idea a lot of a red flag banner at the top of such pages. I want this site to be about all things Gargoyles, including the non-canon stuff, but I think there needs to be a well seen line between the canon and the not canon, and that line is nearly invisible on pages like [[Dr. Phobos]] and [[Judge Bates]]. Frankly, I don't even like the apocyrpha sections on pages like [[Brooklyn]]. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:59, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:::If you do this, I think you should only provide the banners for in-universe apocryphal articles, and not the out-of-universe articles (issues, episodes, the video-game, etc.). -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:59, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
::::Actually, [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]], I was thinking this was something you'd be better at then myself. I have no idea how to create a banner. And I think we would all trust your skills and judgement. I don't mean to seem like I'm assigning you this though, but if you want to do it at some point, that'd be cool. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:45, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:::::To be honest, this is way down at the bottom of "things I plan to do". Way down. Since I'm not entirely settled on the idea anyway, I probably won't get round to it for a long while.<br />
:::::But making a banner isn't so hard. Have a look at the source code at [[Template:CIT article]], then just change the details a bit. You don't need to know what it all does (I don't), but you can figure out enough to get by. The text is easy to change, but you can also change the background (as long as you know the hex code of the colour you want) and other things. Then it's just a matter of tweaking until it looks the way you want it to. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:04, 7 February 2008 (CST)<br />
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::::::I've created a [[Template:Apocrypha article]] and implemented it on some TGC character pages. It's not quite a banner, but let me know what you think. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 06:49, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
I love it. Great job man! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 08:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I'm a little bit concerned that some people might not see it because it's so small and so far over to the right. But otherwise, I think it works quite well. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 09:37, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::I've increased the width and the font size a small amount, so hopefully it should be a bit more noticeable. Better? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:48, 26 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yes. I hadn't realized that the banner hang out at the right edge of the window, regardless of size, so I withdraw my concern about it being too far to the right. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:31, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Joining GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
Okay, we ''really'' need a mechanism set up by which new users can join GargWiki. If we're still concerned about spamming, then we should get a system that is completely disconnected: something like the Ask Greg comment room, but just for this... Or we could actually redirect users to the Ask Greg comment room. Get them to say 'I have registered as such-and-such, please allow me to edit GargWiki'. Or something. Would this be possible? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 07:13, 4 February 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
:Could someone please attend to Antiyonder's request for editing powers? (I still feel like going through Station Eight is a pretty awkward way to go about this.) -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 10:36, 6 September 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Dbdude01]] posted earlier today in the S8 Comment Room for editing privileges . . . from the Recent Changes page, looks like he registered on August 10th --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:20, 18 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
::Got it. Thanks, Pheon. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 10:29, 21 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
:::No prob, it's nice to see you around these parts as well man :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:19, 21 August 2015 (PDT) <br />
<br />
== Family tree ==<br />
<br />
Behold! A day and a half of my life wasted: [[User:Supermorff/Tree]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:That is very cool Great job, Supermorff. Hey, are you going to the Gathering this year? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 07:06, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Nice job! Do you think we could put it in an article with a text version that would allow people to easily get to the articles for all these individuals? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 07:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::I had wanted to use the same templates as they use at Wikipedia (have a look, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Normandy#Family_tree), in which each box can contain arbitrary wiki markup (including links), but our current version of the MediaWiki software doesn't seem to support that. We could do another version with links, but plotting family trees in text alone is difficult and looks a bit rubbish if it's not done well. Might be worth a try though.<br />
::As for the Gathering, alas I will not be able to make it. My last year of university is wrapping up, and I have suspicions that two flights acros the Atlantic would not help me with revision. I could be wrong. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:29, 29 April 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Another Character Page Idea==<br />
So, I'd say the Appearences sections on the character pages have been great and have really added to the information on this site. So, in response to the success of that section, I have another idea. Notable Quotes. Just take 1-5 quotes from a character and put them on the page if we want to. I was thinking making a new section called Notable Quotes and adding them there. I wouldn't want more than five or so, least it get cluttered. Another idea is putting a quote at the top of the character's page, but I feel that there is too much going on up there already. So, what do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:31, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Hmm. Maybe. I am skeptical. Couldn't we just link to [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles the ''Gargoyles'' page at Wikiquote]? On the Main Page maybe? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 04:21, 8 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==MediaWiki software update==<br />
Has there been any progress on updating the MediaWiki software that this site uses? I tried adding the possibility of collapsible tables. It didn't seem too complicated when I read how to do it, but it hasn't worked anyway, at least not as expected. I assume it's just not compatible with the version we've got. The current stable version of MediaWiki is 1.12, and we're still running 1.5. Time for an upgrade? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== image requests ==<br />
<br />
:''Moved from [[GargWiki:Community Portal#Requested images]]''<br />
Hi, guys. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be fulfilling these image requests soon now that I have plenty of time on my hands. I hope to have them done by the weekend. Take care! [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 12:20, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
:Thanks DTaina! You rock!!! -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:46, 7 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Hey, guys. DT here. If you know of any articles that have low quality pics (such as VCR screenshots or logos), or if you just want more pics, don't hesitate to let me know so I can get to work. [[User:Dtaina|D Taina]] 17:25, 9 May 2008 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
==Just a thought==<br />
So, I'm thinking of creating a [[Misconceptions and urban legends about Gargoyles]] page. Mostly as an answer to a lot of really wacky theories I've seen out there. Some, like ''"Gargoyles was originally an anime," "Disney hates Gargoyles and conspired to kill it," "Space-Spawn look like gargoyles," "The Gathering of the Gargoyles is always in Montreal," "Goliath embraced the human way in Mark of the Panther," "Lexington can't be gay because he went after Angela,"'' and so on and so forth. Thoughts? Suggestions? -{{unsigned|Greg Bishansky}}<br />
<br />
:I like the page so far and the concept in general. I think we just need to figure out places we could link to it from so it's not just sitting there all by its lonesome. Possibilities include the Gargoyles TV series page and places in character or episode articles that mention these misconceptions. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 14:38, 6 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Owen/Puck==<br />
Okay, so far, we've merged all alternate identities for characters into single entries. Molly and Banshee are now merged. Jon and John are now merged, etc. What do we do about Owen and Puck? I asked Greg his thoughts and even he thinks that one is not so clear cut. ''"It's a judgement call. I'd tend to combine them under a Puck/Owen Burnett entry with both the Puck and the Owen Burnett entries redirecting. But I think you should discuss it with the gwiki crew. Get a consensus."'' So, thoughts? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:I think it can go either way. I see no problem with having them in separate entries, but if you guys want to change it, then that's fine by me. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 17:55, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:It's a tough call. It would make sense to do the merge of aliases and alternate forms across the board. But the Puck/Owen thing just feels a little different. Aliases are fairly simple: you just pick the name that the character either had first or uses most frequently. "Dominique Destine" is just Demona's human alias. "Talon" is the name Derek Maza adopted after he was mutated, but his family still calls him "Derek." Alternate forms for one of Oberon's children are a little more difficult, but it seems that there's usually a primary identity we can all agree on, like with Banshee. And speaking of Banshee, her disguise was revealed in the same episode where she was introduced. The fact that Owen is Puck, of course, wasn't revealed until near the end of season two. And Puck is more dedicated to playing his role than any other fey we've seen with the possible exception of Titania (and even in that case, there isn't the marked difference in personality between Titania and Anastasia that there is between Owen and Puck). Owen almost is a separate person because Puck is committed to making him one. So should Owen retain a separate entry? And on a more practical note, would we be looking at an unusually long article if we merged the two or just less repetition? -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] 20:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
I definitely think they should not be merged. As [[User:Demonskrye]] said, they are two totally different entities. I think it's fine as is.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:53, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
Also, I'm not too crazy about merging [[Titania]] and Anastasia Renard. It feels too confusing to me for appearances sections and so on...what about episodes like [[Walkabout]] where Anastasia appears but not Titania. Just my two cents.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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:I suppose if we are going to be consistent be have to merge them together. I mean with Talon/Derek, Jon/John the merger seems fairly easy and obvious and not very problematic. They are, afterall, the same person using alias'. With Oberon's Children, I wonder... PGFish makes a good point about appearances section issues. I dunno. The more I think about it, the tougher it seems. ultimately though, I feel we should be consistent. Puck and Owen are the same entity. Puck and Owen can't exist at the same time anymore than Derek and Talon can. So, I suppose I'd go for merging them. As for the Appearances Sections, I suppose we need to be consistent there as well and list all the episodes where either Puck or Owen (or any other alias' used by that entity) have appeared. It may be confusing, but simply remember that we are following the person, not the form of the person. Puck is always Puck, even when he is pretending to be Owen. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:47, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Yes, but Puck isn't Puck when he's Owen. It's not simply an alias, but a seperate entity. When Owen is around, Puck doesn't exist.--[[User:PGFish|PGFish]] 01:01, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:This is exactly the reason I have by-and-large been against merging aliases and alternate identities, because I knew this was where it was heading. I firmly believe that Puck and Owen should have separate pages.<br />
:Before I get down to my personal opinions, here are a few logistical facts:<br />
:1. The naming issue. You can't very well call the merged page "Owen Burnett", since Owen is an identity created by Puck. You can't call it "Puck" because Puck has appeared in just 4 episodes, compared to Owen's 30+. You also can't call the page "Puck/Owen" or similar, because this will create a subpage of "Puck", which is a redirect and it will wreak havoc with the MediaWiki software. So where do you stick a page like this?<br />
:2. Do we intend to merge the various sections as well? Will we merge the Appearances sections? If so, are we going to list appearances (As Puck) or (As Owen), which we've avoided in other cases? Will we just keep two separate Appearances sections? Will we merge the History sections, and mention "As Owen", or "As Puck" every other paragraphs? What's the point?<br />
:Now for my personal opinions: We don't ''gain'' anything by merging the two articles, except a heaping pile of confusion for new visitors. If I wanted to look for specific information on Puck, I would not look in Owen's article, so I fail to see the benefit in forcing me to look through a combined article for both characters. And yes, I do believe that they are separate characters, not just because they have different appearances, voice actors and personalities. They also have very different spheres of influence in the ''Gargoyles'' universe - spheres which only overlap at young Alex.<br />
:Something to consider when comparing this to other examples: The once-separate identities of Anastasia and Titania have now mostly been combined. Does anyone expect that Anastasia will ever appear again, with no mention of Titania? And yet Owen continues to appear without mention that he is Puck. I wouldn't (in all honesty) be surprised if Puck appeared without mention that he was Owen. So those two situations are not really comparable.<br />
:Also, whereas Anastasia and Titania were written (and cast) with the knowledge that it would be revealed that they were the same person. It wasn't until "The Mirror" was already written that the writers realised that Owen and Puck were the same person. In all the other cases that we've merged, there has never really been any doubt that the two characters/names/identities were always supposed to be "the same". With Owen and Puck, they were initially different and later combined (obviously it made perfect sense and worked beautifully, but that's not the point).<br />
:My final thought: Consistency, which is all fine and dandy, is a secondary consideration to making the best, clearest and most helpful encyclopedia that we can. We don't need to minimize the number of articles we've got, and this isn't Wikipedia in which we'd need to merge all similar characters just so they're notable enough to be mentioned at all. Merging in ''this'' case is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
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<br />
:On a separate-but-related note, the Owen article is woefully short. More than half of the History section is actually about Puck, which could well be causing some of the confusion. We should expand the history section - give specific examples of Owen doing his job (keeping Elisa out in "The Edge", pulling a gun in "Enter Macbeth", taking the swab in "Double Jeopardy", summoning the commandoes in "Masque" and "Bash"). Some parts of the Characteristics section (such as his turning to stone by Demona, and his gaining a stone hand) should be mentioned in the History section in their proper context. We should mention that he's good at judo. We should add the anecdote about Owen being written with some unknown secret in his backstory, and then say how Greg and several other writers ''realized'', simultaneously and separately, that Owen and Puck were the same person. We should re-word the opening paragraph, so that Owen seems to be a character in his own right and not just some alias used by Puck, because he's more than that, and we should treat him as such. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 08:45, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Okay, after reading what Supermorff had to say, I want to change my vote. I think Owen and Puck should remain seperate. I think I know how to work this all out. I think alias' should be merged so Dominique Destine should be with Demona, John Castaway and Jon Canmore should be the same page, Talon and Derek, etc. These are the exact same person using different names and perhaps looking or acting different, but they are not new people. Meanwhile, alternate identities should remain seperate because they are two different people. <br />
::So, alias' merge, alternate identities remain seperate. What do you think? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 21:23, 12 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
:::I agree with Supermorff 100%, too. You guys have my vote! [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:29, 13 June 2008 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Young character pictures ==<br />
<br />
Recently a lot of pictures have been added of younger versions of several characters. These picures look great, and thanks both to GregW for suggesting the idea and DTaina for doing the hard work and providing them all! However, I would like to suggest that some of them be re-labelled to include either the age of the character or the year being depicted. So [[Princess Katharine]] is the best way of doing it (by the way, we need a young one of her too), but many others are less clear (I'm not sure why, but [[Bodhe]] seems like a particularly bad offender to me). Anyone agree? Disagree? Like pancakes? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:30, 16 January 2009 (CST)<br />
:Makes sense to me.--[[User:Gweisman|Gweisman]] 01:42, 17 January 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==A Scottish Family Tree==<br />
So, I unfortunately lack the photoshop skills, but I want to make a Family Tree of the Scottish royal family for the wiki. From [[Kenneth mac Alpin]] all the way down to [[Luach]] and [[Canmore]]. Anyone up for it? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 23:01, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:I was just pondering that this afternoon, actually. I'd suggest using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Familytree The end result then supports hyperlinks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_family#Family_tree I can do it, but not until after the Gathering. I'd have to import additional templates too. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 23:16, 14 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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::This has already been done! [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] has already made one [[User:Supermorff/Tree|here]]. It could perhaps use some updating given the new information, however. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 16:12, 15 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
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:::I'm willing to update this and format it into a [[Scottish Royalty]] page or something, if Supermorff doesn't mind. But I'll need the original code. The family trees I've found are image files. -[[User:Lumpmoose|lumpmoose]] 22:53, 30 August 2009 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::::When I started doing this (a very ''very'' ling time ago), I wanted to create the Familytree template here. However, I think we have out-of-date MediaWiki software on this site, so all I could do was produce the sourcecode and copy the picture from another wiki. The sourcecode is all listed on that page Matt linked to, but it won't work here. If you could make it work, I'd love to see it on its own page! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:31, 25 December 2009 (CST)<br />
<br />
==Things of a more... "adult" nature==<br />
So, thanks to Blue Mug-A-Guests at various Gatherings, and occasional tidbits at Ask Greg, I'm wondering, do we stick any of this into the GargWiki? We always said we'd be all encompassing. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:15, 13 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Can we provide sources for it? Stuff at AskGreg is fair game, but I'm hesitant to add things directly from Blue Mug-a-Guests unless someone posted about it at AskGreg, thus giving Greg a chance to correct or whatever.<br />
:It being of adult nature doesn't bother me at all. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 12:10, 14 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Well, I started with a tiny one in Demona's entry, just to see how well it goes over. Maybe if it's not too awkward, we can add more where appropriate. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:59, 26 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And here's some bits from the Blue Mug, not sure where to put them in the entries, but I thought we'd keep them here for info. A bit of it is off. Greg never said Lex and Staghart would have sex, for example. And Jackal and Hyena are NOT having incestuous sex; they'll share someone, but Jackal isn't weird enough for Hyena. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 08:27, 10 July 2014 (PDT)<br />
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<br />
[[Image:BM1.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM2.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
[[Image:BM3.png|thumb|360px|]]<br />
<br />
==Weapons==<br />
So, DTaina had a great idea about putting together entries for weapons. Kinda like what we did for [[Exo-Frame]]. Still trying to think of how we'd do it. Obviously, particle beams need an entry. Demona's various big fucking guns could get an entry. I'd love it to be [[Demona's Big Fucking Guns]] but I won't fight for it ;) --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:40, 20 April 2010 (CDT)<br />
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==New Screenshots==<br />
You may have noticed some screenshots getting replaced by higher quality PNG files. Well, recently DTaina and I downloaded the latter half of season two in German. The quality of the video and picture is beautiful. DVD quality even. Much better than the ToonDisney and Jetix versions we've been using. So, for characters that popped up in episodes not on DVD, we'll be replacing their images with high quality PNG files. This will be a timely process, I think. But worth it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 14:49, 16 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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:Already noticing the improvement! Nice work! -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 16:45, 17 August 2010 (CDT)<br />
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== Images ==<br />
<br />
I see lots of [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|unused images]] on the database. May I delete them, or do you guys prefer to stow images for later use? Also, I'd like to categorize images using a simple template I usually customize for each wiki in which I'm most active. Upon community approval, this would also be dependent of us having parser function work. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 07:06, 14 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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:You just linked to the uncategorised files. Unused files are [[Special:UnusedFiles|here]]. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 00:28, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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::Doh. That's what I meant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 02:13, 15 May 2011 (PDT)<br />
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==Criteria for "Non-Canon" Art by Canon Artists==<br />
Since this issue just hit the fan, maybe it's time we really discussed this, and came up with official rules. I think a MAIN PIC needs to show the character off as best we can. If Greg Guler or Frank Paur were releasing art of characters, I'd be all for including them also. In other words, I want those pics up, so let's revise these rules. Here is what I'm thinking:<br />
<br />
Unofficial art by official artists is welcome on GargWiki. Encouraged even. But there should be certain criteria. Depicting a canon character is perfect. Depicting a non-canon scene is not allowed. For example, we have two main pics from Karine Charlebois. One depicting Katana and one depicting the Redemption Squad. Both are terrific and fit the proposed criteria perfectly. However, art of, let's say for example, Katana fighting Hakon even by an official artist like Charlebois or Paur, cannot be used because such a thing hasn't taken place in canon.<br />
<br />
