Difference between revisions of "Talk:Boudicca"

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::Don't get angry. I never said only my opinion matters, but I'm pretty sure you are the only one who thinks Boudicca has hair. I don't think Greg ever said Leo and Una are furry, but that doesn't really matter. Don't yell at me for bringing up Ophelia and Demona and then bring them up. Boudicca's horns don't "abruptly" change shape, number or location. I'm sure a gargoyle could have khaki hair, I just don't think Boudicca does. As for green or blue hair, you are wrong about a gargoyle not being able to have that. [[Malibu]]'s hair is green. I have no problems disagreeing with you. I just wish you'd explain WHY you think what you think. Show me why you think her horns are hair. DO you honestly think it is hair or are you just being devil's advocate? If anyone else is reading this, do you think Boudicca has hair? --[[User:Matt|Matt]], 15 September 2007
 
::Don't get angry. I never said only my opinion matters, but I'm pretty sure you are the only one who thinks Boudicca has hair. I don't think Greg ever said Leo and Una are furry, but that doesn't really matter. Don't yell at me for bringing up Ophelia and Demona and then bring them up. Boudicca's horns don't "abruptly" change shape, number or location. I'm sure a gargoyle could have khaki hair, I just don't think Boudicca does. As for green or blue hair, you are wrong about a gargoyle not being able to have that. [[Malibu]]'s hair is green. I have no problems disagreeing with you. I just wish you'd explain WHY you think what you think. Show me why you think her horns are hair. DO you honestly think it is hair or are you just being devil's advocate? If anyone else is reading this, do you think Boudicca has hair? --[[User:Matt|Matt]], 15 September 2007
  
:::You're insulting me, I have a right to be angry. In addition to treating me like I'm stupid and blind, you also accuse me of lying just to piss you off.
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:::You're insulting me, I have a right to be angry. In addition to treating me like I'm stupid and blind, you also accuse me of lying just to piss you off. You're '''severely''' hurting my feelings.
:::I just explained why I think she has hair. The number of "spikes" on her head is totally inconsistent, especially in The Gathering. Other gargoyles also have hair that grades smoothly without a line into their skin (look at Leo's lips and the tan part of his beard). However, you've declared that my reason is completely invalid, I don't know why. Can we please just agree to disagree? I don't understand why your opinion is inherently superior to mine. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to have an opinion, too. It's very insulting to me for you to declare that your ''opinion'' is an incontrovertible ''fact''. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 20:30, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
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:::I just explained why I think she has hair. The number of "spikes" on her head is inconsistent, especially in The Gathering (Sometimes there's six bits in two chunks, off to the sides. Sometimes there's one big chunk in the center. (lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_13 and lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_08) Sometimes it's just asymetrical. (lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_06) That's the main reason I think it's hair. And I don't see any need to assume that hair can't be the same color as skin. Other gargoyles have hair that grades smoothly without a line into their skin (look at Leo's lips and the tan part of his beard). Other gargoyles have hair with two different colors (Una, Leo). However, you've declared that my reasons are completely invalid, I don't know why. Can we please just agree to disagree? I don't understand why your opinion is inherently superior to mine. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to have an opinion, too. It's very insulting to me for you to declare that your ''opinion'' is an incontrovertible ''fact''. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 20:30, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
 
:::By the way, tell me how to link to individual responses on Ask Greg, and I'll prove that Leo and Una are furry.
 
:::By the way, tell me how to link to individual responses on Ask Greg, and I'll prove that Leo and Una are furry.
  
 
Just to inject some fresh opinion in here, my personal opinion is that she has a crest of headspikes.  I'm basing that partially on just how they look to me and partly on the fact that we don't yet have any evidence of gargoyle beasts with hair.  I realize that Boudicca's horns probably do vary in size, shape, and number, but I chalk that up to inconsistant animation.  If you look at the screencaps on Lynati's page for her, you'll see similar variation in the shape of her muzzle/beak and in the last one, her face is colored wrong.
 
Just to inject some fresh opinion in here, my personal opinion is that she has a crest of headspikes.  I'm basing that partially on just how they look to me and partly on the fact that we don't yet have any evidence of gargoyle beasts with hair.  I realize that Boudicca's horns probably do vary in size, shape, and number, but I chalk that up to inconsistant animation.  If you look at the screencaps on Lynati's page for her, you'll see similar variation in the shape of her muzzle/beak and in the last one, her face is colored wrong.
 