Karine also has beautiful art of Brooklyn up, with everything we've seen since the end of "[[Phoenix]]." Except for the eye-patch. And since we don't know when he received his injury relative to when he received all his weapons and the armor, that art would not meet our criteria.<br />
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What do you all think? Thoughts? Suggestions? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 10:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I vote for canon pics. I feel that the purity of the canon material is more important than whether or not it looks good. Take Wikipedia for example. How many articles have you seen with grainy and badly drawn pictures of TV show characters, even though higher quality fanart pictures have always been available? We can have character models that were drawn behind the scenes. And we can have fanart here and there, but it shouldn't dominate the canon material. For me, canon and CiT should be above everything. And you guys can always count on me to touch up canon screenshots or scans that look a little sub par. What do you guys think? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:04, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::Taina, I think you missed what was being said. We're discussing revising the rules, with a VERY STRICT criteria to allow us to use the best resources we have. And as for wikipedia... I think it is a TERRIBLE website full of misinformation that is dumbing us down as a culture, and I refuse to use them as an authority on anything. And [http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality|Stephen Colbert agrees with me] ;)--[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:11, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::I'd revise the rules to never let fanart take the top spot. As a fan artist myself, I think I know where I'm coming from on this. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 11:24, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::::Yes, but you aren't a canon artist doing a fan-art, really the only ones who can respond to this with weight are Karine, Greg Guler, Frank Paur, Chris Jones, and anyone else who worked on the designs in the show/comic. For my part, I can see both sides of the argument, and have remained relatively neutral in these proceedings, however, if I am to cast a vote, I vote with in favor of GregXB's proposal providing that all of the safeguards and requirements he has requested are strictly enforced. --[[User:Griffinwyrm7|Griffinwyrm7]] 11:32, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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: Perhaps if the non-canon pics included some form of disclaimer identifying them as such in the captions? I'm not opposed to revising the rules, provided whatever rule we do eventually decide on is both clear and unambiguous. [[User:Algernon|Algernon]] 12:03, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:: I agree with Greg that we should attempt to use the best picture available. But to me, the best picture available will always be canon over non-canon (or CiT) by default. Greg, I had the same thought about Karine's Brooklyn art in regards to the eye patch and armor and stuff and you should be able to see that by the same logic we cannot include the Katana picture. We have never seen Katana and the Phoenix together. I admit, I'm sure she has seen it plenty, but in the canon it has yet to happen. Therefore, by your own logic, the Katana picture isn't canon and shouldn't be allowed. But regardless of whether you accept that argument or not, the majority seems to be against the picture as the main pic, but fine with the compromose of having it lower on the page. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 14:58, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:::Matt, no offense, but you are reaching so far, I want to ask you how the food in China is tasting. And what majority? There are three in favor of the pic... and who knows who else is going to come in to vote. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 15:44, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Matt: If I read you correctly, your comment actually supports Greg's proposal. Greg said that we know Brooklyn will receive his injury and his gear, but not when. By the same logic, we know that Katana will someday travel with Brooklyn by way of the Phoenix, but not when. Unless Greg Weisman joins Scientology or something else that might severely distort the master plan, we know it's going to happen. So I don't see any harm in Karine's Katana pic. If someday we get more canon Gargoyles in some form and a better pic of Katana comes along, I would be in favor of using that pic instead. But right now, I think Karine's is the best we have. --[[User:Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
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:::Except that it isn't canon. The fact that it is or isn't a superior pic is irrelevant. The quality of the picture is not the point. The point is that this site has always been about putting canon first, then CiT, then apocrypha. Bishansky has been one of the strongest supporters of this policy. It is only when that policy conflicts with his personal desires that he decides that a discussion needs to be had about the matter. At best, Karine's Katana picture only qualifies as CiT and the canon picture should take precedence.<br />
:::Look, Greg, this is a wiki. If you want your own Gargoyles site where you can do whatever you want regardless of what others think, that's fine. But don't try to hijack this site for that purpose. The community-based nature of this site means that we don't all always get our way. For instance, I HATE the negative and immature "reviews" of various apocrypha elements (specifically some TGC episodes) and I am greatly annoyed by the subjective statements, stupid captions, crude jokes and other unproffesional edits that litter many of the pages on this wiki. And I know I am not alone or even in the minority on a lot of it. But I choose my battles because this isn't my site. And it isn't yours either. It is a work of the all the contributors. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:29, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::::Matt, was there really a need to get this personal? Really. Yes, this is a community. Look at all the people here discussing this issue. I didn't just change the rules willy nilly. I called for an official discussion on this, and made a proposal. A proposal that we are discussing and voting on already. Yes, it was a little inappropriate to make that remark about how far you're reaching, I get that. But you had to get really personal. So stop accusing me of being Sauron. Were I Sauron, I'd have blocked everyone and done what I wanted, but no... I wanted to have an actual discussion and vote. And from the looks of things, you don't have the majority you were boasting about. Hell, we even had Katana's designer, Robby Bevard, another canon artist, come in and say the one in the comic is off model. If you have personal issues with me, you have my e-mail address. For the record, I have no personal issues with you. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:07, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Matt: Do you specifically know someone who likes the Goliath Chronicles? If you do, please invite them to defend their opinions here. And I would also like to add that I wrote a very unflattering article about the Assassin on this wiki, which someone edited. And I respected that, because my opinions on the Assassin exist on other sites. But what is being suggested here does not seem unflattering. --[Harvester of Eyes]]<br />
<br />
I designed Katana, and colored the issue she appeared in. Ben Dunn was incredibly off model in many, many respects, (The world will never know just how much I had to redraw, and how much more I wished I had time for...) and had no knowledge of the series, he was ONLY brought on because deadlines needed to be met. As it is, I redrew half the pages Katana appeared on anyway and had to add all the weapons on Brooklyn. It was NOT the optimal art. If I'd had more time before the deadline, or the artist had been more open to redrawing pages, she'd be closer to on model and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion in the first place. I'd say use the cleaner full body shot by a different artist that worked on the books. Deadlines are the bane of this sort of thing... Didn't Enter Macbeth have retakes done? Didn't Vows have its ending changed after the first airing? Didn't the mutates all get complete redesigns after their first appearance? I'd say, at the very least, have the professional full body shot (by one of the folks that worked on the comic!) available on the wiki for viewing, even if its not the first and foremost pic.--[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 17:56, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:I agree that Karine's art can stay, but it shouldn't be the foremost pic. It should be canon and CiT first, right? [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:02, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Makes sense to me. I hate the final product as it appeared in the book for a variety of reasons, but... canon should be first. Maybe it can be really small. As is, I've always assumed that Katana will have some sort of redesign or tweaking anyway whenever she next appears in some form of media. Since the final art really was not good or ideal. --[[User:Robbybevard|Robbybevard]] 18:17, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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::I'm glad you agree Robby. And thanks for all your hard work, by the way.<br />
::As far as I can tell, no one has suggested that Karine's picture be completely taken off the site. Everyone seems to be alright with it being on Katana's page somewhere. It really just comes down to some of us prefering quality over canon and some of us prefering canon over quality. Obviously, I'm in the latter group.<br />
::As for the TGC pages. There are fans who like TGC. I'm not one of them, but that isn't the point. The point is that those pages take this site down a lot in my opinion. Most of us strive to make this site professional and objective and canon-centered and those pages make the site seem like a joke. And most of us are not laughing. That is my opinion, of course. I'd prefer to do away with all the nonsense myself, but I'm content to only worry about the canon and CiT material and resign myself to the fact that others will use this site to attack Gargoyles apocryphal material they didn't like.<br />
::Which brings me back to Katana. As a canon page with a depicted canon character I feel we should focus on her canon appearence. For good or ill, the canon picture is the canon picture for now and nothing is going to change that. If Karine (or whomever) produces a better quality CANON picture down the road, I'd love to replace the current canon picture with the new one. But until that point, what we have is what we have.<br />
::Or perhaps we should enlist Karine or other canon artists in re-drawing all the art we don't like into non-canon portraits and landscapes for use as canon material. Please. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 18:23, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
:::Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen. I'm fine with fixing up little animation errors, editing out grain and logos... but it has to stop somewhere. [[User:Dtaina|DTaina]] 18:30, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
::So recap -- this is really TWO issues in one -- 1) Do we allow unofficial art by official artists on GargWiki? AND 2) Would an unofficial piece of art be OK to take the main focus of the article, in particular, in cases when Canon material is ''also'' available (especially when the quality of the two works is being considered). The first issue is clearly the most non-controversial -- Everyone seems loves Karine's work on Katana, myself included (and that's not to mentioning her other unofficial work featured in the [[Dingo]], [[Redemption Squad]] and [[Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns]] pages). In my eye, the precedence of unofficial art by official artists is what allows us to have CIT to ''begin with'' -- Greg Weisman's own continued and unofficial work as creator of the show. As for the second issue, I give my vote for Canon material before CIT and anything else unofficial (this is why Apocrypha is located at the bottom of a character's page and why CIT is tagged at the top of the page or marked in {{CIT|blue type}} . . . but that doesn't mean that the unofficial work by the official artists can't be included in the Wiki. Just trying to clear things up a bit while adding my own two cents --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:36, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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Tallying it all up, okay, I lost. Cool. That's democracy. We had an official discussion, and for now, I lost it. That's what democracy is. Good thing I don't throw my weight around here and behave like a dictator like certain people like to insinuate, and then not apologize when they get called on it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (PST)<br />
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:Based on the outcome of this discussion, I've swapped back the positions of the Katana images so that the canon image appears first. (This seems to have slightly mucked up the position of the other images on the page, so if someone can figure out how to fix that please do - I'm sure this has changed since we upgraded wiki software.)<br />
:Robby, your comments about the process and the final artwork are very interesting. Would you be opposed to having them on the relevant wiki articles? -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:59, 20 January 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
==JEB's Resignation==<br />
JEB recently resigned as our administrator. Of course we here at GargWiki thank him for getting this site started and for doing as much as he did since it's inception... which was quite a bit behind the scenes. How ever, we need another admin to become the primary point of contact for technical or administrative issues from this point forward. Scott Sakai (who runs the server with Gorebash) can take care of the patching and other server-side activities. However, someone else would need to take care of the administrative tasks (i.e. everything else that is done through the web interface). I would do it, but I have no idea how. So, is anyone interested in the position? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 11:47, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:I also have no idea how. I doubt any of the regular editors know how. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 13:21, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::No idea here either. I was gonna recommend Supermorff! Guess not. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 17:03, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::Yeah, my first instincts said Supermorff too. Hmm, anyone else? I think Thogial has some wiki experience. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:17, 16 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::I've left Thogial a message about it. If he can't do it, I'm willing to learn. (Although I'll be busy for the next three weeks or so. After that, I'll be willing to learn.) -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:41, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::I'm afraid I'm not the guy. I do have wiki experience; I know my way around CSS, though I'm (almost) totally ignorant of Javascript. However, I'm not entirely sure my experience would address the needs of this site... At Wikia we run wikis via CSS and JS, but here I gather it's more like a web hosting forum site (web interface and whatnot) and I've never done that. You're looking for someone who knows how to solve problems when they occur--not someone who needs to learn how to do it first. For instance, I have no clue on how to solve the software issue we've had since you moved the site...<br />
:::::On the other hand, if we can't find a suitable replacement, then the best alternative would be something as per Supermorff's suggestion: we round up three or four members to chime in and learn who to do it, intuitively or otherwise. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 05:51, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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Hi, JEB here. I really don't think it should be that hard to replace me on the web side of the wiki; anyone who's had wiki and admin experience (like most of you above) should be able to do it after a quick review of the options on Special Pages. There's also plenty of advice on operating Mediawiki wikis on the web. Whoever steps up to the plate, I thank him and wish him well. [[User:Jeb|Jeb]] 14:09, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:Hey, Jeb. Well if that's the case, then I'd be happy to lend a hand. But not alone. Must this be a one man's job? Because I'd feel more comfortable with some backup... Supermorff? If we can share the load, I'm game. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 15:03, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
:I could try my best to learn also. So, what do you say? Supermoff, Thogial, and I sharing the load? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 17:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::The more the merrier. Since you two have been here the longest, I'll be L-3. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::Woot! I get to be Vandal Savage! ... and shadows still conceal our light! -[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 18:23, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::I get to be nigh immortal and with an army of assassins at my disposal. Supermorff gets to be bald. :p -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 18:53, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:::::No, L-3 is bald, that's you. I get the army of assassins and a name that is constantly mispronounced. More than happy to help out here too, though. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 02:15, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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::::::Oh crap, that's right. Oh well, I get the hot assistant. [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 03:47, 18 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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:Well, you three have my vote -- JEB, thanks for everything you've done for the GargWiki (especially since its probably stuff I'll never fully realize) -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:07, 17 March 2012 (PDT)<br />
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''*Face scrambling mode: ON.*'' So, what's the situation regarding this matter? --[[User:Thogial|Thogial]] 09:08, 4 April 2012 (PDT)<br />
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==Apocrypha appearances==<br />
A friend mentioned on Facebook: ''"So the GargWiki doesn't list characters' episode appearances from the third season. That's decidedly unhelpful regardless of whether or not it's canon."'' He was looking for Fox's TGC appearances. While this is not unreasonable, the Appearances section on the character pages is designed for canon only. And then what, do we log all the Marvel Comic appearances? All the Disney Adventures comic appearances? I'm not against it, but this is something that will need to be discussed, researched, because it would be a large project. I definitely don't want it incorporated into the main appearances section on each page, though. And, to be honest, I don't want to be the one to do this. The last thing I want to do is re-visit TGC. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] 20:52, 6 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
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:While i think it is great that this Wiki has always been home to all things "Gargoyles" I think it is pretty clear that we are strongly biased to the canon. So for this to go down I'd suggest one or both of two things. 1. Make a seperate appearances section within the apocrypha sections of each characters page listing what apocrypha episodes/issues they appeared in and 2. Make an appearance list on each apocrypha page saying who was in the TGC episode or Marvel issue. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] 00:58, 7 August 2013 (PDT)<br />
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== Archmage's time loop ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
Hi, everyone. So it's that time of the year when I binge re-watch ''Gargoyles'' and I am up to the "Avalon" three-parter. As always I tried to make sense of the Archmage's time loop, but to no avail, but this time I decided to make some research. I found [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/faq20.htm this] long reply from GW and a few short ones [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12991] [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13167] that helped some. For me, Griff's time loop was always easier to understand than the Archmage's, maybe because the latter involved both of his selves, while the former involves a [[Goliath|third party]]. I was never at any convention, so I never saw GW explaining the loop with a diagram, so I made my own from what I understand of the loop and GW's explanations. Am I close? Does anyone have any comments/explanations? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 16:36, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
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:Awesome diagram, Thogial! Yep, visually, that looks pretty darn accurate to how Greg's typically described it (and how I, at the least, always made sense out of it). That said, while I see it in the arrow's paths, the diagram could probably still use some written explanation that the Enhanced Archmage (that led the proto-Archmage through time), following his younger self (now enhanced)'s departure back to 984, goes on to attack Oberon's Palace. Maybe even include his death in 1995, if there's room. In any event, the final version has to go on [[Archmage|his]] page, as well as "[[Avalon Part Two|Avalon]]" Part Two page --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:56, 31 August 2015 (PDT)<br />
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::How's that? -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 06:19, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
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:::<nowiki>**thumbs up**</nowiki> Seriously, great work Thogial :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:16, 6 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
::::Thanks. :) I took the liberty of putting some dissertation around it. -- [[User:Thogial|Thogial]] ([[User talk:Thogial|talk]]) 11:30, 19 September 2015 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Canon is coming ==<br />
So, here's the question... how long should we wait before adding spoilers to the GargWiki? Obviously, we can edit the new issues' pages right away, but... do we update character entries at once, or should we give it a few days to a week? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
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:If memory serves right, I felt we added spoiler content to the wiki pretty quickly -- issue pages, characters, objects, etc . . . not to mention converting CIT to Canon and adding new canon-in-training when reasonable, but those edits were usually tagged as containing spoiler content in the edit summary/notes. Invisible Spoiler tags were the etiquette and expectation for Station 8 reviews and discussions. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:05, 9 October 2022 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Appearances ==<br />
<br />
Okay, I've got two thoughts here. We've got another spin-off coming, "Gargoyles: Dark Ages" and how do we want to deal with this in the Appearances sections on character pages? Should we leave it as is, and add the appearance in the order the issue comes out... or should we undertake the big project of dividing the Appearances sections on character pages into different series? For example: "Appearances in Gargoyles", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Bad Guys", "Appearances in Gargoyles: Dark Ages"? Someone like Demona appears in all three, for example. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I would personally prefer we keep the style we adopted with ''[[Gargoyles: Bad Guys]]'' -- Dividing up the appearances doesn't seem consistent to the intentions of the wiki. Best case, it amounts to a lot of rearranging, and worst case it could leave the impression that the main comic (or the original series) has more weight than the rest (which I can comfortably suspect is not the opinion of anyone here). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:43, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::That makes sense, because then why not have a Goliath Chronicles appearances section? Or Marvel and Disney Adventures? But I am open to a counterargument. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 10:55, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::With all canon material I think we should list appearances in order of official release of the media. So if a character appears in Gargoyles Chapter 7, then Dark Ages Chapter 1, then Gargoyles Chapter 8, we will list their appearances in that order. My two cents, of course. If we want to put TGC, marvel comic book material, etc in an appearances list in the apocrypha section, thats fine, but I generally don't care about non-canon stuff. Should be its own thing though. [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 12:54, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::It has been noted elsewhere that while the editors on this wiki cover all things related to ''Gargoyles'', our preferred interest historically prioritizes canon and {{CIT|canon-in-training}}. I'd opt also for establishing a precedent for an appearances subsection under a character's Apocrypha section. [[Demona]] is probably the best example of possibilities, with multiple non-canonical appearances on screen, page, stage, and device(? I'm thinking video games here, which, for the Demona page specifically, looks like it needs some toggling anyhow). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 12:59, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::::The Demona page might be our second biggest page outside of the timeline. And maybe it does need to be broken up in places. For example, look at all the Megatron pages on TFWiki: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Megatron_(G1) . But I agree, let's leave the Appearance section as is. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 13:11, 11 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
OH! Apologies, I should have mentioned this earlier. One change I have made in the Appearances section a month or so back, each column now has a cap of twenty-five titles. Once we hit twenty-five, we start a new column. We can increase or decrease this, but I'd like it uniform. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 08:48, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Sounds good to me. Hopefully, we eventually have to tackle the problem of too many columns! [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 09:28, 12 May 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== New Releases ==<br />
<br />
So, at what point is something no longer a "new release" (boy, I love that we're now asking this question). Right now, I'm operating on a year, but is that too much? For example, NECA Hudson was released last September; that's nine months. Is it still new? --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:12, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
: For NECA, I'm undecided, but for the comics (of which, anectodally, my local shop currently only has leftovers of "A Little Crazy" still on the shelves), I was figuring we take the first six off the New Release list once the first trade debuts. And, no idea what the traffic is here, but I haven't plugged the trade on the Coming Soon section so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing those first six issues. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 11:06, 22 June 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Thinking about names like a human==<br />
In recognizing that we will be inundated with placeholder-names for the various gargoyle characters from ''Dark Ages'', and seeing some inconsistency pop up across the wiki (and occasionally on the same page), I wanted to bring up an idea to standardize our approach. <br />
<br />
While we certainly want to continue prioritizing canonical names like Coldstone and Coldfire to Othello and Desdemona, for all intents and purposes, the characters we refer to as Second, Sacrifice, and Verity will never (barring time travel) have a true name in any canon work. So I do find it a bit silly to keep throwing quotes around their placeholder-names when nothing more concrete (pun somewhat intended) is anticipated.<br />
<br />
Any edits I've made quoting a character's placeholder/behind-the-scenes name have been made when we've no real other way to distinguish them from names a character gave to themselves or were received by others in the series. Names like True and Hyppolyta certainly aren't apocryphal, but it's a flavor of non-canon that can’t ever really ''become'' canon, so the canon-in-training template doesn't fit. <br />
<br />
BUT, inspired by our ever-helpful CIT template, I whipped up and tinkered with (in previews mode), a different-colored template for characters that had no true name. In essence, the placeholder-name would be bolded in gray type. This color choice can be adjusted of course, but the idea is that whatever color chosen and settled on (if we did go this route) would not jar too much from the white text and contrast well enough from the blue backgrounds and bluer-CIT type. (I also liked the gray because a passive, stony-looking color fit well opposite to that of an actively used name.) <br />
<br />
I've also included a hover text that gets highlighted when a cursor is over the name: '''"This is not the character's true name."''' That phrasing can also be tinkered with, but it does work for situations ranging from Iago (in the credits) to Kermit (only in the script). (More on Mentor & Angel below.)<br />
<br />
At the moment, I've tinkered the template tag with the name NoTrueName, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. NoNames or something pithier could be hashed out later.<br />
<br />
To sum up, in the overall desire that we have a consensus for being consistent one way or another, our options for writing articles with characters that are lacking true names include:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Option 1''', no quotes, no nothing for placeholder names (but to the uninitiated, this can be misleading).<br />
:For the next twenty-three years Second and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 2''', consistent quotes for placeholder-names.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years “Second” and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
'''Option 3''', tag the character’s placeholder name with the new template.<br />
:For the next twenty-three years <span title="This is not the character's true name." style="cursor:help; color:#999999; font-weight:bold">Second</span> and the surviving members of his clan eked out a life hidden in Scotland.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now, I think it is best to also remember that there is a distinction to consider between <nowiki>'</nowiki>names<nowiki>'</nowiki> like Mentor and Angel that do have SOME canonical association (Coldstone to Hudson and Goliath to Demona), whereas names like Schnozz, Brooksbro, and Kermit are really only for scripting purposes. That’s why I would be ok with not quoting or tagging Mentor and Angel with the potential-new template (I’ve noticed we don’t quote Gargoyle of the Sword for Brooklyn).<br />
<br />
I know that's a lot, and some options would require more overhaul across the wiki than others, but I’d love to hear what others think. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm okay with whatever the team decides. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 15:11, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm glad you brought this up. It was already feeling inconsistent and messy and was only going to get worse. My vote would be option 2. If the name is purely a placeholder for an unnamed character we use quotations. Always. Maybe even in the title for the respective page. And the quotes should be explained in the header. Mentor and Angel can use those names until the switch to Hudson and Demona, and it should be "Othello" until he receives the name Coldstone. Just my thoughts. I'm not stuck on it. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 18:15, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::That would be my preference as well. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 21:32, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, so consistent quotes for '''all''' placeholder-names. On the subject of in-universe non-names likes Mentor and Angel and Gargoyle of the Sword, I agree we use them in their proper context (before they are Hudson and Demona, and in Brooklyn's case I see that handle usually on the pages of characters in 997 that wouldn't know his name), but I want us all to be on the same page. Do we use quotes for those names too? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 21:40, 23 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I say no quotes on Angel, Mentor, etc. since they are used in-universe. Thoughts on changing the name of pages from Sacrifice to "Sacrifice"? -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 06:13, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Okie doke, no quotes for in-universe non-names. And for characters that will, in all likelihood, never have a canonical name, yes, let's change those page names. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Works for me. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 12:35, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I've done the moves for every 10th century Wyvern gargoyle without a true name save for Hyppolyta and Antiope. We have at least one unknown character (for now) naming gargoyles after historical and legendary figures in the prose story, and I'm preferring being patient in Hyppolyta's case. If anyone feels this caution is unneeded, we can move that page too with one with quotes. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I'm sure there are pages that haven't been adjusted yet that we'll spot in the meantime, but I just wanted to quickly note some quirks this new standard will bring us. For one, I really don't love seeing a apostrophe used next to a character's name that's been quoted, so I rewrote a couple sentences ("Kermit"'s page had a hard one). Also, I saw on the timeline that when Puck was impersonating "Goliath" in "Possession", we used quotes that date's entry. So that kind of nuance can get tricky. I don't know. I still prefer that we have a system that makes sense to all of us, and if those nitpicks I mention don't bother anyone else, then I'm fine with what we have. If they are some cause for concern or query, then I leave this comment for food for thought if we did want to readress and/or adjust course a bit before the next ''Dark Ages'' comic comes out.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::I agree, we definitely need a uniform system. I'm not sure what my preference is, but whatever the group decides, I'm down with it. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:10, 24 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Great job, Phoen! All looking really good. As for the "Goliath" issue, maybe we could just do something like [[Puck|Puck (As Goliath)]] or something so that it isn't the same system as the quotations. Or we just leave it as this is a special case. Like Greg, I'm open to whatever. -- [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 07:25, 25 July 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Overhauling and expanding the GargWiki ==<br />
<br />
With new canon, and this renaissance of GARGOYLES taking place, it's time for us to really modernize this thing. I am no computer programmer or wiki programmer, but I know someone who is interested in overhauling the visuals of the GargWiki. But what we also need to do is update our episode summaries. A lot of great people have done a lot of hard work here, but we're lacking in the episode and comic book synopsis department. Take a look at the [https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Young_Justice_Wiki Young Justice Wiki], look at their episode and comic book synopsis's... it's a real reference site. So are we, but the bar has been raised and I think we need to meet it. Something the fandom can use, something the people bringing us new official stories can use. A brief summary of main plot and subplot is not a clear and clean exposition of the plot. Right now story points are often glossed over or left unmentioned or taken out of context. So let's make this something we can truly build, we don't need to get it done over night... but something we can slowly chip away at. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 18:38, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:Hello. Here at GregX’s request. It’s going to take me some time to get back up to speed on wiki editing, but I’m willing to help. Do we want to make a list of high priority episodes/issues that we should start with? Stuff that might be particularly relevant for what’s happening in the comics right not? Or maybe just a list of everything that needs to be done that can be consulted and checked off as we go? [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]] ([[User talk:Demonskrye|talk]]) 08:53, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Great to see you back! Well, I just took care of the synopsis for [[The Edge]]. I don't think we need to overthink things at this point. Let's start small, make sure we have the format down and then go from there. We can make a check list, volunteer for specific episodes. And of course keep each other in the loop if life happens and we can't tackle it and someone else might like to. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:[[Thrill of the Hunt|"Thrill of the Hunt"]], [[Temptation|"Temptation"]], and [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] all look like viable examples to model for other episode pages. At the least, providing a more detailed three-act breakdown will help compensate for the fact that ''Gargoyles'' doesn't usually have timestamps that the YJ Wiki can depend on as reference. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:I'm looking at you, Stone of Destiny arc, lol. You have timestamps up to the brim! d: --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 19:48, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Demonskrye did a fantastic job with those. I intend to get started soon. Maybe I'll start with "The Edge". --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::If no one minds, I can take a crack with "Upgrade" -- I can at least coordinate with the upcoming ''Voices From the Eyrie'' (not to worry, I wouldn't make this a monthly endeavor) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::::Please do. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 04:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
:All right, I just added the "skeleton" (three acts and such) to each canonical episode entry. My way of making our statement of intent, and I plan to get started very soon. And, on top of that, Demonskrye's synopsis for "Temptation" is the perfect model. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 05:21, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
::Oooh, I just thought of something; perhaps, when an episode has one at the end, we can include an additional section after Act Three dubbed the 'Xanatos Tag'. We've long had it on the to-do list here on the Community Portal, and pointing out how that played out in the various episodes (especially when another character subverts the expectation) might be the natural fit that hasn't been found elsewhere on the GargWiki -- [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 06:43, 10 August 2023 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's the master list. Feel free to update with ones you plan to do and ones that were done. Also, when you claim an episode page to work on, please date it and sign it with '''<nowiki>{{CIT|Claimed by ~~~~}}</nowiki>''' <br />
<br />
{| style="width:100%"<br />
|<br />
'''Season 1 episodes''' – ('''13/13 Complete''') <br />
# [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening: Part One"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Two|"Awakening: Part Two"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Three|"Awakening: Part Three"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Four|"Awakening: Part Four"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Awakening Part Five|"Awakening: Part Five"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[The Thrill of the Hunt|"The Thrill of the Hunt"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Temptation|"Temptation"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Enter Macbeth|"Enter Macbeth"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Edge|"The Edge"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Long Way To Morning|"Long Way To Morning"]] - Completed by GregX<br />
# [[Her Brother's Keeper|"Her Brother's Keeper"]] - Completed by Demonskrye<br />
# [[Reawakening|"Reawakening"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
<br />
'''Season 2 episodes''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">29/52 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|09/52 Claimed}} | '''14/52 Complete''')<br />
# [[Leader of the Pack|"Leader of the Pack"]]<br />
# [[Metamorphosis|"Metamorphosis"]]<br />
# [[Legion|"Legion"]]<br />
# [[A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time|"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Mirror|"The Mirror"]]<br />
# [[The Silver Falcon|"The Silver Falcon"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Beholder|"Eye of the Beholder"]]<br />
# [[Vows|"Vows"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Two|"City of Stone" Part Two]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[City of Stone Part Four|"City of Stone" Part Four]] - GregX completed it<br />
# [[High Noon|"High Noon"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Outfoxed|"Outfoxed"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Revelations|"Revelations"]]<br />
# [[Double Jeopardy|"Double Jeopardy"]]<br />
# [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Protection|"Protection"]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]<br />
# [[The Price|"The Price"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Two|"Avalon" Part Two]] - Completed by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]]<br />
# [[Avalon Part Three|"Avalon" Part Three]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 02:35, 7 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Shadows of the Past|"Shadows of the Past"]]<br />
# [[Heritage|"Heritage"]]<br />
# [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]]<br />
# [[Monsters|"Monsters"]]<br />
# [[Golem (episode)|"Golem"]]<br />
# [[Sanctuary|"Sanctuary"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[M.I.A.|"M.I.A."]] - {{CIT|Chip plans to do it.}}<br />
# [[Grief|"Grief"]]<br />
# [[The Hound of Ulster|"The Hound of Ulster"]]<br />
# [[Walkabout|"Walkabout"]]<br />
# [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]]<br />
# [[Pendragon|"Pendragon"]]<br />
# [[Eye of the Storm|"Eye of the Storm"]]<br />
# [[The New Olympians|"The New Olympians"]]<br />
# [[The Green|"The Green"]] - Completed by [[User:Matt|Matt]]<br />
# [[Sentinel (episode)|"Sentinel"]]<br />
# [[Bushido (episode)|"Bushido"]]<br />
# [[Cloud Fathers (episode)|"Cloud Fathers"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 23:34, 2 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Ill Met By Moonlight|"Ill Met By Moonlight"]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 01:38, 28 September 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Future Tense|"Future Tense"]]<br />
# [[The Gathering Part One|"The Gathering" Part One]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[The Gathering Part Two|"The Gathering" Part Two]] - {{CIT|Dibs by [[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 00:42, 17 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Vendettas|"Vendettas"]]<br />
# [[Turf|"Turf"]]<br />
# [[The Reckoning|"The Reckoning"]]<br />
# [[Possession|"Possession"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part One|"Hunter's Moon" Part One]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Two|"Hunter's Moon" Part Two]]<br />
# [[Hunter's Moon Part Three|"Hunter's Moon" Part Three]]<br />
|<br />
'''Gargoyles: Clan-Building''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">12/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[Nightwatch (episode)|"Nightwatch"]]<br />
# [[The Journey|"The Journey"]]<br />
# [[Invitation Only|"Invitation Only"]]<br />
# [[Masque|"Masque"]]<br />
# [[Bash|"Bash"]]<br />
# [[Reunion|"Reunion"]] {{Claimed by merlyn|4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[The Rock|"The Rock"]] {{Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock and Roll|"Rock & Roll"]] {{Claimed by merlyn| 4:59 p.m., November 18, 2023}}<br />
# [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]]<br />
# [[The Gate|"The Gate"]]<br />
# [[Tyrants|"Tyrants"]]<br />
# [[Phoenix|"Phoenix"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Bad Guys''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">04/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[Strangers|"Strangers"]]<br />
# [[The Lost|"The Lost"]]<br />
# [[Estranged|"Estranged"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Louse|"Louse"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Strangled|"Strangled"]]<br />
# [[Losers|"Losers"]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">10/12 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|02/12 Claimed}} | '''00/12 Completed''')<br />
# [[A Little Crazy|"A Little Crazy"]]<br />
# [[Idyll or Nightmare|"Idyll or Nightmare"]]<br />
# [[Miracle Child|"Miracle Child"]]<br />
# [[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]]<br />
# [[Render Unto Caesar|"Render Unto Caesar"]]<br />
# [[Underwater|"Underwater"]] - {{CIT|Claimed by [[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 11:44, 11 August 2023 (PDT)}}<br />
# [[Everywhere|"Everywhere"]] - {{CIT|GregX gonna do it!}}<br />
# [[Mayday|"Mayday"]]<br />
# [[Your Witness|"Your Witness"]]<br />
# [[New Rules|"New Rules"]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Eleven]]<br />
# [[Here In Manhattan Chapter Twelve]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Dark Ages''' – ('''<span style="color:#d12525">06/06 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/06 Claimed}} | '''00/06 Completed''')<br />
# [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
# [[The Draw|"The Draw"]]<br />
# [[The Oath|"The Oath"]]<br />
# [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Five]]<br />
# [[Alliance Chapter Six]]<br />
<br />
'''Gargoyles: Specials''' - ('''<span style="color:#d12525">01/01 Unclaimed</span>''' | {{CIT|00/01 Claimed}} | '''00/01 Completed''')<br />
# [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Episode Order==<br />
Recently, I added [[New Rules|"New Rules"]] to character appearances, and I placed it prior to [[Trick-Or-Treat|"Trick-Or-Treat"]]. Now, I know we've been placing things in release order, and that's a rule that I am in favor of continuing. But we've been making exceptions for this all along, too. For example: [[The Price|"The Price"]] aired earlier in sequence and [[Kingdom|"Kingdom"]] aired late. Greg Weisman provided his preferred order... that order appeared on the DVD's. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the eventual trade paperback collections that the Halloween Special will be placed after the "Here In Manhattan" arc. Although, Disney+ has those two previous episodes in the airing order. And while I am still all in favor of issue releases for spin-offs like Bad Guys and Dark Ages being placed in release order (because that's the intended release order)... I do think we need a rule, with exceptions taking into account. But this isn't a hill I want to die on, so I'll abide by the consensus. --[[User:Greg Bishansky|GregX]] ([[User talk:Greg Bishansky|talk]]) 07:21, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:The impetus for us shifting "The Price" and "The Kingdom" around was because of Greg Weisman's input. Should he mention something in a tweet or on a future ''Voices on the Eyrie'', I'm ok with the move. Otherwise, I think we can wait until the trades come out to see what the intended order is. I'm supportive with moving the Halloween Special up in the episode order and had been thinking similar thoughts since "Trick-Or-Treat" came out, but I didn't see a rush then and I don't see it now until we have something at least at the CIT level. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 07:48, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
::I agree with Phoen. But, like Greg B, I'm not going to make a fuss about it either way. --[[User:Matt|Matt]] ([[User talk:Matt|talk]]) 08:59, 24 October 2023 (PDT)<br />
:::So, for practicality's sake for these next few issues, do we proceed with release order when it comes to new appearances being added to character pages after "Trick-Or-Treat" (at least, until we hear something definitive from Greg Weisman about the intended order)? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] ([[User talk:Phoenician|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2023 (PDT)</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Disney_Afternoon&diff=39445Disney Afternoon2023-11-14T13:54:35Z<p>Merlyn: /* Legacy */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''The Disney Afternoon''' was a two-hour block of various animated television series developed by Disney Television Animation. It was syndicated from September 10th, 1990 to August 29th, 1997. Alongside ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', it featured a variety of shows that featured characters from both classic Disney cartoons and Disney Feature Animation films.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
The initial season of the Disney Afternoon comprised of ''TaleSpin'', a new series that was supported by a library of three other established shows that had previously aired on other networks. From 1989, [[Greg Weisman]] was one executive involved in the development of many of the shows that aired in this block. He eventually became Director of Series Development for Disney Television Animation in 1993, before choosing to focus solely on ''Gargoyles'' in 1994. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7908]<br />
<br />
The Disney Afternoon would open with its own theme and episode credits from the four syndicated shows would be bundled together and displayed only at the end of the two-hour block. According to Weisman, [[Michael Reaves]] objected to this practice and Disney Televion Animation President [[Gary Krisel]] agreed to make an exception for ''Gargoyles'' in its first season, since it aired a half hour before the block ended. Unfortunately, this practice did not continue into the second season. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=56]<br />
<br />
<br />