That being said, I think this has turned into a very heated argument over a very minor point and everyone could stand to walk away from it and chill out for a while. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]], 15 September 2007
 
That being said, I think this has turned into a very heated argument over a very minor point and everyone could stand to walk away from it and chill out for a while. -- [[User:Demonskrye|Demonskrye]], 15 September 2007
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:I don't care terribly about Boudicca, but I'm very, very hurt by Matt's attitude towards me, and I care a great deal about that. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 20:50, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
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I always thought they were horns, similar to Ophelia's.  Boudicca's horns are the same color as her skin and she's not furry.  Why would a dog have a full head of hair anyway?  I just don't see how that's possible.  Besides, her horns never move, and they never change shapes.  They've stayed consistent in all the episodes she's been in.  How could it be hair? [[User:Dtaina|Dtaina]] 23:41, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
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::In the pictures on Lynati's page, they look to me like they change shapes, as I pointed out above on the individual images. *shrug* I'm beginning to agree about the ears, though. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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:::Notice the yellow below her horns, what you believe to be hair?  If she had hair, why would it be one color on top and another on the bottom?  It seems to me that this is clear evidence that that isn't hair, but horns, or a crest of some sort (like Ophelia's).  [[User:Dtaina|Dtaina]] 15:23, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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::::I think it's just two-colored, really spikey hair. Leo and Una both have two colors of hair, each. And I know that the shape-changing could be an animation error, but I don't think it is. To me, the shape-changing is good evidence that it is not horns, while the color doesn't mean much either way. But I won't argue about Boudicca anymore. We disagree, but there is nothing wrong with that. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 17:24, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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:::::Una and Leo are white and brown just like Goliath is purple and Brooklyn is red.  It's not fur; it's just their skin color.  You have no evidence to suggest that Una and Leo have fur while the rest of the gargoyles do not.  And the "shape-changing" is just the nature of animation.  Different animators draw characters in different ways.  Just look at Ophelia and you'll notice that her wings were never drawn the same.  But we do agree on one thing... Una and Leo both have two colors of hair.  Yeah, gray and blond.  ;) [[User:Dtaina|Dtaina]] 18:22, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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:::::::Greg explicitly stated on Ask Greg that Leo and Una have fur. His exact words were '''"Leo's furry. Una too."''' Hey look, I finally figured out how to direct link it. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3905 -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 14:15, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
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::I never thought about it one way or another. Having read through Matt's arguments I now think that they probably are spines (which, unlike horns, might not be totally rigid). However, I do see that they could possibly be hair, in a Bart Simpson sort of a way, although I don't think that is the case. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 05:28, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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The page on the wiki should reflect the majority opinion of the community. However, that does not mean that I'm not also entitled to an opinion, or that my opinion is invalid and WRONG. And it doesn't change the fact that I have feelings, and they can be hurt, and have been.  -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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:Of course you're entitled to an opinion, Vaevictis, and ''every'' opninion is valid. And I'm sorry your feelings have been hurt. I hope that was never anybody's intention. We all want to make the wiki as good as it can be, and that means that disagreements will happen. In this case it is a shame that your quite sensible suggestion was shot down so quickly, but if you take arguments personally then your feelings will keep being hurt. It's unfortunate but inevitable. -- [[User:Supermorff|Supermorff]] 14:41, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
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::Not any argument bothers me, just the "I'm right, you're wrong." attitude. If I had the same attitude, I'd have started a pointless revert war. I think it's a pretty poor way to run a wiki, frankly. A wiki is supposed to be a community effort (in this case, majority opinion), not the sole creation of whoever happened to edit it last.
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::But thank you for trying to help, Supermorff. I'm grateful for your comment. -- [[User:Vaevictis Asmadi|Vaevictis Asmadi]] 17:24, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

Latest revision as of 11:17, 18 September 2007

Matt, just curious -- since you made the description of her characteristics more certain in tone, I'm wondering if you have found additional information about what that stuff on her head is? I could never tell what it is myself. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:00, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