{| align=center style="border:1px solid #ffffff; border-collapse: collapse;"<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:bold"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | Season<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 3:00 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 3:30 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 4:00 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 4:30 PM<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1990-1991<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Adventures of the Gummi Bears]]''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[DuckTales]]''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1991-1992<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''DuckTales''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Darkwing Duck]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1992-1993<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1993-1994<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Bonkers]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1994-1995<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''The Shnookums and Meat Funny Cartoon Show'' (Monday in 1995)<br />
''Bonkers''<br />
:<span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span> (Friday)<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Aladdin]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1995-1996<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Bonkers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Aladdin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | <span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span><br />
''The Lion King's Timon & Pumbaa'' (Friday)<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1996-1997<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Aladdin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | <span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span><br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''The Lion King's Timon & Pumbaa'' (Monday)<br />
:''[[Quack Pack]]''<br />
:''Mighty Ducks'' (Friday)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
Given the time in the afternoon that the Disney Afternnon would air in syndication, it was often subject to preemption with local networks reporting breaking news from the O.J. Simpson trial throughout 1995. Frequently missing episodes proved to be detrimental to the overall ratings for ''Gargoyles''. [https://www.polygon.com/disney-plus/2020/5/14/21249881/gargoyles-animated-series-disney-plus-greg-weisman-interview-oj-simpson-goliath-chronicles][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2717][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11887]<br />
<br />
While the Disney Afternoon would air for several seasons, contracts with individual television networks expired by the end of the 1996-1997 season, and competing networks like FOX, the WB, and UPN took up the surviving network space. A truncated version of the Disney Afternoon would continue to be syndicated for two more seasons, debuting ''101 Dalmatians'' in 1997 and ''Hercules'' in 1998. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=161]<br />
<br />
In the early days of the internet, an email list dedicated to the Disney Afternoon was an effective way for those working on the then-current slate of shows to gauge audience feedback and reaction. It was this email list that provided Weisman the insight into both Brooklyn's popularity with the fans and the frustration shared by those fans regarding the ''[[Previously on Gargoyles]]'' recaps. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12854][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=103]<br />
<br />
==Legacy==<br />
The two-hour block was popular enough to merit the release of a soundtrack of its first season of shows. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=6085]<br />
<br />
When Disney bought ABC, a (non-canonical) third season of ''Gargoyles'' dubbed ''[[The Goliath Chronicles]]'' would help anchor a Saturday animation block on ABC that eventually became known as Disney's One Saturday Morning. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=400][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2694]<br />
<br />
''Gargoyles'' would be the first of any Disney Afternoon series to be released on [[Gargoyles: The Complete First Season|DVD]] in 2004. Other series to see partial or complete releases on DVD include ''Adventures of the Gummi Bears'', ''DuckTales'', ''TaleSpin'', ''Darkwing Duck'', ''Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers'', and ''Goof Troop''.<br />
<br />
The library of Disney Afternoon shows ultimately migrated to the premium cable station Toon Disney in December 1997. ''Gargoyles'' would air on the station (later known as DisneyXD) until February 2014. Most series from the Disney Afternoon would eventually become available for streaming on Disney+ in November 2019, including shows previously never released on DVD like ''Bonkers''. To date, ''Aladdin'' and ''The Shnookums and Meat Funny Cartoon Show'' remain the only Disney Afternoon shows missing on Disney+.<br />
<br />
''[[Gargoyles (Marvel Comics)|Gargoyles]]'', along with ''Aladdin'' and the rest of the Disney Afternoon had their own [[Marvel Comics]] series. Though the series was non-canon, Weisman would have taken over as writer, had the book not been canceled, with [[Reunion|a story]] that would be used [[Gargoyles (SLG)|later]]. Despite being non-canon the comic featured [[Beth Maza]]'s first full appearance (Between a picture cameo in [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] and her onscreen appearance in [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]) in [[Always Darkest Before Dawn|"Always Darkest Before Dawn"]] and [[Petros Xanatos]] debuting in the comic during [[The Pack Attacks|"The Pack Attacks"]] before [[Vows|"Vows"]] aired.<br />
<br />
The Disney Afternoon also had many comic stories distributed in the magazine ''[[Disney Adventures]]''. Though the ''Gargoyles'' stories were non-canon, [[A Study in Stone|"A Study in Stone"]] albeit set long before [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]], mentioned [[Brooklyn]] being Second in Command. [[Stone Cold|"Stone Cold"]] served as inspiration for [[The Price|"The Price"]].[https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=179]<br />
<br />
From 2006-2009, [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]] published a canonical third season of ''Gargoyles'' comics, which was later continued by [[Dynamite Entertainment]] in 2022. In 2010, Boom Studios published ''Darkwing Duck'', ''DuckTales'', and ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers'' comics. Dynamite would also revive the ''Darkwing Duck'' comic book in 2023. <br />
<br />
In recent years, a reboot series for ''DuckTales'' (2017) and film for ''Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers'' (2022) have been developed for the Disney Channel and Disney+, respectively.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|The_Disney_Afternoon}}<br />
*[https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/The_Disney_Afternoon The Disney Afternoon] on The Disney Wiki<br />
<br />
[[Category:Out-of-universe]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Disney_Afternoon&diff=39444Disney Afternoon2023-11-14T13:53:02Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''The Disney Afternoon''' was a two-hour block of various animated television series developed by Disney Television Animation. It was syndicated from September 10th, 1990 to August 29th, 1997. Alongside ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', it featured a variety of shows that featured characters from both classic Disney cartoons and Disney Feature Animation films.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
The initial season of the Disney Afternoon comprised of ''TaleSpin'', a new series that was supported by a library of three other established shows that had previously aired on other networks. From 1989, [[Greg Weisman]] was one executive involved in the development of many of the shows that aired in this block. He eventually became Director of Series Development for Disney Television Animation in 1993, before choosing to focus solely on ''Gargoyles'' in 1994. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7908]<br />
<br />
The Disney Afternoon would open with its own theme and episode credits from the four syndicated shows would be bundled together and displayed only at the end of the two-hour block. According to Weisman, [[Michael Reaves]] objected to this practice and Disney Televion Animation President [[Gary Krisel]] agreed to make an exception for ''Gargoyles'' in its first season, since it aired a half hour before the block ended. Unfortunately, this practice did not continue into the second season. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=56]<br />
<br />
<br />
{| align=center style="border:1px solid #ffffff; border-collapse: collapse;"<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:bold"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | Season<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 3:00 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 3:30 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 4:00 PM<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 4:30 PM<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1990-1991<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Adventures of the Gummi Bears]]''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[DuckTales]]''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1991-1992<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''DuckTales''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Darkwing Duck]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1992-1993<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1993-1994<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''TaleSpin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Bonkers]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1994-1995<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''The Shnookums and Meat Funny Cartoon Show'' (Monday in 1995)<br />
''Bonkers''<br />
:<span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span> (Friday)<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''[[Aladdin]]''<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1995-1996<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Goof Troop''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Bonkers''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Aladdin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | <span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span><br />
''The Lion King's Timon & Pumbaa'' (Friday)<br />
|- style="text-align:center; font-weight:normal"<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | 1996-1997<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Darkwing Duck''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''Aladdin''<br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | <span style="color:#DD33FF">'''''Gargoyles'''''</span><br />
| style="border-bottom:1px solid #ffffff; border-right:1px solid #ffffff" | ''The Lion King's Timon & Pumbaa'' (Monday)<br />
:''[[Quack Pack]]''<br />
:''Mighty Ducks'' (Friday)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
Given the time in the afternoon that the Disney Afternnon would air in syndication, it was often subject to preemption with local networks reporting breaking news from the O.J. Simpson trial throughout 1995. Frequently missing episodes proved to be detrimental to the overall ratings for ''Gargoyles''. [https://www.polygon.com/disney-plus/2020/5/14/21249881/gargoyles-animated-series-disney-plus-greg-weisman-interview-oj-simpson-goliath-chronicles][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2717][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11887]<br />
<br />
While the Disney Afternoon would air for several seasons, contracts with individual television networks expired by the end of the 1996-1997 season, and competing networks like FOX, the WB, and UPN took up the surviving network space. A truncated version of the Disney Afternoon would continue to be syndicated for two more seasons, debuting ''101 Dalmatians'' in 1997 and ''Hercules'' in 1998. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=161]<br />
<br />
In the early days of the internet, an email list dedicated to the Disney Afternoon was an effective way for those working on the then-current slate of shows to gauge audience feedback and reaction. It was this email list that provided Weisman the insight into both Brooklyn's popularity with the fans and the frustration shared by those fans regarding the ''[[Previously on Gargoyles]]'' recaps. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12854][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=103]<br />
<br />
==Legacy==<br />
The two-hour block was popular enough to merit the release of a soundtrack of its first season of shows. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=6085]<br />
<br />
When Disney bought ABC, a (non-canonical) third season of ''Gargoyles'' dubbed ''[[The Goliath Chronicles]]'' would help anchor a Saturday animation block on ABC that eventually became known as Disney's One Saturday Morning. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=400][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2694]<br />
<br />
''Gargoyles'' would be the first of any Disney Afternoon series to be released on [[Gargoyles: The Complete First Season|DVD]] in 2004. Other series to see partial or complete releases on DVD include ''Adventures of the Gummi Bears'', ''DuckTales'', ''TaleSpin'', ''Darkwing Duck'', ''Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers'', and ''Goof Troop''.<br />
<br />
The library of Disney Afternoon shows ultimately migrated to the premium cable station Toon Disney in December 1997. ''Gargoyles'' would air on the station (later known as DisneyXD) until February 2014. Most series from the Disney Afternoon would eventually become available for streaming on Disney+ in November 2019, including shows previously never released on DVD like ''Bonkers''. To date, ''Aladdin'' and ''The Shnookums and Meat Funny Cartoon Show'' remain the only Disney Afternoon shows missing on Disney+.<br />
<br />
''[[Gargoyles (Marvel Comics)|Gargoyles]]'', along with ''Aladdin'' and the rest of the Disney Afternoon had their own [[Marvel Comics]] series. Though the series was non-canon, Weisman would have taken over as writer had the book not been canceled with [[Reunion|a story]] that would be used [[Gargoyles (SLG)|later]]. Despite being non-canon the comic featured [[Beth Maza]]'s first full appearance (Between a picture cameo in [[Deadly Force|"Deadly Force"]] and her onscreen appearance in [[The Cage|"The Cage"]]) in [[Always Darkest Before Dawn|"Always Darkest Before Dawn"]] and [[Petros Xanatos]] debuting in the comic during [[The Pack Attacks|"The Pack Attacks"]] before [[Vows|"Vows"]] aired.<br />
<br />
The Disney Afternoon also had many comic stories distributed in the magazine ''[[Disney Adventures]]''. Though the ''Gargoyles'' stories were non-canon, [[A Study in Stone|"A Study in Stone"]] albeit set long before [[Upgrade|"Upgrade"]] mentioned [[Brooklyn]] being Second in Command. [[Stone Cold|"Stone Cold"]] served as inspiration for [[The Price|"The Price"]].[https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=179]<br />
<br />
From 2006-2009, [[Slave Labor Graphics|SLG]] published a canonical third season of ''Gargoyles'' comics, which was later continued by [[Dynamite Entertainment]] in 2022. In 2010, Boom Studios published ''Darkwing Duck'', ''DuckTales'', and ''Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers'' comics. Dynamite would also revive the ''Darkwing Duck'' comic book in 2023. <br />
<br />
In recent years, a reboot series for ''DuckTales'' (2017) and film for ''Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers'' (2022) have been developed for the Disney Channel and Disney+, respectively.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|The_Disney_Afternoon}}<br />
*[https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/The_Disney_Afternoon The Disney Afternoon] on The Disney Wiki<br />
<br />
[[Category:Out-of-universe]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Two&diff=39443Avalon Part Two2023-11-14T13:21:42Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act Three */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon2.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Two''' is the thirty-fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-second episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 21, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Anima Sam Won Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]], [[Long Way to Morning|"Long Way to Morning"]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
On the shores of [[Avalon]], [[Goliath]], [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], [[Bronx]], and [[Guardian]] look upon two fully grown [[gargoyle]]s and a [[gargoyle beast]] standing on a nearby cliff. They glide down and the female gargoyle greets Guardian with a warm embrace. Elisa can't help but ask, "''These'' are [["The Eggs"|'The Eggs']]?" and Guardian clarifies that he's always called them that. The [[Boudicca|female gargoyle beast]] also rushes to Guardian before Bronx begins to interact with both. The female gargoyle approaches Goliath, telling him she's heard so much about him that it's like a dream come true. Guardian introduces her to both Goliath and Elisa as [[Angela]]. Goliath is surprised that the gargoyles were given names, and Angela comments on the practicality of the matter, "How else could we tell each other apart?" The male gargoyle, [[Gabriel]], beckons everyone to head to the [[Oberon's Palace|castle]] and Angela notes that the area is dangerous.<br />
<br />
As they walk away, the sands begin to shift beneath Goliath's feet. The sand rises, taking the shape of a bearded man, towering over Goliath. Goliath recognizes the voice and face as that of the [[Archmage]], and a second sand construct proceeds to clobber Goliath with an arm formed as a mace and bury him in sand. Sand vines begin to ensnare both Angela and Gabriel, as well as Bronx and the other gargoyle beast. One of the Archmage sand constructs pauses from burying Goliath to confront Elisa and Guardian. The two humans draw their weapons, and Elisa shoots two bullets into the head of the Sand-Archmage, but to no avail. Elisa then dodges an arm made of sand emerging from the abdomen of the Sand-Archmage, which Guardian slices away with his sword. Now on the ground, sand proceeds to bind Elisa to the beach like the gargoyle beasts. More Archmage sand constructs surround Guardian, but he continues to attack, slicing one Sand-Archmage from its head down to its torso, only for the sand to take hold of his sword. As it slams Guardian into another sand construct, the Archmage mocks the human, telling Guardian he gave them all until dawn to prepare for death when he used that time to look for help. Sand heads of the Archmage form above Angela and Gabriel, who begin to suffocate from the sand around them. From the sand heads, the Archmage insists there is no one that can stop him, and is insulted that Guardian and the others thought otherwise. Growing frustrated from the sand and insults hurled at him, Goliath breaks free from the mound burying him. He quickly frees Elisa just as another sand construct of the Archmage attacks Goliath, its arms shifting shape into pointed spears. Goliath jumps at that Sand-Archmage, slashing its head down to the neck. The two other Sand-Archmages begin to tower over Elisa to strike at Goliath, but Goliath pounces on both, decapitating both and continuing to pound one of the constructs to the ground. From below, Elisa pulls Guardian out of one of the sand Archmages while Bronx and the other gargoyle beast free Angela and Gabriel. Goliath makes quick work of the third sand-Archmage when the sands shift beneath their feet once more to form one last Archmage construct, who succinctly mocks the group's efforts: "After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." At this point, the Sand-Archmage has grown gargoyle-like wings and then turns to literal stone before it explodes, raining rubble on Goliath and the others.<br />
<br />
"Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us," Guardian comments. As they walk, Elisa joins Goliath and asks about Angela, noting that she looks like [[Demona]] but with a different complexion. "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan, Elisa. It is the Gargoyle Way," is all that Goliath provides. <br />
<br />
They make their way to Oberon's Palace, which is positively teeming with gargoyles, but with many injured. As they enter a hall serving a makeshift hospital, Goliath asks how many are wounded, and Angela and Gabriel explain the clan was unprepared and had no need to practice their combat skills before this night. The [[Magus]] and [[Princess Katharine]], both much older, are treating the wounded as best they can. Katharine stops what she's doing to greet Tom, relieved at his safe return. Elisa can't help but notice the two's warm embrace and the impact it has on the older Magus. Goliath is in awe<!--maybe this isn't the right word, but how else to convey his surprise that she and the Eggs's are still alive?--> to greet Princess Katharine once more, and her spirits grow more cheerful and hopeful. Goliath expresses to her that he is glad to be here – that Katharine's protection of the clan's children was something he never dreamed that he would ever witness. Katharine laments that if only the times were equally glad. She tends to a [[Ophelia|wounded gargoyle]], and Goliath registers that the injury was caused by laser burns, and asks how the battle transpired. While the Magus busies himself making natural remedies and poultices for the wounded, he explains to Goliath that since they arrived on Avalon, the island has been completely deserted – except for the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]] – and peaceful, until this recent attack. The [[Weird Sisters]] led the attack, followed by two with "magical" weapons. Guardian describes the first as a bearded man and the other a gargoyle they recognized as Goliath's Second-in-Command. Goliath and Elisa recognize Demona and [[Macbeth]] in the descriptions and they figure the two, who normally hate each other, must still be under the control of the Weird Sisters. The Magus then explains that it is his old master, the Archmage, that commands their attackers. But this Archmage is a more powerful sorcerer; he wears the [[Eye of Odin]] on his brow and carries the Phoenix Gate. If the Magus wasn't confident that the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'' couldn't be brought to the island, he would swear the Archmage had that as well. Elisa then figures that Demona and Macbeth must have stolen those talismans from Goliath while under the Weird Sisters' thrall, who Goliath figures gave them to the Archmage. Guardian admits that the Archmage seems formidable enough to seem to be at two places at once. <br />
<br />
On the island, Demona and Macbeth stand by with their modern weapons as the Weird Sisters relax, sitting and looking at the reflection of the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]. Two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The Archmage arrives in [[Scotland]], [[Timeline#Before 994|984 AD]], witnessing his younger self battle a younger Hudson, Goliath, and Demona in [[Archmage's Cave|his cave]]. As his younger self attacks the three gargoyles with his [[Lightning Spell]], the older Archmage thinks to himself how his younger self starts off well enough, but he lacks control (especially in regard to his temper). Having lost the ''Grimorum'' at this point in the battle, the Archmage from 984 grabs a broken stalactite from the ground and runs at them with it, with intent to impale Goliath or his then-Angel. The gargoyles move aside, and the Archmage loses his footing, falling into the chasm and out of sight. ''There is so much to teach him'', the enhanced Archmage from the present day muses, and activates the Phoenix Gate, taking him to the chasm below with enough time to save his younger self. The younger Archmage is shaken from the near-death experience, the sight of the sorcerer who saved him, or both, but the Enhanced Archmage has no patience for him. The younger Archmage asks who just saved him, but the Enchanced Archmage merely activates the Phoenix's flames once more, only demanding "Patience" to his younger self.<br />
<br />
The two arrive in the middle of unknown waters of [[Timeline#995-1994|995 AD]], and the Archmage from 984 panics that he can't swim. The Enhanced Archmage merely commands the word "Vessel" with a hand out-stretched, and a [[Skiff]] rises from the depths for them to land on. It dawns on the younger Archmage that the sorcerer that saved him is, in fact, ''him'', but the Enchanced Archmage corrects his younger self by explaining that he is who the younger self will become.<!--No joke, that was fun to write, lol--> The younger Archmage demands the Enchanced Archmage help to reclaim the ''Grimorum'' from Goliath, but the Enchanced Archmage insists that it will be reclaimed in good time; the spell book must fulfill its role in the timestream. The younger Archmage is clearly impatient, wondering why he was even brought to these waters. The Enhanced Archmage suggests he could take his younger self back to where he found him, and his younger self takes the hint. The Enchanced Archmage encourages his younger self to think: what does he want? The younger Archmage quickly responds, "Ultimate power – and revenge!" The Enhanced Archmage lists off what they will need practically to achieve these goals: allies, soldiers, weapons, and a base of operations. "Be silent, and watch," he instructs his younger self. The two Archmages watch the Magus, [[Mary]], Tom, Princess Katharine, [[Finella]], and the gargoyle Eggs float in front of them on three separate skiffs. The younger Archmage reasons that they are here to take the ''Grimorum'' from the Magus at this point in time, but the Enhanced Archmage scolds him: "If you DON'T know, DON'T guess." He explains they are here to make powerful allies. The two watch as the Weird Sisters begin to grow into giants on their [[Barge]], preparing to attack the mortals. Princess Katharine begs for the Magus to do something and he is quick to react; as the Weird Sisters' energies converge on the Magus, he successfully manages to not only block their magic, but bounce it back onto the Weird Sisters, turning them into barn owls. Even as owls they attack, but the Magus swats them away with his oar. They fly off, screeching. <br />
<br />
Princess Katharine and Finella's skiff floats up to the Magus's, and Katharine celebrates his victory, but the Magus is dejected, declaring that he can't go with them to Avalon. He can't bring the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''; but the book is essentially a map to Avalon, and he won't risk Constantine or his sorcerers getting their hands on it. The younger Archmage is stunned that the Magus is giving up the "source of his power" and wonders if they are going to take the book from Mary and Finella. The Enhanced Archmage reprimands his younger self once more; history cannot be changed. The younger Archmage grows infuriated – if his older self is so powerful, why can't he get what what the younger self needs? But as they fly to the Weird Sister's barge, the Enhanced Archmage explains that if the younger Archmage doesn't get them for himself, then the Enhanced Archmage won't have them in the future. The Enhanced Archmage restores the Weird Sisters with a hand wave and the word "Revert". The three are not amused: they explain that [[Oberon]] charged them with protecting the gates to Avalon, but they have now been banished from the island by a "magician's parlor tricks". The Enhanced Archmage offers an alliance, but [[Selene]] explains matter-of-factly that they make no pacts with sorcerers. But when the Enhanced Archmage promises them a chance for revenge, [[Phoebe]] informs them that they will listen to his proposition. The Archmage explains it will take some time, but [[Luna]] is unconcerned: "What is time to an immortal?" The Archmage declares they will meet again in twenty-five years and that they will all have their vengeance.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
The two Archmages arrive in Scotland, 1020 AD. In Dunsinane, several men stand guard outside a granary when the roar of gargoyles echoes towards them. A band of gargoyles descends from the sky and traps the men in a net. The gargoyle leader breaks into the granary with a mace, and her gargoyles start gathering food. The younger Archmage recognizes the gargoyle leader as his former apprentice who betrayed him – she certainly cannot be an ally. The Enhanced Archmage clarifies that Demona will not be an ally but cannon-fodder . . . and the first of the soldiers they will need. "Trust me, we're not doing her any favors," he assures his younger self. The Weird Sisters arrive to witness the selection.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, [[Findlaech]] and a young Macbeth enthusiastically spar on the balcony of [[Castle Moray]]. As they watch the nobles, the younger Archmage is dismissive of the boy as a candidate, but the Enhanced Archmage explains that Macbeth will be a great warrior if he should survive to adulthood. The Weird Sisters appear once more and the Enhanced Archmage instructs the three to protect Demona and Macbeth, to guide their courses. Luna interjects, reminding them of [[Oberon's Law]], which forbids the Weird Sisters from directly interfering with human events. The Enhanced Archmage counters, saying "The law that cannot be broken can surely be bent." Phoebe agrees. As they begin to depart, the Enhanced Archmage tells the Weird Sisters to look out for the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'', the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate. Selene is perplexed: The Enhanced Archmage already has the Eye and the Gate. At this, the Enhanced Archmage laughs: he won't have the talismans until the three bring them to him in the future. He'll meet the Weird Sisters again at the watery gates of Avalon in nine hundred seventy-five years.<br />
<br />
The younger Archmage can barely wrap his head around the expanse of time: "Nine hundred and seventy-five years?!" The Enhnaced Archmage glares at him.<br />
<br />
The two Archmages arrive on the Weird Sisters' barge in [[Timeline#1995|1995]], a day before Guardian set out to find Goliath. The Enhanced Archmage asks his younger self what he will do with the ultimate power he's always dreamed of once the Weird Sisters deliver the [[Three Keys to Power]]. The younger Archmage admits he hasn't thought that far ahead: "Perhaps I'll conquer Scotland . . .?" The Enhanced Archmage tells him that with so much power, a single nation is too simple; they could conquer the [[Earth|world]]. He warns his younger self that the modern world has become a place of science, not sorcery, and that any weapon today is as powerful as any spell cast. For that reason, the younger self will need a base of operations that humans cannot reach. The younger Archmage puts two and two together finally: Avalon will serve as the safe place to launch his assault on the world, once it is rid of the few humans and gargoyles that currently inhabit the island.<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters arrive with the talismans and an entranced Demona and Macbeth. The Enhanced Archmage commands Selene to give his younger self the Eye of Odin. He magically fashions a skull cap for his younger self to wear on his brow. The Eye enhances the younger Archmage, giving him a similar appearance to his older self. The older Archmage explains that his younger self has power but lacks the knowledge to which to wield it, commanding Phoebe to give him the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''. The Weird Sisters are resistant: the Gate and the Eye may have been forged on Avalon, but the ''Grimorum'' contains mortal magic. "By Oberon's Law, no magics may enter here save Avalon's own," Luna asserts. The younger self grows indignant; they went through all this trouble to get the ''Grimorum'' and he can't bring it to Avalon? The younger Archmage sarcastically asks, "What am I supposed to do, eat it?!" and the older Archmage merely replies that his younger self ''is'' learning. Hearing his older self's hint, the younger Enhanced Archmage proceeds to magically consume the ''Grimorum'', much to the Weird Sisters' shock. Sated, the younger Archmage now understands; they bend the law without breaking it. The book is a part of him now and can go where he goes. With that, the older Archmage commands Luna to give the Phoenix Gate to his younger self. Luna asks what are they to do with the Sleeping King, and the younger Archmage is surprised that the legends are true. Selene declares: "All things are true," explaining that Sleeping King rests in his [[Hollow Hill]]. The older Archmage prioritizes taking the island first. After that, they can be sure the Sleeping King never wakes. <br />
<br />
The older Archmage orders the Weird Sisters and their charges to proceed, and revels to his younger self at the fact that everything is going according to his plan: "As it did, as it must, and as it always will!" He laughs maniacally as they depart in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
Six hours before Guardian arrived with Goliath, Elisa, and Bronx, he sits at an outdoor table waiting to be joined by Princess Katharine and the Magus. As the sun sets on the mystical island, the rest of the Avalon Clan begins to wake up from their [[Stone Sleep]]. As the gargoyles join the humans down below, the Palace walls explode, debris and rubble raining down on those nearby. The Weird Sisters (who were responsible for the explosion) vanish as soon as they appear, as an entranced Demona takes to attacking the gargoyles from above while Macbeth covers the assault on the ground. Angela demands to know who they are and what they want, but they are unresponsive. Demona and Macbeth fire their weapons on the untrained gargoyles, and Demona even swipes her claws at another gargoyle's wing, cutting them with her slashing. The two are magically pulled back by the Weird Sisters, vanishing from sight. The Enhanced Archmage appears in the Phoenix's flames, blasting energy at the gargoyles trying to flee. One gargoyle attempts to throw a spear at the Enhanced Archmage, only for him to disappear and reappear behind the gargoyle, attacking with another energy blast. Guardian pulls out his sword and commands the clan to regroup to him, when the Enhanced Archmage's face suddenly appears from the sky. He tells the Avalon Clan that this skirmish was just a demonstration of his power. The Enhanced Archmage declares that they have until dawn before he returns to destroy them all.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, Selene wonders why they were called off from the attack. The older Archmage explains that if they wait until dawn, the gargoyles will be stone and defenseless, leaving just three humans to finish off. Further, he needs time for them to bring Goliath. Otherwise, his vengeance would not be complete.<br />
<br />
A minute earlier, the two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The remaining Enhanced Archmage says to himself: "Finally. I thought he'd never leave!"<br />
<br />
Back at Oberon's Palace, Guardian explains that after the Archmage's first assault, he went in search of help, mentioning that "thankfully, Avalon dropped me in your laps." Princess Katharine and the Magus remind everyone that they are running out time. If they don't defeat the Enhanced Archmage and his forces before sunrise, "the next battle will be over before it begins." Gabriel informs everyone that they have three hours left until dawn. Goliath is confident about taking on Demona and Macbeth, but he needs the help of the Magus and his magic if they hope to take on the Enhanced Archmage. The Magus tells everyone that, without the ''Grimorum'', he is useless. Princess Katharine vehemently disagrees, telling him not to say it, let alone think it. She goes to comfort him as Goliath strategizes that if they can recover the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate, it will reduce the Archmage's power considerably. Even if that were possible, he knows they can't take on their enemies in a frontal assault. Knowing it will take stealth and be surgical to succeed, he takes only Angela and Gabriel as his guides. As they leave, Goliath asks Elisa to think of a contingency plan in case their efforts fall short. Elisa isn't sure where to start when she suddenly remembers something the Magus mentioned. She asks the three humans to tell her about the Sleeping King.<br />
<br />
From the Grotto's waters, the Enhanced Archmage sees Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel approach. "Now the fun really begins!" he says and begins to laugh maniacally once more.<br />
<br />
''To Be Concluded . . .''<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Avalon Clan]]<br />
* [[Oberon's Law]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "Don't crow too loudly. After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." -- The Archmage<br />
* "Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us" -- Guardian<br />
* "She's not an ally, she's cannon-fodder. The first of the warriors you will need. Trust me, we're not doing her any favors . . ." -- The Archmage<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
Angela, Gabriel, and the other gargoyle members of the Avalon Clan are introduced in this episode. Angela becomes a regular cast member beginning in this episode.<br />
<br />
Elisa Maza comments to Goliath that Angela "looks like Demona, but her coloring's different" and asks about her parentage. This foreshadows the revelation in [[Monsters|"Monsters"]] that Angela is the biological daughter of Goliath and Demona. Goliath's response (that gargoyle children are raised by the entire [[clan]]) foreshadows his reluctance to accept her as his daughter until the episode [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]].<br />
<br />
Angela is not the only member of the Avalon Clan to be the biological offspring of two gargoyles whom we had already met in the series. Gabriel is, in fact, the biological son of [[Othello]] and [[Desdemona]] (as his appearance strongly hints) – though this would not be confirmed until [[Reunion|"Reunion"]]. (On a related note, [[Greg Weisman]] has also mentioned that [[Broadway]] is [[Hudson]]'s biological son, although neither of them are at all interested in this piece of information, thanks to the gargoyle custom of "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan.")<br />
<br />
The Archmage travels back to 984, and witnesses the events depicted in flashback in "Long Way To Morning". We learn that the Archmage was able to survive his plunge into the chasm by rescuing his past self.<br />
<br />
During the Archmage's visit to 1020, Demona's granary robbery from [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] reappears, this time from his perspective, and Findlaech makes a cameo, teaching Macbeth swordplay.<br />
<br />
The "Sleeping King" is referenced for the first time, foreshadowing Arthur Pendragon's introduction in the following episode.<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
In the original draft for "Avalon" Part Two, the Archmages' time loop included two more stops that had to be cut for time: a visit to Scotland in 1040 (where the Enhanced Archmage instructs the Weird Sisters to make Demona and Macbeth immortal) and to [[New York]] in the present day, during the events in [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] (where the Enhanced Archmage would deliver further instructions to the Weird Sisters that would lead to their actions in that episode).<br />
<br />
The latter scene, incidentally, could explain a remark by the Enhanced Archmage to his former self about how the modern world is now powered by science and technology rather than by [[magic]]. From the point of view of the episode as aired, this is astonishing, since his time in the 20th century is spent entirely on Avalon, rather than the outside world, and so he could not have seen this first-hand. He also calls Demona "cannon-fodder." (Admittedly, he does witness Demona and Macbeth making use of their high-tech firearms in their initial assault upon the palace, which could be how he learned of it. An even more entertaining possibility is that the Archmage doesn't actually know this fact, but only says it because it's all part of the time loop!) These lines might have been left over from the longer version of the episode, where he would have had the opportunity to learn of this during his brief stopover in [[Manhattan]] during the 1990s.<br />
<br />
When Goliath is surprised that the Avalon Clan has names, Angela responds "Of course, how else could we tell each other apart?" This mirrors Tom's question in [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening"]], "How do you tell each other apart?" to which Lexington replied "We look different."<br />
<br />
Early in this episode, the Archmage mocks the gargoyles by saying, "What have you achieved?! You beat up a beach!" This is referenced in the animated series ''[[W.I.T.C.H.]]'', in the episode "I is for Illusion", when one of the protagonists asks "How are we supposed to beat up a beach?" while fighting the monster Sandpit. Season 2 of ''W.I.T.C.H.'' was story edited and produced by Greg Weisman, and the episode was written by [[Cary Bates]]. The quote would also be referenced in the second season of ''[[The Spectacular Spider-Man]]''.<br />
<br />
When the Archmage proclaims how everything is going according to his plan to his younger self (more specifically when he says "as it always will"), the background switches to their base on the island, which they had not yet reached, but appears earlier and later in the episode as the only other place both of them had the "Enhanced Archmage" look.<br />
<br />
==Archmage's time loop==<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|thumb|500px|The Archmage's travels through time.]]<br />
Greg Weisman describes this time loop as a "quirk of the timestream", a "working paradox" without independent origin, as opposed to the "[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox Grandfather chestnut]". When trying to illustrate the mechanics of the loop, Weisman compared it to his own "Gettysburgh chestnut":<br />
<br />
:''"I am a historian. My specialty is Abraham Lincoln. I travel back in time and meet him just before he's scheduled to give the Gettysburgh Address. To my horror, I discover that he's got writer's block. The most famous speech a president ever gave, and Abe can't think of what to write. I panic. And "write" the speech for him. Of course I didn't compose it. I simply write down the Gettysburgh Address from memory. Abe loves it. Gives the speech. Reporters transcribe it. Historians put it in history books. I study it and go back in time. Time flows unbroken. It is a "working" paradox. A paradox that doesn't short circuit the time stream. Now it raises a HUGE question? Who composed the Address? Not Abe, he got it from me. Not me, I got if from a history book. Not the historians or the reporters, they got it from Abe. The answer is it was born with the timestream, created by God or the Big Bang or whatever. It is mysterious. But it works."'' [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=2] <br />
<br />
Both the Gettysburgh and the Archmage's loop fall in line with the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop bootstrap paradox theory], which essentially represents a causal loop that was not created by third party tempering of the timestream—it simply exists. This paradigm complies with the time travel rules innate to the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]], which establish that time cannot be changed.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
The scene where Elisa fires her gun three times at the Sand-Archmage's head was removed. The three bullets passing through and the holes closing afterwards is missing. Also, it cuts out the scene where Bronx and Boudicca pounce on two other Sand-Archmage heads (the one's imprisoning Angela and Gabriel) and slash at them.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=181 Background Memo]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=182 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep35.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part One|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part One]]''' <br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Three|Next Episode: "Avalon" Part Three >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Two&diff=39442Avalon Part Two2023-11-14T13:18:39Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act Two */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon2.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Two''' is the thirty-fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-second episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 21, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Anima Sam Won Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]], [[Long Way to Morning|"Long Way to Morning"]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
On the shores of [[Avalon]], [[Goliath]], [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], [[Bronx]], and [[Guardian]] look upon two fully grown [[gargoyle]]s and a [[gargoyle beast]] standing on a nearby cliff. They glide down and the female gargoyle greets Guardian with a warm embrace. Elisa can't help but ask, "''These'' are [["The Eggs"|'The Eggs']]?" and Guardian clarifies that he's always called them that. The [[Boudicca|female gargoyle beast]] also rushes to Guardian before Bronx begins to interact with both. The female gargoyle approaches Goliath, telling him she's heard so much about him that it's like a dream come true. Guardian introduces her to both Goliath and Elisa as [[Angela]]. Goliath is surprised that the gargoyles were given names, and Angela comments on the practicality of the matter, "How else could we tell each other apart?" The male gargoyle, [[Gabriel]], beckons everyone to head to the [[Oberon's Palace|castle]] and Angela notes that the area is dangerous.<br />
<br />
As they walk away, the sands begin to shift beneath Goliath's feet. The sand rises, taking the shape of a bearded man, towering over Goliath. Goliath recognizes the voice and face as that of the [[Archmage]], and a second sand construct proceeds to clobber Goliath with an arm formed as a mace and bury him in sand. Sand vines begin to ensnare both Angela and Gabriel, as well as Bronx and the other gargoyle beast. One of the Archmage sand constructs pauses from burying Goliath to confront Elisa and Guardian. The two humans draw their weapons, and Elisa shoots two bullets into the head of the Sand-Archmage, but to no avail. Elisa then dodges an arm made of sand emerging from the abdomen of the Sand-Archmage, which Guardian slices away with his sword. Now on the ground, sand proceeds to bind Elisa to the beach like the gargoyle beasts. More Archmage sand constructs surround Guardian, but he continues to attack, slicing one Sand-Archmage from its head down to its torso, only for the sand to take hold of his sword. As it slams Guardian into another sand construct, the Archmage mocks the human, telling Guardian he gave them all until dawn to prepare for death when he used that time to look for help. Sand heads of the Archmage form above Angela and Gabriel, who begin to suffocate from the sand around them. From the sand heads, the Archmage insists there is no one that can stop him, and is insulted that Guardian and the others thought otherwise. Growing frustrated from the sand and insults hurled at him, Goliath breaks free from the mound burying him. He quickly frees Elisa just as another sand construct of the Archmage attacks Goliath, its arms shifting shape into pointed spears. Goliath jumps at that Sand-Archmage, slashing its head down to the neck. The two other Sand-Archmages begin to tower over Elisa to strike at Goliath, but Goliath pounces on both, decapitating both and continuing to pound one of the constructs to the ground. From below, Elisa pulls Guardian out of one of the sand Archmages while Bronx and the other gargoyle beast free Angela and Gabriel. Goliath makes quick work of the third sand-Archmage when the sands shift beneath their feet once more to form one last Archmage construct, who succinctly mocks the group's efforts: "After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." At this point, the Sand-Archmage has grown gargoyle-like wings and then turns to literal stone before it explodes, raining rubble on Goliath and the others.<br />
<br />
"Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us," Guardian comments. As they walk, Elisa joins Goliath and asks about Angela, noting that she looks like [[Demona]] but with a different complexion. "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan, Elisa. It is the Gargoyle Way," is all that Goliath provides. <br />
<br />
They make their way to Oberon's Palace, which is positively teeming with gargoyles, but with many injured. As they enter a hall serving a makeshift hospital, Goliath asks how many are wounded, and Angela and Gabriel explain the clan was unprepared and had no need to practice their combat skills before this night. The [[Magus]] and [[Princess Katharine]], both much older, are treating the wounded as best they can. Katharine stops what she's doing to greet Tom, relieved at his safe return. Elisa can't help but notice the two's warm embrace and the impact it has on the older Magus. Goliath is in awe<!--maybe this isn't the right word, but how else to convey his surprise that she and the Eggs's are still alive?--> to greet Princess Katharine once more, and her spirits grow more cheerful and hopeful. Goliath expresses to her that he is glad to be here – that Katharine's protection of the clan's children was something he never dreamed that he would ever witness. Katharine laments that if only the times were equally glad. She tends to a [[Ophelia|wounded gargoyle]], and Goliath registers that the injury was caused by laser burns, and asks how the battle transpired. While the Magus busies himself making natural remedies and poultices for the wounded, he explains to Goliath that since they arrived on Avalon, the island has been completely deserted – except for the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]] – and peaceful, until this recent attack. The [[Weird Sisters]] led the attack, followed by two with "magical" weapons. Guardian describes the first as a bearded man and the other a gargoyle they recognized as Goliath's Second-in-Command. Goliath and Elisa recognize Demona and [[Macbeth]] in the descriptions and they figure the two, who normally hate each other, must still be under the control of the Weird Sisters. The Magus then explains that it is his old master, the Archmage, that commands their attackers. But this Archmage is a more powerful sorcerer; he wears the [[Eye of Odin]] on his brow and carries the Phoenix Gate. If the Magus wasn't confident that the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'' couldn't be brought to the island, he would swear the Archmage had that as well. Elisa then figures that Demona and Macbeth must have stolen those talismans from Goliath while under the Weird Sisters' thrall, who Goliath figures gave them to the Archmage. Guardian admits that the Archmage seems formidable enough to seem to be at two places at once. <br />
<br />
On the island, Demona and Macbeth stand by with their modern weapons as the Weird Sisters relax, sitting and looking at the reflection of the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]. Two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The Archmage arrives in [[Scotland]], [[Timeline#Before 994|984 AD]], witnessing his younger self battle a younger Hudson, Goliath, and Demona in [[Archmage's Cave|his cave]]. As his younger self attacks the three gargoyles with his [[Lightning Spell]], the older Archmage thinks to himself how his younger self starts off well enough, but he lacks control (especially in regard to his temper). Having lost the ''Grimorum'' at this point in the battle, the Archmage from 984 grabs a broken stalactite from the ground and runs at them with it, with intent to impale Goliath or his then-Angel. The gargoyles move aside, and the Archmage loses his footing, falling into the chasm and out of sight. ''There is so much to teach him'', the enhanced Archmage from the present day muses, and activates the Phoenix Gate, taking him to the chasm below with enough time to save his younger self. The younger Archmage is shaken from the near-death experience, the sight of the sorcerer who saved him, or both, but the Enhanced Archmage has no patience for him. The younger Archmage asks who just saved him, but the Enchanced Archmage merely activates the Phoenix's flames once more, only demanding "Patience" to his younger self.<br />
<br />