I don't want to be arrogant about this, but to me it is visually obvious that it is not hair. Beyond that, I simply counted how many spikes there are on the crest. If it was hair, it would have to be the exact same color as her skin, which is unlikely, and there is no line on her head where the skin ends and the hair starts. I went through a lot of pics of Boudicca before changing this. The fact that there are always six distinct spikes to the crest backs it up. It's not like with Demona's spikey hair where the number is always changing due to the nature of hair. --Matt, 14 September 2007
Eh, to me it's really obvious that those are horns and not ears. Where are the ear openings? But I think since we disagree about this, maybe we should ask Greg when the queue opens. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 13:17, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
The ears are something totally else. I think the ears are even more obvious, sorry. Look at Bronx for a guide. He's got his brow ridges with small horns, no cheek horns. Boudicca has brow ridges without horns, but horns on her cheeks. Okay, I think we agree here so far. Now behind their brows are their ears. Notice that both of their ears have a solid part that supports the ear. This is the same color as their topsides, this solid part supports the ear lobe which, while a different shape in Bronx and Boudicca, has one big similarity: It is the color of their undersides. Now behind the ears, Bronx has nothing, but Boudicca sports a six horn spiked crest thingie. *shrugs* --Matt, 14 September 2007
Those same narrow things I think are horns? I can definitely see now how they could be interpreted as ears instead, yes. I still think the stuff behind is too thick to be horns. My feeling is that if it is uncertain, then the entry should reflect that it is uncertain, instead of only supporting one opinion. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 18:24, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
No offense Vaevictis, but what your basically saying is the equivalent of "that thing behind Ophelia's brow horns is too big to be horns, so it might be hair." Whatever it is on Boudicca, it isn't hair. It is clearly made up of six thick spikes forming a crest. A CREST. And I'm not interpreting those things as ears, they ARE ears. If we are going to question everything in this series that hasn't been blatantly stated then we may as well give up on the GargWiki. We don't know for certain that Demona's "hair" is hair, it might be feathers, so lets change her entry to reflect that uncertainty. Please. I think it's 98% likely that Boudicca's ears are ears and that her crest is a six-pointed crest. Nothing else makes much sense. --Matt, 14 September 2007
I didn't design the character, so really all I'm doing is looking at it the way you guys are, but I tend to agree with Matt. Those look like her ears to me. -- gdw
You are offending me Matt. I never said anything about Ophelia or Demona. I'm talking about Boudicca. And I don't think that stuff on her head is horns, and I think it makes perfect sense that she has hair. I think my opinion is just as valid as yours. I also have eyes to look, and a brain to think. I'm looking at all the same pictures. I'm just as informed as you are. I don't see why my opinion should be inherently invalid just because you happen to disagree with me. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 12:35, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

Look. I'm sorry I offended you. Honestly, that is not my intent. I'm talking about Boudicca too. The reson I brought up Ophelia and Demona was to illustrate examples of what I'm hearing from you. Hopefully, at this point we can at least agree that her ears are her ears. As for what is behind them, well, here is my reasons for thinking it is a crest/array of horns: 1. It is the exact same color as her skin. If the artist were going to give her hair, I'm sure they would've chosen any other color besides her EXACT skin tone. 2. There is no line of demarcation. Take a look at Lynati's Gargoyle Screencap Page http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/Ga_Boud.htm Several pics clearly show a smooth transition from her beak to her cheeks to the crest/horns of her head. No place where skin stops and hair starts. 3. There is no evidence of the fluid movement of hair. Boudicca's crest is stationary and doesn't change shape or anything. It always has those distinct horns/spikes. Unlike, say, Demona. If you count the spikes in Demona's hair, the number will change from episode to episode, even scene to scene. Boudicca's crest doesn't do this because it can't. 4. I onced asked Greg a question concerning beasts having hair. While he did say that some beast do indeed have hair, he implied that we havn't seen any yet that do. Now, I'd love to hear your reasoning for thinking it may be hair. Maybe I missed something.

Look. If you use the reducto ad absursum to try to make my opinion sound idiotic, of course it's offensive. Especially if you use that as "evidence" that my point of view is worthless.
There's several pictures on Lynati there where her "horns" abruptly change shape, number, and location. That is why it looks like hair to me. And by the way, Greg has said that Una and Leo are both furry, so don't assume that hair and skin can't be the same color -- or that hair has to all be one color, either. It is an unsupported assumption. If gargoyles can have purple skin, they can surely have khaki hair. It isn't as if Boudicca is green or blue or some other color that hair can't be.
Anyway, unlike you, I'm not claiming that my opinion is the only one that matters. I'm not confusing my opinion with irrefutable, indisputable facts. I'm just asking you to agree to disagree and admit the evidence at hand is not perfectly indisputably clear. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 19:44, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
Don't get angry. I never said only my opinion matters, but I'm pretty sure you are the only one who thinks Boudicca has hair. I don't think Greg ever said Leo and Una are furry, but that doesn't really matter. Don't yell at me for bringing up Ophelia and Demona and then bring them up. Boudicca's horns don't "abruptly" change shape, number or location. I'm sure a gargoyle could have khaki hair, I just don't think Boudicca does. As for green or blue hair, you are wrong about a gargoyle not being able to have that. Malibu's hair is green. I have no problems disagreeing with you. I just wish you'd explain WHY you think what you think. Show me why you think her horns are hair. DO you honestly think it is hair or are you just being devil's advocate? If anyone else is reading this, do you think Boudicca has hair? --Matt, 15 September 2007
You're insulting me, I have a right to be angry. In addition to treating me like I'm stupid and blind, you also accuse me of lying just to piss you off. You're severely hurting my feelings.
I just explained why I think she has hair. The number of "spikes" on her head is inconsistent, especially in The Gathering (Sometimes there's six bits in two chunks, off to the sides. Sometimes there's one big chunk in the center. (lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_13 and lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_08) Sometimes it's just asymetrical. (lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/BoudSet_06) That's the main reason I think it's hair. And I don't see any need to assume that hair can't be the same color as skin. Other gargoyles have hair that grades smoothly without a line into their skin (look at Leo's lips and the tan part of his beard). Other gargoyles have hair with two different colors (Una, Leo). However, you've declared that my reasons are completely invalid, I don't know why. Can we please just agree to disagree? I don't understand why your opinion is inherently superior to mine. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to have an opinion, too. It's very insulting to me for you to declare that your opinion is an incontrovertible fact. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 20:30, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
By the way, tell me how to link to individual responses on Ask Greg, and I'll prove that Leo and Una are furry.