The two arrive in the middle of unknown waters of [[Timeline#995-1994|995 AD]], and the Archmage from 984 panics that he can't swim. The Enhanced Archmage merely commands the word "Vessel" with a hand out-stretched, and a [[Skiff]] rises from the depths for them to land on. It dawns on the younger Archmage that the sorcerer that saved him is, in fact, ''him'', but the Enchanced Archmage corrects his younger self by explaining that he is who the younger self will become.<!--No joke, that was fun to write, lol--> The younger Archmage demands the Enchanced Archmage help to reclaim the ''Grimorum'' from Goliath, but the Enchanced Archmage insists that it will be reclaimed in good time; the spell book must fulfill its role in the timestream. The younger Archmage is clearly impatient, wondering why he was even brought to these waters. The Enhanced Archmage suggests he could take his younger self back to where he found him, and his younger self takes the hint. The Enchanced Archmage encourages his younger self to think: what does he want? The younger Archmage quickly responds, "Ultimate power – and revenge!" The Enhanced Archmage lists off what they will need practically to achieve these goals: allies, soldiers, weapons, and a base of operations. "Be silent, and watch," he instructs his younger self. The two Archmages watch the Magus, [[Mary]], Tom, Princess Katharine, [[Finella]], and the gargoyle Eggs float in front of them on three separate skiffs. The younger Archmage reasons that they are here to take the ''Grimorum'' from the Magus at this point in time, but the Enhanced Archmage scolds him: "If you DON'T know, DON'T guess." He explains they are here to make powerful allies. The two watch as the Weird Sisters begin to grow into giants on their [[Barge]], preparing to attack the mortals. Princess Katharine begs for the Magus to do something and he is quick to react; as the Weird Sisters' energies converge on the Magus, he successfully manages to not only block their magic, but bounce it back onto the Weird Sisters, turning them into barn owls. Even as owls they attack, but the Magus swats them away with his oar. They fly off, screeching. <br />
<br />
Princess Katharine and Finella's skiff floats up to the Magus's, and Katharine celebrates his victory, but the Magus is dejected, declaring that he can't go with them to Avalon. He can't bring the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''; but the book is essentially a map to Avalon, and he won't risk Constantine or his sorcerers getting their hands on it. The younger Archmage is stunned that the Magus is giving up the "source of his power" and wonders if they are going to take the book from Mary and Finella. The Enhanced Archmage reprimands his younger self once more; history cannot be changed. The younger Archmage grows infuriated – if his older self is so powerful, why can't he get what what the younger self needs? But as they fly to the Weird Sister's barge, the Enhanced Archmage explains that if the younger Archmage doesn't get them for himself, then the Enhanced Archmage won't have them in the future. The Enhanced Archmage restores the Weird Sisters with a hand wave and the word "Revert". The three are not amused: they explain that [[Oberon]] charged them with protecting the gates to Avalon, but they have now been banished from the island by a "magician's parlor tricks". The Enhanced Archmage offers an alliance, but [[Selene]] explains matter-of-factly that they make no pacts with sorcerers. But when the Enhanced Archmage promises them a chance for revenge, [[Phoebe]] informs them that they will listen to his proposition. The Archmage explains it will take some time, but [[Luna]] is unconcerned: "What is time to an immortal?" The Archmage declares they will meet again in twenty-five years and that they will all have their vengeance.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
The two Archmages arrive in Scotland, 1020 AD. In Dunsinane, several men stand guard outside a granary when the roar of gargoyles echoes towards them. A band of gargoyles descends from the sky and traps the men in a net. The gargoyle leader breaks into the granary with a mace, and her gargoyles start gathering food. The younger Archmage recognizes the gargoyle leader as his former apprentice who betrayed him – she certainly cannot be an ally. The Enhanced Archmage clarifies that Demona will not be an ally but cannon-fodder . . . and the first of the soldiers they will need. "Trust me, we're not doing her any favors," he assures his younger self. The Weird Sisters arrive to witness the selection.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, [[Findlaech]] and a young Macbeth enthusiastically spar on the balcony of [[Castle Moray]]. As they watch the nobles, the younger Archmage is dismissive of the boy as a candidate, but the Enhanced Archmage explains that Macbeth will be a great warrior if he should survive to adulthood. The Weird Sisters appear once more and the Enhanced Archmage instructs the three to protect Demona and Macbeth, to guide their courses. Luna interjects, reminding them of [[Oberon's Law]], which forbids the Weird Sisters from directly interfering with human events. The Enhanced Archmage counters, saying "The law that cannot be broken can surely be bent." Phoebe agrees. As they begin to depart, the Enhanced Archmage tells the Weird Sisters to look out for the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'', the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate. Selene is perplexed: The Enhanced Archmage already has the Eye and the Gate. At this, the Enhanced Archmage laughs: he won't have the talismans until the three bring them to him in the future. He'll meet the Weird Sisters again at the watery gates of Avalon in nine hundred seventy-five years.<br />
<br />
The younger Archmage can barely wrap his head around the expanse of time: "Nine hundred and seventy-five years?!" The Enhnaced Archmage glares at him.<br />
<br />
The two Archmages arrive on the Weird Sisters' barge in [[Timeline#1995|1995]], a day before Guardian set out to find Goliath. The Enhanced Archmage asks his younger self what he will do with the ultimate power he's always dreamed of once the Weird Sisters deliver the [[Three Keys to Power]]. The younger Archmage admits he hasn't thought that far ahead: "Perhaps I'll conquer Scotland . . .?" The Enhanced Archmage tells him that with so much power, a single nation is too simple; they could conquer the [[Earth|world]]. He warns his younger self that the modern world has become a place of science, not sorcery, and that any weapon today is as powerful as any spell cast. For that reason, the younger self will need a base of operations that humans cannot reach. The younger Archmage puts two and two together finally: Avalon will serve as the safe place to launch his assault on the world, once it is rid of the few humans and gargoyles that currently inhabit the island.<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters arrive with the talismans and an entranced Demona and Macbeth. The Enhanced Archmage commands Selene to give his younger self the Eye of Odin. He magically fashions a skull cap for his younger self to wear on his brow. The Eye enhances the younger Archmage, giving him a similar appearance to his older self. The older Archmage explains that his younger self has power but lacks the knowledge to which to wield it, commanding Phoebe to give him the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''. The Weird Sisters are resistant: the Gate and the Eye may have been forged on Avalon, but the ''Grimorum'' contains mortal magic. "By Oberon's Law, no magics may enter here save Avalon's own," Luna asserts. The younger self grows indignant; they went through all this trouble to get the ''Grimorum'' and he can't bring it to Avalon? The younger Archmage sarcastically asks, "What am I supposed to do, eat it?!" and the older Archmage merely replies that his younger self ''is'' learning. Hearing his older self's hint, the younger Enhanced Archmage proceeds to magically consume the ''Grimorum'', much to the Weird Sisters' shock. Sated, the younger Archmage now understands; they bend the law without breaking it. The book is a part of him now and can go where he goes. With that, the older Archmage commands Luna to give the Phoenix Gate to his younger self. Luna asks what are they to do with the Sleeping King, and the younger Archmage is surprised that the legends are true. Selene declares: "All things are true," explaining that Sleeping King rests in his [[Hollow Hill]]. The older Archmage prioritizes taking the island first. After that, they can be sure the Sleeping King never wakes. <br />
<br />
The older Archmage orders the Weird Sisters and their charges to proceed, and revels to his younger self at the fact that everything is going according to his plan: "As it did, as it must, and as it always will!" He laughs maniacally as they depart in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
Six hours before Guardian arrived with Goliath, Elisa, and Bronx, he sits at an outdoor table waiting to be joined by Princess Katharine and the Magus. As the Sun sets on the mystical island, the rest of the Avalon Clan begins to wake up from their [[Stone Sleep]]. As the gargoyles join the humans down below, the Palace walls explode, debris and rubble raining down on those nearby. The Weird Sisters vanish as soon as they appear as an entranced Demona takes to attacking the gargoyles from above while Macbeth covers the assault on the ground. Angela demands to know who they are and what they want, but they are unresponsive. Demona and Macebeth fire their weapons on the untrained gargoyles, and Demona even swipes her claws at another gargoyle's wing, cutting them with her slashing. The two are magically pulled back by the Weird Sisters, vanishing from sight. The Enhanced Archmage appears in the Phoenix's flames, blasting energy at the gargoyles trying to flee. One gargoyle attempts to throw a spear at the Enhanced Archmage, only for him to disappear from his aim and reappear behind the gargoyle, attacking with another energy blast. Guardian pulls out his sword and commands the clan to regroup to him, when the Enhanced Archmage's face suddenly appears from the sky. He tells the Avalon Clan that this skirmish was just a demonstration of his power. The Enhanced Archmage declares that they have until dawn before he returns to destroy them all.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, Selene wonders why they were called off from the attack. The older Archmage explains that if they wait until dawn, the gargoyles will be stone and defenseless, leaving three humans to finish off. Further, he needs time for them to bring Goliath. Otherwise, his vengeance would not be complete.<br />
<br />
A minute earlier, the two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The remaining Enhanced Archmage says to himself: "Finally. I thought he'd never leave!"<br />
<br />
Back at Oberon's Palace, Guardian explains that after the Archmage's first assault, he went in search of help, mentioning that, "thankfully, Avalon dropped me in your laps." Princess Katharine and the Magus remind everyone that they are running out time. If they don't defeat the Enhanced Archmage and his forces before sunrise, "the next battle will be over before it begins." Gabriel informs everyone that they have three hours left until dawn. Goliath is confident about taking on Demona and Macbeth, but he needs the help of the Magus and his magic if they hope to take on the Enhanced Archmage. The Magus tells everyone that, without the ''Grimorum'', he is useless. Princess Katharine vehemently disagrees, telling him not to say it, let alone think it. She goes to comfort him as Goliath strategizes that if they can recover the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate, it reduce the Archmage's power considerably. Even if that were possible, he knows they can't take on their enemies in a frontal assault. Knowing it will take stealth and be surgical to succeed, he takes only Angela and Gabriel as his guides. As they leave, Goliath asks Elisa to think of a contingency plan in case their efforts fall short. Elisa isn't sure where to start when she suddenly remembers something the Magus mentioned. She asks the three humans to tell her about the Sleeping King.<br />
<br />
From the Grotto's waters, the Enhanced Archmage sees Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel approach. "Now the fun really begins!" he says and begins to laugh maniacally once more.<br />
<br />
''To Be Concluded . . .''<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Avalon Clan]]<br />
* [[Oberon's Law]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "Don't crow too loudly. After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." -- The Archmage<br />
* "Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us" -- Guardian<br />
* "She's not an ally, she's cannon-fodder. The first of the warriors you will need. Trust me, we're not doing her any favors . . ." -- The Archmage<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
Angela, Gabriel, and the other gargoyle members of the Avalon Clan are introduced in this episode. Angela becomes a regular cast member beginning in this episode.<br />
<br />
Elisa Maza comments to Goliath that Angela "looks like Demona, but her coloring's different" and asks about her parentage. This foreshadows the revelation in [[Monsters|"Monsters"]] that Angela is the biological daughter of Goliath and Demona. Goliath's response (that gargoyle children are raised by the entire [[clan]]) foreshadows his reluctance to accept her as his daughter until the episode [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]].<br />
<br />
Angela is not the only member of the Avalon Clan to be the biological offspring of two gargoyles whom we had already met in the series. Gabriel is, in fact, the biological son of [[Othello]] and [[Desdemona]] (as his appearance strongly hints) – though this would not be confirmed until [[Reunion|"Reunion"]]. (On a related note, [[Greg Weisman]] has also mentioned that [[Broadway]] is [[Hudson]]'s biological son, although neither of them are at all interested in this piece of information, thanks to the gargoyle custom of "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan.")<br />
<br />
The Archmage travels back to 984, and witnesses the events depicted in flashback in "Long Way To Morning". We learn that the Archmage was able to survive his plunge into the chasm by rescuing his past self.<br />
<br />
During the Archmage's visit to 1020, Demona's granary robbery from [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] reappears, this time from his perspective, and Findlaech makes a cameo, teaching Macbeth swordplay.<br />
<br />
The "Sleeping King" is referenced for the first time, foreshadowing Arthur Pendragon's introduction in the following episode.<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
In the original draft for "Avalon" Part Two, the Archmages' time loop included two more stops that had to be cut for time: a visit to Scotland in 1040 (where the Enhanced Archmage instructs the Weird Sisters to make Demona and Macbeth immortal) and to [[New York]] in the present day, during the events in [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] (where the Enhanced Archmage would deliver further instructions to the Weird Sisters that would lead to their actions in that episode).<br />
<br />
The latter scene, incidentally, could explain a remark by the Enhanced Archmage to his former self about how the modern world is now powered by science and technology rather than by [[magic]]. From the point of view of the episode as aired, this is astonishing, since his time in the 20th century is spent entirely on Avalon, rather than the outside world, and so he could not have seen this first-hand. He also calls Demona "cannon-fodder." (Admittedly, he does witness Demona and Macbeth making use of their high-tech firearms in their initial assault upon the palace, which could be how he learned of it. An even more entertaining possibility is that the Archmage doesn't actually know this fact, but only says it because it's all part of the time loop!) These lines might have been left over from the longer version of the episode, where he would have had the opportunity to learn of this during his brief stopover in [[Manhattan]] during the 1990s.<br />
<br />
When Goliath is surprised that the Avalon Clan has names, Angela responds "Of course, how else could we tell each other apart?" This mirrors Tom's question in [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening"]], "How do you tell each other apart?" to which Lexington replied "We look different."<br />
<br />
Early in this episode, the Archmage mocks the gargoyles by saying, "What have you achieved?! You beat up a beach!" This is referenced in the animated series ''[[W.I.T.C.H.]]'', in the episode "I is for Illusion", when one of the protagonists asks "How are we supposed to beat up a beach?" while fighting the monster Sandpit. Season 2 of ''W.I.T.C.H.'' was story edited and produced by Greg Weisman, and the episode was written by [[Cary Bates]]. The quote would also be referenced in the second season of ''[[The Spectacular Spider-Man]]''.<br />
<br />
When the Archmage proclaims how everything is going according to his plan to his younger self (more specifically when he says "as it always will"), the background switches to their base on the island, which they had not yet reached, but appears earlier and later in the episode as the only other place both of them had the "Enhanced Archmage" look.<br />
<br />
==Archmage's time loop==<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|thumb|500px|The Archmage's travels through time.]]<br />
Greg Weisman describes this time loop as a "quirk of the timestream", a "working paradox" without independent origin, as opposed to the "[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox Grandfather chestnut]". When trying to illustrate the mechanics of the loop, Weisman compared it to his own "Gettysburgh chestnut":<br />
<br />
:''"I am a historian. My specialty is Abraham Lincoln. I travel back in time and meet him just before he's scheduled to give the Gettysburgh Address. To my horror, I discover that he's got writer's block. The most famous speech a president ever gave, and Abe can't think of what to write. I panic. And "write" the speech for him. Of course I didn't compose it. I simply write down the Gettysburgh Address from memory. Abe loves it. Gives the speech. Reporters transcribe it. Historians put it in history books. I study it and go back in time. Time flows unbroken. It is a "working" paradox. A paradox that doesn't short circuit the time stream. Now it raises a HUGE question? Who composed the Address? Not Abe, he got it from me. Not me, I got if from a history book. Not the historians or the reporters, they got it from Abe. The answer is it was born with the timestream, created by God or the Big Bang or whatever. It is mysterious. But it works."'' [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=2] <br />
<br />
Both the Gettysburgh and the Archmage's loop fall in line with the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop bootstrap paradox theory], which essentially represents a causal loop that was not created by third party tempering of the timestream—it simply exists. This paradigm complies with the time travel rules innate to the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]], which establish that time cannot be changed.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
The scene where Elisa fires her gun three times at the Sand-Archmage's head was removed. The three bullets passing through and the holes closing afterwards is missing. Also, it cuts out the scene where Bronx and Boudicca pounce on two other Sand-Archmage heads (the one's imprisoning Angela and Gabriel) and slash at them.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=181 Background Memo]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=182 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep35.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part One|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part One]]''' <br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Three|Next Episode: "Avalon" Part Three >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Avalon_Part_Two&diff=39441Avalon Part Two2023-11-14T13:13:54Z<p>Merlyn: /* Act One */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Avalon2.JPG|thumb|260px|]]<br />
<br />
'''"Avalon" Part Two''' is the thirty-fifth televised episode of the series ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'', and the twenty-second episode of Season 2. It originally aired on November 21, 1995.<br />
<br />
* Supervising Producers: [[Frank Paur]], [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
* Written by: [[Lydia Marano]]<br />
* Story Edited by: [[Brynne Chandler|Brynne Chandler Reaves]]<br />
* Produced & Directed by: [[Dennis Woodyard]]<br />
* Animation by: [[Koko Entertainment Co., LTD]]<br />
* Backgrounds by: Koko Entertainment Co., LTD<br />
* Additional Production Facilities: [[Anima Sam Won Co., LTD]]<br />
<br />
==Summary==<br />
==The Story==<br />
===[[Previously on Gargoyles]]===<br />
*'''Recap''': ''([[Avalon Part One|"Avalon" Part One]], [[Long Way to Morning|"Long Way to Morning"]])''<br />
<br />
===Act One===<br />
On the shores of [[Avalon]], [[Goliath]], [[Elisa Maza|Elisa]], [[Bronx]], and [[Guardian]] look upon two fully grown [[gargoyle]]s and a [[gargoyle beast]] standing on a nearby cliff. They glide down and the female gargoyle greets Guardian with a warm embrace. Elisa can't help but ask, "''These'' are [["The Eggs"|'The Eggs']]?" and Guardian clarifies that he's always called them that. The [[Boudicca|female gargoyle beast]] also rushes to Guardian before Bronx begins to interact with both. The female gargoyle approaches Goliath, telling him she's heard so much about him that it's like a dream come true. Guardian introduces her to both Goliath and Elisa as [[Angela]]. Goliath is surprised that the gargoyles were given names, and Angela comments on the practicality of the matter, "How else could we tell each other apart?" The male gargoyle, [[Gabriel]], beckons everyone to head to the [[Oberon's Palace|castle]] and Angela notes that the area is dangerous.<br />
<br />
As they walk away, the sands begin to shift beneath Goliath's feet. The sand rises, taking the shape of a bearded man, towering over Goliath. Goliath recognizes the voice and face as that of the [[Archmage]], and a second sand construct proceeds to clobber Goliath with an arm formed as a mace and bury him in sand. Sand vines begin to ensnare both Angela and Gabriel, as well as Bronx and the other gargoyle beast. One of the Archmage sand constructs pauses from burying Goliath to confront Elisa and Guardian. The two humans draw their weapons, and Elisa shoots two bullets into the head of the Sand-Archmage, but to no avail. Elisa then dodges an arm made of sand emerging from the abdomen of the Sand-Archmage, which Guardian slices away with his sword. Now on the ground, sand proceeds to bind Elisa to the beach like the gargoyle beasts. More Archmage sand constructs surround Guardian, but he continues to attack, slicing one Sand-Archmage from its head down to its torso, only for the sand to take hold of his sword. As it slams Guardian into another sand construct, the Archmage mocks the human, telling Guardian he gave them all until dawn to prepare for death when he used that time to look for help. Sand heads of the Archmage form above Angela and Gabriel, who begin to suffocate from the sand around them. From the sand heads, the Archmage insists there is no one that can stop him, and is insulted that Guardian and the others thought otherwise. Growing frustrated from the sand and insults hurled at him, Goliath breaks free from the mound burying him. He quickly frees Elisa just as another sand construct of the Archmage attacks Goliath, its arms shifting shape into pointed spears. Goliath jumps at that Sand-Archmage, slashing its head down to the neck. The two other Sand-Archmages begin to tower over Elisa to strike at Goliath, but Goliath pounces on both, decapitating both and continuing to pound one of the constructs to the ground. From below, Elisa pulls Guardian out of one of the sand Archmages while Bronx and the other gargoyle beast free Angela and Gabriel. Goliath makes quick work of the third sand-Archmage when the sands shift beneath their feet once more to form one last Archmage construct, who succinctly mocks the group's efforts: "After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." At this point, the Sand-Archmage has grown gargoyle-like wings and then turns to literal stone before it explodes, raining rubble on Goliath and the others.<br />
<br />
"Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us," Guardian comments. As they walk, Elisa joins Goliath and asks about Angela, noting that she looks like [[Demona]] but with a different complexion. "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan, Elisa. It is the Gargoyle Way," is all that Goliath provides. <br />
<br />
They make their way to Oberon's Palace, which is positively teeming with gargoyles, but with many injured. As they enter a hall serving a makeshift hospital, Goliath asks how many are wounded, and Angela and Gabriel explain the clan was unprepared and had no need to practice their combat skills before this night. The [[Magus]] and [[Princess Katharine]], both much older, are treating the wounded as best they can. Katharine stops what she's doing to greet Tom, relieved at his safe return. Elisa can't help but notice the two's warm embrace and the impact it has on the older Magus. Goliath is in awe<!--maybe this isn't the right word, but how else to convey his surprise that she and the Eggs's are still alive?--> to greet Princess Katharine once more, and her spirits grow more cheerful and hopeful. Goliath expresses to her that he is glad to be here – that Katharine's protection of the clan's children was something he never dreamed that he would ever witness. Katharine laments that if only the times were equally glad. She tends to a [[Ophelia|wounded gargoyle]], and Goliath registers that the injury was caused by laser burns, and asks how the battle transpired. While the Magus busies himself making natural remedies and poultices for the wounded, he explains to Goliath that since they arrived on Avalon, the island has been completely deserted – except for the [[Arthur Pendragon|Sleeping King]] – and peaceful, until this recent attack. The [[Weird Sisters]] led the attack, followed by two with "magical" weapons. Guardian describes the first as a bearded man and the other a gargoyle they recognized as Goliath's Second-in-Command. Goliath and Elisa recognize Demona and [[Macbeth]] in the descriptions and they figure the two, who normally hate each other, must still be under the control of the Weird Sisters. The Magus then explains that it is his old master, the Archmage, that commands their attackers. But this Archmage is a more powerful sorcerer; he wears the [[Eye of Odin]] on his brow and carries the Phoenix Gate. If the Magus wasn't confident that the ''[[Grimorum Arcanorum]]'' couldn't be brought to the island, he would swear the Archmage had that as well. Elisa then figures that Demona and Macbeth must have stolen those talismans from Goliath while under the Weird Sisters' thrall, who Goliath figures gave them to the Archmage. Guardian admits that the Archmage seems formidable enough to seem to be at two places at once. <br />
<br />
On the island, Demona and Macbeth stand by with their modern weapons as the Weird Sisters relax, sitting and looking at the reflection of the [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]. Two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The Archmage arrives in [[Scotland]], [[Timeline#Before 994|984 AD]], witnessing his younger self battle a younger Hudson, Goliath, and Demona in [[Archmage's Cave|his cave]]. As his younger self attacks the three gargoyles with his [[Lightning Spell]], the older Archmage thinks to himself how his younger self starts off well enough, but he lacks control (especially in regard to his temper). Having lost the ''Grimorum'' at this point in the battle, the Archmage from 984 grabs a broken stalactite from the ground and runs at them with it, with intent to impale Goliath or his then-Angel. The gargoyles move aside, and the Archmage loses his footing, falling into the chasm and out of sight. ''There is so much to teach him'', the enhanced Archmage from the present day muses, and activates the Phoenix Gate, taking him to the chasm below with enough time to save his younger self. The younger Archmage is shaken from the near-death experience, the sight of the sorcerer who saved him, or both, but the Enhanced Archmage has no patience for him. The younger Archmage asks who just saved him, but the Enchanced Archmage merely activates the Phoenix's flames once more, only demanding "Patience" to his younger self.<br />
<br />
The two arrive in the middle of unknown waters of [[Timeline#995-1994|995 AD]], and the Archmage from 984 panics that he can't swim. The Enhanced Archmage merely commands the word "Vessel" with a hand out-stretched, and a [[Skiff]] rises from the depths for them to land on. It dawns on the younger Archmage that the sorcerer that saved him is, in fact, ''him'', but the Enchanced Archmage corrects his younger self by explaining that he is who the younger self will become.<!--No joke, that was fun to write, lol--> The younger Archmage demands the Enchanced Archmage help to reclaim the ''Grimorum'' from Goliath, but the Enchanced Archmage insists that it will be reclaimed in good time; the spell book must fulfill its role in the timestream. The younger Archmage is clearly impatient, wondering why he was even brought to these waters. The Enhanced Archmage suggests he could take his younger self back to where he found him, and his younger self takes the hint. The Enchanced Archmage encourages his younger self to think: what does he want? The younger Archmage quickly responds, "Ultimate power – and revenge!" The Enhanced Archmage lists off what they will need practically to achieve these goals: allies, soldiers, weapons, and a base of operations. "Be silent, and watch," he instructs his younger self. The two Archmages watch the Magus, [[Mary]], Tom, Princess Katharine, [[Finella]], and the gargoyle Eggs float in front of them on three separate skiffs. The younger Archmage reasons that they are here to take the ''Grimorum'' from the Magus at this point in time, but the Enhanced Archmage scolds him: "If you DON'T know, DON'T guess." He explains they are here to make powerful allies. The two watch as the Weird Sisters begin to grow into giants on their [[Barge]], preparing to attack the mortals. Princess Katharine begs for the Magus to do something and he is quick to react; as the Weird Sisters' energies converge on the Magus, he successfully manages to not only block their magic, but bounce it back onto the Weird Sisters, turning them into barn owls. Even as owls they attack, but the Magus swats them away with his oar. They fly off, screeching. <br />
<br />
Princess Katharine and Finella's skiff floats up to the Magus's, and Katharine celebrates his victory, but the Magus is dejected, declaring that he can't go with them to Avalon. He can't bring the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''; but the book is essentially a map to Avalon, and he won't risk Constantine or his sorcerers getting their hands on it. The younger Archmage is stunned that the Magus is giving up the "source of his power" and wonders if they are going to take the book from Mary and Finella. The Enhanced Archmage reprimands his younger self once more; history cannot be changed. The younger Archmage grows infuriated – if his older self is so powerful, why can't he get what what the younger self needs? But as they fly to the Weird Sister's barge, the Enhanced Archmage explains that if the younger Archmage doesn't get them for himself, then the Enhanced Archmage won't have them in the future. The Enhanced Archmage restores the Weird Sisters with a hand wave and the word "Revert". The three are not amused: they explain that [[Oberon]] charged them with protecting the gates to Avalon, but they have now been banished from the island by a "magician's parlor tricks". The Enhanced Archmage offers an alliance, but [[Selene]] explains matter-of-factly that they make no pacts with sorcerers. But when the Enhanced Archmage promises them a chance for revenge, [[Phoebe]] informs them that they will listen to his proposition. The Archmage explains it will take some time, but [[Luna]] is unconcerned: "What is time to an immortal?" The Archmage declares they will meet again in twenty-five years and that they will all have their vengeance.<br />
<br />
===Act Two===<br />
The two Archmages arrive in Scotland, 1020 AD. In Dunsinane, several men stand guard outside a granary when the roar of gargoyles echoes towards them. A band of gargoyles descend from the sky and trap the men in a net. The gargoyle leader breaks into the granary with a mace, and her gargoyles start gathering food. The younger Archmage recognizes the gargoyle leader as his former apprentice who betrayed him – she certainly cannot be an ally. The Enhanced Archmage clarifies that Demona will not be an ally but canon-fodder . . . and the first of the soldiers they will need. "Trust me, we're not doing her any favors," he assures his younger self. The Weird Sisters arrive to witness the selection.<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, [[Findlaech]] and a young Macbeth enthusiastically spar on the balcony of [[Castle Moray]]. As they watch the nobles, the younger Archmage is dismissive of the boy as a candidate, but the Enhanced Archmage explains that Macbeth will be a great warrior if he should survive to adulthood. The Weird Sisters appear once more and the Enhanced Archmage instructs the three to protect Demona and Macbeth, to guide their courses. Luna interjects, reminding them of [[Oberon's Law]], which forbids the Weird Sisters from directly interfering with human events. The Enhanced Archmage counters, saying "The law that cannot be broken can surely be bent." Phoebe agrees. As they begin to depart, the Enhanced Archmage tells the Weird Sisters to look out for the ''Grimorum Arcanorum'', the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate. Selene is perplexed: The Enhanced Archmage already has the Eye and the Gate. At this, the Enhanced Archmage laughs: he won't have the talismans until the three bring the them to him in the future. He'll meet the Weird Sisters again at the watery gates of Avalon in nine hundred seventy-five years.<br />
<br />
The younger Archmage can barely wrap his head around the expanse of time: "Nine hundred and seventy-five years?!" The Enhnaced Archmage glares at him.<br />
<br />
The two Archmages arrive on the Weird Sisters' barge in [[Timeline#1995|1995]], a day before Guardian set out to find Goliath. The Enhanced Archmage asks his younger self what he will do with the ultimate power he's always dreamed of once the Weird Sisters deliver the [[Three Keys to Power]]. The younger Archmage admits he hasn't thought that far ahead: "Perhaps I'll conquer Scotland . . .?" With so much power, a single nation is too simple – they could conquer the [[Earth|world]], the Enhanced Archmage explains. He warns his younger self that the modern world has become a place of science, not sorcery and that any weapon today is as powerful as any spell cast. For that reason, the younger self will need a base of operations that humans cannot reach. The younger Archmage puts two and two together finally: Avalon will serve as the safe place to launch his assault on the world, once it is rid of the few humans and gargoyles that currently inhabit the island.<br />
<br />
The Weird Sisters arrive with the talismans and an entranced Demona and Macbeth. The Enhanced Archmage commands Selene to give his younger self the Eye of Odin. He magically fashions a skull cap for his younger self to wear on his brow. The Eye enhances the younger Archmage, giving him a similar appearance to his older self. The older Archmage explains that his younger self has power but lacks the knowledge to which to wield it, demanding Phoebe to give him the ''Grimorum Arcanorum''. The Weird Sisters are resistant: the Gate and the Eye may have been forged on Avalon, but the ''Grimorum'' contains mortal magic. "By Oberon's Law, no magics may enter here save Avalon's own," Luna asserts. The younger self grows indignant; they went through all this trouble to get the ''Grimorum'' and he can't bring it to Avalon? The younger Archmage sarcastically asks, "What am I supposed to do, eat it?!" and the older Archmage merely replies that his younger self ''is'' learning. Hearing his older self's hint, the younger Enhanced Archmage proceeds to magically consume the ''Grimorum'', much to the Weird Sisters' shock. Sated, the younger Archmage now understands: they bend the law without breaking it. The book is a part of him now and can go where he goes. With that, the older Archmage commands Luna to give the Phoenix Gate to his younger self. Luna asks what are they to do with the Sleeping King, and the younger Archmage is surprised that the legends are true. Selene declares: "All things are true," explaining that Sleeping King rests in his [[Hollow Hill]]. The older Archmage prioritizes taking the island first. After that, they can be sure the Sleeping King never wakes. <br />
<br />
The older Archmage orders the Weird Sisters and their charges to proceed, and revels to his younger self at the fact that everything is going according to his plan: "As it did, as it must, and as it always will!" He laughs maniacally as they depart in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
===Act Three===<br />
Six hours before Guardian arrived with Goliath, Elisa, and Bronx, he sits at an outdoor table waiting to be joined by Princess Katharine and the Magus. As the Sun sets on the mystical island, the rest of the Avalon Clan begins to wake up from their [[Stone Sleep]]. As the gargoyles join the humans down below, the Palace walls explode, debris and rubble raining down on those nearby. The Weird Sisters vanish as soon as they appear as an entranced Demona takes to attacking the gargoyles from above while Macbeth covers the assault on the ground. Angela demands to know who they are and what they want, but they are unresponsive. Demona and Macebeth fire their weapons on the untrained gargoyles, and Demona even swipes her claws at another gargoyle's wing, cutting them with her slashing. The two are magically pulled back by the Weird Sisters, vanishing from sight. The Enhanced Archmage appears in the Phoenix's flames, blasting energy at the gargoyles trying to flee. One gargoyle attempts to throw a spear at the Enhanced Archmage, only for him to disappear from his aim and reappear behind the gargoyle, attacking with another energy blast. Guardian pulls out his sword and commands the clan to regroup to him, when the Enhanced Archmage's face suddenly appears from the sky. He tells the Avalon Clan that this skirmish was just a demonstration of his power. The Enhanced Archmage declares that they have until dawn before he returns to destroy them all.<br />
<br />
At the Grotto, Selene wonders why they were called off from the attack. The older Archmage explains that if they wait until dawn, the gargoyles will be stone and defenseless, leaving three humans to finish off. Further, he needs time for them to bring Goliath. Otherwise, his vengeance would not be complete.<br />
<br />
A minute earlier, the two identical Archmages look at the pool as well, enchanted to show the conversation between Goliath and the Avalon Clan at Oberon's Palace. The Archmage tells his older self that all the pieces are now in place, while the younger self revels that Goliath and his clan are doomed. The older Archmage asks if the younger is about to leave, double-checking if he knows what to do. The younger Archmage assures his older self that he does while activating the Phoenix Gate on his chest: "I should. I watched ''you'' do it." He vanishes in the Phoenix's flames.<br />
<br />
The remaining Enhanced Archmage says to himself: "Finally. I thought he'd never leave!"<br />
<br />
Back at Oberon's Palace, Guardian explains that after the Archmage's first assault, he went in search of help, mentioning that, "thankfully, Avalon dropped me in your laps." Princess Katharine and the Magus remind everyone that they are running out time. If they don't defeat the Enhanced Archmage and his forces before sunrise, "the next battle will be over before it begins." Gabriel informs everyone that they have three hours left until dawn. Goliath is confident about taking on Demona and Macbeth, but he needs the help of the Magus and his magic if they hope to take on the Enhanced Archmage. The Magus tells everyone that, without the ''Grimorum'', he is useless. Princess Katharine vehemently disagrees, telling him not to say it, let alone think it. She goes to comfort him as Goliath strategizes that if they can recover the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate, it reduce the Archmage's power considerably. Even if that were possible, he knows they can't take on their enemies in a frontal assault. Knowing it will take stealth and be surgical to succeed, he takes only Angela and Gabriel as his guides. As they leave, Goliath asks Elisa to think of a contingency plan in case their efforts fall short. Elisa isn't sure where to start when she suddenly remembers something the Magus mentioned. She asks the three humans to tell her about the Sleeping King.<br />
<br />
From the Grotto's waters, the Enhanced Archmage sees Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel approach. "Now the fun really begins!" he says and begins to laugh maniacally once more.<br />
<br />
''To Be Concluded . . .''<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Arthur Pendragon]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Locations===<br />
* [[Grotto (Avalon)|Grotto]]<br />
* [[Hollow Hill]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Avalon Clan]]<br />
* [[Oberon's Law]]<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
* "Don't crow too loudly. After all, what have you achieved?! You beat up a beach! At dawn, you ALL will die! Get used to it." -- The Archmage<br />
* "Let's get back to the Palace before the very AIR attacks us" -- Guardian<br />
* "She's not an ally, she's cannon-fodder. The first of the warriors you will need. Trust me, we're not doing her any favors . . ." -- The Archmage<br />
<br />
==Continuity==<br />
Angela, Gabriel, and the other gargoyle members of the Avalon Clan are introduced in this episode. Angela becomes a regular cast member beginning in this episode.<br />
<br />
Elisa Maza comments to Goliath that Angela "looks like Demona, but her coloring's different" and asks about her parentage. This foreshadows the revelation in [[Monsters|"Monsters"]] that Angela is the biological daughter of Goliath and Demona. Goliath's response (that gargoyle children are raised by the entire [[clan]]) foreshadows his reluctance to accept her as his daughter until the episode [[Mark of the Panther (episode)|"Mark of the Panther"]].<br />
<br />
Angela is not the only member of the Avalon Clan to be the biological offspring of two gargoyles whom we had already met in the series. Gabriel is, in fact, the biological son of [[Othello]] and [[Desdemona]] (as his appearance strongly hints) – though this would not be confirmed until [[Reunion|"Reunion"]]. (On a related note, [[Greg Weisman]] has also mentioned that [[Broadway]] is [[Hudson]]'s biological son, although neither of them are at all interested in this piece of information, thanks to the gargoyle custom of "Daughters and sons belong to the whole clan.")<br />
<br />
The Archmage travels back to 984, and witnesses the events depicted in flashback in "Long Way To Morning". We learn that the Archmage was able to survive his plunge into the chasm by rescuing his past self.<br />
<br />
During the Archmage's visit to 1020, Demona's granary robbery from [[City of Stone Part One|"City of Stone" Part One]] reappears, this time from his perspective, and Findlaech makes a cameo, teaching Macbeth swordplay.<br />
<br />
The "Sleeping King" is referenced for the first time, foreshadowing Arthur Pendragon's introduction in the following episode.<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
In the original draft for "Avalon" Part Two, the Archmages' time loop included two more stops that had to be cut for time: a visit to Scotland in 1040 (where the Enhanced Archmage instructs the Weird Sisters to make Demona and Macbeth immortal) and to [[New York]] in the present day, during the events in [[City of Stone Part Three|"City of Stone" Part Three]] (where the Enhanced Archmage would deliver further instructions to the Weird Sisters that would lead to their actions in that episode).<br />
<br />
The latter scene, incidentally, could explain a remark by the Enhanced Archmage to his former self about how the modern world is now powered by science and technology rather than by [[magic]]. From the point of view of the episode as aired, this is astonishing, since his time in the 20th century is spent entirely on Avalon, rather than the outside world, and so he could not have seen this first-hand. He also calls Demona "cannon-fodder." (Admittedly, he does witness Demona and Macbeth making use of their high-tech firearms in their initial assault upon the palace, which could be how he learned of it. An even more entertaining possibility is that the Archmage doesn't actually know this fact, but only says it because it's all part of the time loop!) These lines might have been left over from the longer version of the episode, where he would have had the opportunity to learn of this during his brief stopover in [[Manhattan]] during the 1990s.<br />
<br />
When Goliath is surprised that the Avalon Clan has names, Angela responds "Of course, how else could we tell each other apart?" This mirrors Tom's question in [[Awakening Part One|"Awakening"]], "How do you tell each other apart?" to which Lexington replied "We look different."<br />
<br />
Early in this episode, the Archmage mocks the gargoyles by saying, "What have you achieved?! You beat up a beach!" This is referenced in the animated series ''[[W.I.T.C.H.]]'', in the episode "I is for Illusion", when one of the protagonists asks "How are we supposed to beat up a beach?" while fighting the monster Sandpit. Season 2 of ''W.I.T.C.H.'' was story edited and produced by Greg Weisman, and the episode was written by [[Cary Bates]]. The quote would also be referenced in the second season of ''[[The Spectacular Spider-Man]]''.<br />
<br />
When the Archmage proclaims how everything is going according to his plan to his younger self (more specifically when he says "as it always will"), the background switches to their base on the island, which they had not yet reached, but appears earlier and later in the episode as the only other place both of them had the "Enhanced Archmage" look.<br />
<br />
==Archmage's time loop==<br />
[[File:Archmage's time loop.png|thumb|500px|The Archmage's travels through time.]]<br />
Greg Weisman describes this time loop as a "quirk of the timestream", a "working paradox" without independent origin, as opposed to the "[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox Grandfather chestnut]". When trying to illustrate the mechanics of the loop, Weisman compared it to his own "Gettysburgh chestnut":<br />
<br />
:''"I am a historian. My specialty is Abraham Lincoln. I travel back in time and meet him just before he's scheduled to give the Gettysburgh Address. To my horror, I discover that he's got writer's block. The most famous speech a president ever gave, and Abe can't think of what to write. I panic. And "write" the speech for him. Of course I didn't compose it. I simply write down the Gettysburgh Address from memory. Abe loves it. Gives the speech. Reporters transcribe it. Historians put it in history books. I study it and go back in time. Time flows unbroken. It is a "working" paradox. A paradox that doesn't short circuit the time stream. Now it raises a HUGE question? Who composed the Address? Not Abe, he got it from me. Not me, I got if from a history book. Not the historians or the reporters, they got it from Abe. The answer is it was born with the timestream, created by God or the Big Bang or whatever. It is mysterious. But it works."'' [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=2] <br />
<br />
Both the Gettysburgh and the Archmage's loop fall in line with the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop bootstrap paradox theory], which essentially represents a causal loop that was not created by third party tempering of the timestream—it simply exists. This paradigm complies with the time travel rules innate to the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]], which establish that time cannot be changed.<br />
<br />
==Toon Disney/Disney XD Edits==<br />
The scene where Elisa fires her gun three times at the Sand-Archmage's head was removed. The three bullets passing through and the holes closing afterwards is missing. Also, it cuts out the scene where Bronx and Boudicca pounce on two other Sand-Archmage heads (the one's imprisoning Angela and Gabriel) and slash at them.<br />
<br />
==DVD Release==<br />
* ''[[Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One]]''<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=181 Background Memo]<br />
*[http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=182 Greg's Ramble]<br />
*[http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/ep35.htm Extensive Synopsis and Review]<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Avalon Part One|<< Previous Episode: "Avalon" Part One]]''' <br />
| '''[[Avalon Part Three|Next Episode: "Avalon" Part Three >>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Promise&diff=39391The Promise2023-11-11T01:18:34Z<p>Merlyn: /* Tidbits */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic4A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #4 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''The Promise''' is the fourth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on November 1st, 2023. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG230288]<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
"It's a busy day at [[Castle Wyvern]] - [[Coldfire|Desdemona]] studies to become a Gargoyle Priestess and [[Goliath]] is given an important title, which makes [[Coldsteel|Iago]] and [[Hyppolyta]] jealous. But things are about too get even busier when the younger [[Gargoyle]]'s curiosity leads them into a dangerous cave, where an unhappy evil lurks!<br />
<br />
The riveting tale of the Gargoyles' origin by writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continues in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, ERICA HENDERSON, and more!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
"The Oath" ended with an effective teaser; the eye of some enormous scaly beast, apparently a dragon. "The Promise", alas, does not advance this new thread, but makes up for it in the further development of other aspects of the tale of how Castle Wyvern came to be.<br />
<br />
For a start, we discover an exciting new mystery; the remains of a previous structure stand atop Wyvern Hill. While these help the construction crew with their castle-building project, they also raise the question about the nature of these ruins. Brother Valdez, a monk serving as the architect for Castle Wyvern, speculates that there might have been an earlier human-gargoyle alliance at Wyvern. While we probably won't learn more about that in the remaining two issues, it offers new possibilities for future stories.<br />
<br />
In the meantime, Alesand, Robbie's young daughter, explores the rookery, with some delightful scenes as she meets the eggs and make friends with the quartet. (She even bestows "unofficial" names on them all; "Caesar" for Brooklyn, "Alexander" for Lexington, "Charlemagne" for Broadway, and "Antiope" for the female gargoyle who's fourth member of the quartet - explaining those names in the "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" section.) Her response to the gargoyles is charming, especially at the end, where we see her dream that she sprouts wings and goes gliding with her new friends. (We also see that the other children in the nearby village are less at ease wtih the gargoyles, though, indicating that not all humans are as open towards these beings as she is.)<br />
<br />