Just to inject some fresh opinion in here, my personal opinion is that she has a crest of headspikes. I'm basing that partially on just how they look to me and partly on the fact that we don't yet have any evidence of gargoyle beasts with hair. I realize that Boudicca's horns probably do vary in size, shape, and number, but I chalk that up to inconsistant animation. If you look at the screencaps on Lynati's page for her, you'll see similar variation in the shape of her muzzle/beak and in the last one, her face is colored wrong. That being said, I think this has turned into a very heated argument over a very minor point and everyone could stand to walk away from it and chill out for a while. -- Demonskrye, 15 September 2007

I don't care terribly about Boudicca, but I'm very, very hurt by Matt's attitude towards me, and I care a great deal about that. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 20:50, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

I always thought they were horns, similar to Ophelia's. Boudicca's horns are the same color as her skin and she's not furry. Why would a dog have a full head of hair anyway? I just don't see how that's possible. Besides, her horns never move, and they never change shapes. They've stayed consistent in all the episodes she's been in. How could it be hair? Dtaina 23:41, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

In the pictures on Lynati's page, they look to me like they change shapes, as I pointed out above on the individual images. *shrug* I'm beginning to agree about the ears, though. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
Notice the yellow below her horns, what you believe to be hair? If she had hair, why would it be one color on top and another on the bottom? It seems to me that this is clear evidence that that isn't hair, but horns, or a crest of some sort (like Ophelia's). Dtaina 15:23, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
I think it's just two-colored, really spikey hair. Leo and Una both have two colors of hair, each. And I know that the shape-changing could be an animation error, but I don't think it is. To me, the shape-changing is good evidence that it is not horns, while the color doesn't mean much either way. But I won't argue about Boudicca anymore. We disagree, but there is nothing wrong with that. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 17:24, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
Una and Leo are white and brown just like Goliath is purple and Brooklyn is red. It's not fur; it's just their skin color. You have no evidence to suggest that Una and Leo have fur while the rest of the gargoyles do not. And the "shape-changing" is just the nature of animation. Different animators draw characters in different ways. Just look at Ophelia and you'll notice that her wings were never drawn the same. But we do agree on one thing... Una and Leo both have two colors of hair. Yeah, gray and blond.  ;) Dtaina 18:22, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
Greg explicitly stated on Ask Greg that Leo and Una have fur. His exact words were "Leo's furry. Una too." Hey look, I finally figured out how to direct link it. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3905 -- Vaevictis Asmadi 14:15, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
I never thought about it one way or another. Having read through Matt's arguments I now think that they probably are spines (which, unlike horns, might not be totally rigid). However, I do see that they could possibly be hair, in a Bart Simpson sort of a way, although I don't think that is the case. -- Supermorff 05:28, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

The page on the wiki should reflect the majority opinion of the community. However, that does not mean that I'm not also entitled to an opinion, or that my opinion is invalid and WRONG. And it doesn't change the fact that I have feelings, and they can be hurt, and have been. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:02, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

Of course you're entitled to an opinion, Vaevictis, and every opninion is valid. And I'm sorry your feelings have been hurt. I hope that was never anybody's intention. We all want to make the wiki as good as it can be, and that means that disagreements will happen. In this case it is a shame that your quite sensible suggestion was shot down so quickly, but if you take arguments personally then your feelings will keep being hurt. It's unfortunate but inevitable. -- Supermorff 14:41, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
Not any argument bothers me, just the "I'm right, you're wrong." attitude. If I had the same attitude, I'd have started a pointless revert war. I think it's a pretty poor way to run a wiki, frankly. A wiki is supposed to be a community effort (in this case, majority opinion), not the sole creation of whoever happened to edit it last.
But thank you for trying to help, Supermorff. I'm grateful for your comment. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 17:24, 16 September 2007 (CDT)