And the castle receives visitors - the very troupe of players mentioned in the "Once Upon a Time" sections, now fully on-stage. They call themselves the "Light-Bringers", and their leaders, the Player King and Player Queen look familiar, as does another member, the storyteller Shahrizad. While most of the folk at Wyvern gladly welcome them, Brother Valdez displays strong suspicions towards them, suspicions that I hope will also be followed in the two issues to come. (The Player King only regards the monk with gentle amusement, though his wife is another matter....) As an additional treat, we now see the "storytelling framework" of the first instalment of "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" dramatized, watching as Shahrizad recounts the tale of Prince Malcolm's family to an audience of not only children - humans and gargoyles alike - but also including Robbie, Prince Malcolm, and a grim-faced Iago.<br />
<br />
To top it off, we get the start of parallel scenes of Desdemona training to become a "warrior-priestess" under Sacrifice's tutelage and Angel's first lesson under the Archmage. The two scenes are shown side by side (a feature common in the Dynamite "Gargoyles" comics), and display the contrast between the two teacher-and-pupil scenes effectively; my favorite part is at the end, where Sacrifice and the Archmage's statements to their charges - almost alike except for the difference of one word - illustrate the difference in their nature and style.<br />
<br />
My only concern about this issue is that I'm not sure that two issues will be enough to tell and complete the story that was hinted at one issue earlier, about the dragon. But what we did receive was a joy, and certainly makes a good interlude between the war with Culen and whatever adventure awaits....<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Brother Valdez]]<br />
* [[Mack Kemp]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Benvolio]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Malvolio]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[General Bones]] (No Lines)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Scone Clan]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Loch Ness Clan]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
The troupe of players, fittingly, continues "Gargoyles"'s fondness for Shakespeare allusions. The Player King and Queen's titles evoke the players in "Hamlet", two of the other actors are named "Benvolio" and "Malvolio" (adding ''Twelfth Night'' to the list of Shakespeare plays referenced in "Gargoyles"), and in the "Tale of the Three Brothers" section at the end, Shahrizad is called the "Dark Lady".<br />
<br />
The gargoyles' nighttime duty at Wyvern Hill is called the Nightwatch, a name that will later be adopted by the news program hosted by Travis Marshall in "The Journey".<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_4_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_4_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
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<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
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<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Three|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Three]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Five|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Five>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=The_Promise&diff=39390The Promise2023-11-11T01:13:31Z<p>Merlyn: /* Review */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:DarkAgesComic4A.JPG|thumb|310px|Gargoyles: Dark Ages #4 by Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
'''The Promise''' is the fourth issue of the ''[[Gargoyles: Dark Ages]]'' comic by [[Dynamite Entertainment]]. It was released on November 1st, 2023. [https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/AUG230288]<br />
<br />
*Writer/Creator: [[Greg Weisman]]<br />
*Pencil Artist: [[Drew Moss]] <br />
*Color Artist: [[Martina Pignedoli]]<br />
*Letterer: [[Jeff Eckleberry]]<br />
*Editor: [[Nate Cosby]]<br />
*Main Cover Artist: [[Clayton Crain]]<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solicitation==<br />
"It's a busy day at [[Castle Wyvern]] - [[Coldfire|Desdemona]] studies to become a Gargoyle Priestess and [[Goliath]] is given an important title, which makes [[Coldsteel|Iago]] and [[Hyppolyta]] jealous. But things are about too get even busier when the younger [[Gargoyle]]'s curiosity leads them into a dangerous cave, where an unhappy evil lurks!<br />
<br />
The riveting tale of the Gargoyles' origin by writer and Gargoyles creator GREG WEISMAN and artist DREW MOSS continues in this 40-page issue, which includes a new text story from Weisman and all cardstock covers featuring art by CLAYTON CRAIN, ALAN QUAH, MIRKA ANDOLFO, KENYA DANINO, ERICA HENDERSON, and more!<br />
<br />
==The Story==<br />
==Review==<br />
<br />
"The Oath" ended with an effective teaser; the eye of some enormous scaly beast, apparently a dragon. "The Promise", alas, does not advance this new thread, but makes up for it in the further development of other aspects of the tale of how Castle Wyvern came to be.<br />
<br />
For a start, we discover an exciting new mystery; the remains of a previous structure stand atop Wyvern Hill. While these help the construction crew with their castle-building project, they also raise the question about the nature of these ruins. Brother Valdez, a monk serving as the architect for Castle Wyvern, speculates that there might have been an earlier human-gargoyle alliance at Wyvern. While we probably won't learn more about that in the remaining two issues, it offers new possibilities for future stories.<br />
<br />
In the meantime, Alesand, Robbie's young daughter, explores the rookery, with some delightful scenes as she meets the eggs and make friends with the quartet. (She even bestows "unofficial" names on them all; "Caesar" for Brooklyn, "Alexander" for Lexington, "Charlemagne" for Broadway, and "Antiope" for the female gargoyle who's fourth member of the quartet - explaining those names in the "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" section.) Her response to the gargoyles is charming, especially at the end, where we see her dream that she sprouts wings and goes gliding with her new friends. (We also see that the other children in the nearby village are less at ease wtih the gargoyles, though, indicating that not all humans are as open towards these beings as she is.)<br />
<br />
And the castle receives visitors - the very troupe of players mentioned in the "Once Upon a Time" sections, now fully on-stage. They call themselves the "Light-Bringers", and their leaders, the Player King and Player Queen look familiar, as does another member, the storyteller Shahrizad. While most of the folk at Wyvern gladly welcome them, Brother Valdez displays strong suspicions towards them, suspicions that I hope will also be followed in the two issues to come. (The Player King only regards the monk with gentle amusement, though his wife is another matter....) As an additional treat, we now see the "storytelling framework" of the first instalment of "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" dramatized, watching as Shahrizad recounts the tale of Prince Malcolm's family to an audience of not only children - humans and gargoyles alike - but also including Robbie, Prince Malcolm, and a grim-faced Iago.<br />
<br />
To top it off, we get the start of parallel scenes of Desdemona training to become a "warrior-priestess" under Sacrifice's tutelage and Angel's first lesson under the Archmage. The two scenes are shown side by side (a feature common in the Dynamite "Gargoyles" comics), and display the contrast between the two teacher-and-pupil scenes effectively; my favorite part is at the end, where Sacrifice and the Archmage's statements to their charges - almost alike except for the difference of one word - illustrate the difference in their nature and style.<br />
<br />
My only concern about this issue is that I'm not sure that two issues will be enough to tell and complete the story that was hinted at one issue earlier, about the dragon. But what we did receive was a joy, and certainly makes a good interlude between the war with Culen and whatever adventure awaits....<br />
<br />
==First Appearances==<br />
===Characters===<br />
* [[Brother Valdez]]<br />
* [[Mack Kemp]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Benvolio]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[Malvolio]] (No Lines)<br />
* [[General Bones]] (No Lines)<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
* [[Scone Clan]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
* [[Loch Ness Clan]] (Mentioned Only)<br />
<br />
==Tidbits==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Cover Gallery==<br />
{| align=left<br />
| [[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_4_Gallery1.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]<br />
|}<br />
[[Image:Dynamite_Gargoyles_Dark_Ages_4_Gallery2.jpg|thumb|300px|]]<br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
<br style="clear:both;"/><br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
<br />
{| align="center" border="1"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Three|<< Previous Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Three]]'''<br />
| '''[[Alliance Chapter Five|Next Episode: "Alliance" Chapter Five>>]]''' <br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon episodes]]<br />
[[Category:Dark Ages]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Romeo_and_Juliet&diff=39382Romeo and Juliet2023-11-10T01:56:22Z<p>Merlyn: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''''Romeo and Juliet''''' is a play written by [[William Shakespeare]] around 1595 set in [[Italy]] about the tragic romance between two adolescents from constantly quarrelling families.<br />
<br />
In [[Timeline#1996|1996]], while [[Broadway]] read the opening of Act II, Scene ii with [[Angela]], [[Brooklyn]] quoted the scene's end ("Parting is such sweet sorrow"). ''([[The Journey|"The Journey"]])''<br />
<br />
After being released from [[Sing Sing Correctional Facility|prison]] in [[Timeline#1997|1997]], [[Dino Dracon]] later taunted both [[Peter Choy]] and [[Rosaria Sanchez]] as "Romeo and Juliet" when he kidnapped them in [[Central Park]]. ''([[Tale Old as Time|"Tale Old as Time"]])''<br />
<br />
[[Mab|Queen Mab]]{{CIT|, [[Oberon]]'s mother and deposed ruler of the [[Children of Oberon|Third Race]],}} is mentioned by Mercutio in Act I, Scene iv. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3273][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3330][https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3649]<br />
<br />
One of the players in Peredur's troupe was named "Benvolio", a name borne by a friend of Romeo's in the play. ''([[The Promise|"The Promise"]])''<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
A ''Romeo and Juliet'' plot is intended as a key theme for ''[[The New Olympians (spin-off)|The New Olympians]]'' [[:Category:Spin-Offs|spin-off]]. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=116]<br />
<br />
In addition to the play's continuing impact on the [[Gargoyles Universe|''Gargoyles'' Universe]], [[Greg Weisman]] first became aware of Deborah Strang when she performed as Juliet's nurse in a production of ''Romeo and Juliet''. She was later cast in ''[[The Spectacular Spider-Man]]'', ''[[Young Justice]]'', and the ''[[Rain of the Ghosts]]'' AudioPlay. [https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10817]<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Romeo_and_Juliet}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]<br />
[[Category:Real world]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Fleur&diff=39381Fleur2023-11-10T01:04:49Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Blanchefleur.JPG|thumb|220px|Fleur in 1996.]]<br />
[[Image:Blanchefleur2.png|thumb|220px]]<br />
[[Image:Player_King_The_Promise.jpg|thumb|220px|The Player King and Queen in 971]]<br />
<br />
'''Fleur''' (originally '''Blanchefleur''') is [[Peredur fab Ragnal]]'s wife and the Grail Queen at [[Castle Carbonek]], where she still resides. She is also a member of the [[Illuminati]].<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
{{CIT|Blanchefleur married Peredur after his quest for the [[Holy Grail]].}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1415] {{CIT|Blanchefleur's use of the Holy Grail has given her immortality, but with the price of being estranged from her husband.}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2237][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=843]<br />
<br />
In 971, Blanchefleur, under the alias of the Player Queen, visited Wyvern Hill during the building of Castle Wyvern, accompanying her husband and Shari.<br />
<br />
Fleur met [[David Xanatos]] in a warehouse after his supposed theft of the [[Stone of Destiny]]. She brought the "stone" back to Carbonek and presented it to Duval and Peredur. She was later seen eavesdropping as Peredur was informed by the [[Spirit of Destiny]] that [[King Arthur Pendragon]] had awakened and returned from [[Avalon]]. <br />
<br />
She also seems to have a contentious relationship with [[Duval]]. ''([[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]])''<br />
<br />
{{CIT|She will accompany King Arthur and [[Griff|Sir Griff]] on their adventures.}} [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1227]<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] (First Appearance)<br />
* [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
* [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
Blanchefleur first appears as Percival's love in Chretien de Troyes' 12th century poem, ''Perceval''. Here she is a young noblewoman whose estate is besieged by one Sir Clamadeus, who lusts after her and her estate; Percival champions her, overthrowing Clamadeus in battle, and wins her heart. The two of them are afterwards separated when Percival continues on his adventures, and do not meet for the remainder of the (admittedly unfinished) poem.<br />
<br />
Later medieval versions of Percival's story omitted Blanchefleur in order to keep Percival a virgin (an important requirement for achieving the Holy Grail in their eyes), but Roger Lancelyn Green reinserted her in his ''King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table'', tying her in more closely into Percival's role as a Grail Knight. Here, Percival comes upon her sleeping in a pavilion on his way to King Arthur's court for the first time, falls in love with her, and exchanges rings with her (a part of the original Percival story in Chretien, although in Chretien's poem the lady in the pavilion is a different character than Blanchefleur); later on they meet briefly at Carbonek, where Percival learns that she has returned his love. However, when the Grail Procession takes place in the hall where they stand, Percival becomes so excited by it that he rides out of the castle vowing to go on the Quest of the Holy Grail, realizing only too late that he cannot find his way back to Carbonek or Blanchefleur afterwards. At the end of the quest, however, he and Blanchefleur are reunited at Carbonek, where she now serves as the Grail Maiden; they are wedded there (Sir [[Galahad]] himself officiating at the ceremony), and rule over Carbonek together happily.<br />
<br />
==Production Background==<br />
Fleur is the ''[[Gargoyles (TV series)|Gargoyles]]'' version of the Arthurian character Blanchefleur, wife of [[Percival]], both of whom Greg had revealed in 2000 were still alive in the [[Gargoyles Universe]]. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=843]<br />
<br />
Fleur's name was not used during her appearance in "Rock of Ages", however [[Greg Weisman]] referred to her as Fleur in [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11965 responses] at [[Ask Greg]], as well as in the script for the 2008 [[Gathering of the Gargoyles|Gathering]] Radio Play, which adapted the entire [[Stone of Destiny]] story arc in chronological order. [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=841] Greg has also referred to her as Blanchefleur, again in [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=829 comments] at Ask Greg as well as in the cast list for the 2008 Gathering Radio Play (but not the script itself). [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=838]<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Blanchefleur}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Humans]]<br />
[[Category:Illuminati]]<br />
[[Category:Real world characters]]</div>Merlynhttps://gargwiki.net/index.php?title=Peredur_fab_Ragnal&diff=39380Peredur fab Ragnal2023-11-10T01:03:28Z<p>Merlyn: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Peredur.png|thumb|220px|Peredur fab Ragnal in 1996]]<br />
[[Image:Player_King_The_Promise.jpg|thumb|220px|The Player King and Queen in 971]]<br />
<br />
'''Peredur fab Ragnal''' is the leader of the [[Illuminati]], who achieved the [[Holy Grail]] {{CIT|and became the [[Fisher King]]}}. [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=843][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11978][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12554]<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
{{CIT|He married [[Fleur|Lady Blanchefleur]], and ruled over [[Castle Carbonek]] by her side. Peredur is apparently an illegitimate son of [[Gawain]], one of [[King Arthur Pendragon]]'s leading knights, by Lady [[Ragnal]].}} [http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1303]<br />
<br />
{{CIT|In the early [[Timeline#Before 994|7th century A.D]]., Peredur founded the Illuminati Society, for some as yet unknown purpose, though probably connected to Arthur's anticipated return (which he expected to take place at the end of the [[Timeline#1998-2197|22nd century]]).}} [http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=591][http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4593]<br />
<br />
In 971, under the alias of the Player King, Peredur, accompanied by Blanchefleur and Shari, visited Wyvern Hill to witness its building, and bantered with the suspicious Brother Valdez.<br />
<br />
In November, [[Timeline#1996|1996]], Peredur issued orders to [[David Xanatos]], through [[Quincy Hemings]], to seize the [[Stone of Destiny]] en route to [[Scotland]]. ''("[[Bash]]")'' While the stone that he received may not have been the original, the [[Spirit of Destiny]] spoke to Peredur stating that it cannot be possessed. It also informed Peredur that King Arthur had awakened. Not expecting Arthur to awaken for another two centuries, and fearing their plans had been disrupted, Peredur convened a meeting of the upper echelon members.<br />
<br />
Blanchefleur and [[Duval]] are the two people he loves most in this world. ''("[[Rock of Ages]]")''<br />
<br />
==Appearances==<br />
* [[Bash|"Bash"]] (Mentioned)<br />
* [[Rock of Ages|"Rock of Ages"]] (First Appearance)<br />
* [[The Reach|"The Reach"]]<br />
* [[The Promise|"The Promise"]]<br />
<br />
==Real World Background==<br />
"Peredur" is the Welsh counterpart of Sir [[Percival]], one of King Arthur's knights in the medieval romances, and the initial Grail hero. He is the protagonist of the Welsh prose romance ''Peredur Son of Evrawg''.<br />
<br />
Peredur seems to have begun as a Dark Age British warrior-hero; there was a prince in northern Britain during the late 6th century A.D. who bore that name and may have been the original of this figure. ("Evrawg", the name of the Arthurian Peredur's father, is thought to be derived from "Eboracum", the Roman name for York.) It is as yet unknown when he became identified with the Percival of Arthurian romance, though ''Peredur Son of Evrawg'' is thought to have been composed during the thirteenth century.<br />
<br />
Sir Percival himself first appeared in the 12th century French verse romance, ''Perceval, or the Story of the Grail'', by Chretien de Troyes, which also introduced the Grail into Arthurian literature. Chretien left the story unfinished, and many writers after him tried to complete it for him, in a series of works known as "Continuations". In the early 13th century, Robert de Boron composed a trilogy about Percival and the Grail, though the third book, which would have dealt with Percival himself, is lost. The "Prose Lancelot" or Vulgate Cycle introduced Sir Galahad into the Grail story and made him the chief Grail hero, though preserving Percival as a sort of runner-up, one of the three knights who achieved the Grail, alongside Galahad and Bors de Ganis. Malory used this version in his ''[[Le Morte d'Arthur]]'', though in more recent years, many writers on the Grail have turned back to the older, Percival version of the story.<br />
<br />
The story of Percival differs in its details from one storyteller to the next, but generally agree on the skeleton of the tale. Percival's mother raised him in secret in a remote forest in Britain (usually located in Wales), keeping him ignorant of knights and knighthood (in most versions of the story, his father and older brothers had been slain in battle or tournaments, and she wished to spare him from the same fate). But one day, when he was in his mid-teens, Percival saw a few of King Arthur's knights riding through the forest. Mistaking them for angels, he greeted them and learned of their true nature. After asking them about their arms and armor, and the work of a knight, he ran away from home to go to King Arthur's court and become a knight himself.<br />
<br />
Percival came to King Arthur's court just as a knight in red armor stole a cup from the king's table and rode off with it, challenging any of Arthur's knights to meet him in single combat and battle him over the cup. Percival took up the challenge, and slew the Red Knight by hurling a javelin straight through the visor of his helmet and into his eye. He then, after removing the Red Knight's armor with some difficulty (being unfamiliar with armor, he was about to resort to the desperate measure of burning the knight out of it before one of Arthur's knights courteously showed him how to take the armor off the Red Knight) and donning it, set off for a life of adventure, during which he met his lady-love, Blanchefleur, for the first time. He also came to the Grail Castle (the counterpart to Carbonek, though the name is not found in Chretien, and first appears in the Vulgate Cycle), where his old uncle the Fisher King ruled. The Fisher King was crippled with a terrible spear-wound in the leg, which could only be healed by somebody asking him a specific question (what this question is varies from tale to tale; some versions make it "Whom does the Grail serve?", while others make it "What pains you so?"); when Percival ate dinner with him and his court, he wished to ask the question, but remained silent because he had been advised not to go around plaguing people with numerous questions. He only learned after he had left the Grail Castle that he had done the wrong thing by remaining silent, and that if he had asked the question, the Fisher King would have been healed, and would have recognized Percival as his nephew and heir.<br />
<br />
Percival returned to Arthur's court, where he became a knight of the Round Table; however, not long afterwards, a hideous woman appeared and berated him before the entire court for not asking the question. Percival left Arthur's court at once in desperation to find the Grail Castle again and ask the question. He rode about looking for it for five years, in the process becoming increasingly forgetful of God and not even attending services at church, until he met some knights and ladies on Good Friday, who rebuked him for riding armed on such a day. Chastened, Percival sought out a nearby hermit, who gave him spiritual instruction, and told him also that he had failed in part to ask the question on his visit to the Grail Castle because he had abandoned his mother, who had consequently died of a broken heart. (It is here that Chretien's account broke off.) In the Continuations, Percival usually returns to the castle, asks the question, and succeeds his uncle to the guardianship of the Grail, but in the Vulgate Cycle and Malory, he becomes a hermit near the city of Sarras (somewhere in the Middle East) after Galahad's death and the taking of the Grail up to Heaven, dying himself a year later. The Welsh romance "Peredur" takes a remarkably different turn; it omits the Grail, and instead gives Peredur the duty of avenging a murdered kinsman upon a band of warrior witches from Gloucester, whom he slays with the help of Arthur and his knights.<br />
<br />
Roger Lancelyn Green, one of Greg Weisman's chief sources on the Arthurian legend, made some modifications to the story of Percival in his account of King Arthur and his knights. One was a hint that Percival was the son of Sir Gawain by Lady Ragnell, the Loathly Damsel whom he wed. Green was inspired by the similarity of Percival's story to the motif of the "Fair Unknown", a young man who grows up in obscurity but emerges from his remote dwelling-place to become a great knight; in most versions of this story, the "Fair Unknown" is Gawain's son. It is presumably from here that Weisman drew Peredur's patronymic of "fab Ragnal", Welsh for "son of Ragnal" ("Ragnal" is evidently a variant of "Ragnell", and it would be appropriate for Peredur to be linked to the mother who raised him). Green also depicted Blanchefleur as not merely a lady love of Percival's, as in Chretien, but as linked to the mysteries of the Holy Grail; at the end of the Grail Quest, they marry (Sir Galahad himself officiates at their wedding) and rule over Carbonek together, a concept which Greg Weisman followed in his interpretation of Blanchefleur as residing in Carbonek and, like Peredur, a high-ranking member of the Illuminati.<br />
<br />
Greg's choice of "Peredur" rather than "Percival" for this character may be part of the present custom among modern-day Arthurian writers to use the old Welsh names for the familiar figures of the Arthurian cycle, to link it more closely to its Dark Age roots (such as "Cai" for Kay, "Bedwyr" for Bedivere, "Medraut" for Mordred, etc.), though this is the first time that this practice has appeared in ''Gargoyles''.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*{{wikipedia|Percival}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Canon characters]]<br />
[[Category:Humans]]<br />
[[Category:Illuminati]]<br />
[[Category:Real world characters]]</div>Merlyn