Talk:Gargoyle

Old gargoyles

"Gargoyles such as Hudson who live to a ripe old age are rare indeed." OK, in light of the recent revelation of (very) Old Pog's hatch year and age, this just seems silly. In human terms Old Pog is nearly 100 while Hudson is just shy of sixty. Provided he avoids hammers and robots and eats his veggies, Hudson could well have another 80 years before his Wind Ceremony. I don't doubt that gargoyles of Hudson's age were quite rare back in the Dark Ages. But one of the perks of the isolationist lifestyle most modern clans have had to practice to survive is that far fewer gargoyles are killed by humans, since the humans don't realize they exist. So while Pog could conceivably be the only surviving gargoyle in the world from his generation, I imagine there are at least some gargoyles in their 160s or older in the modern clans. So shall we change it? -- Demonskrye 16:23, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

This is a very good point. I think the sentence should be edited to reflect basically what you just said. As with humans, gargoyle soldiers in the middle ages didn't live as long as indivduals living with modern amenities. A gargoyle of the Wyvern Clan in the late 10th century that routinely engages in battle just isn't gonna live as long as a gargoyle in the 20th century that lives on an isolated estate with electricity, plumbing, etc. Anyway, go ahead and reword it, or I'll do it later. -- Matt 17:15, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Culture

A few thoughts going through the culture section:

"While this system has traditionally been the custom, it has, in recent years, been challenged in at least one individual case: that of Angela. Thanks to her having been raised by humans, she was more ready to accept the concept of having an individual father and mother than most young gargoyles, and when she discovered from Sevarius that Goliath was her biological father, looked upon him as such. Goliath disapproved of this for a long while, feeling that such an outlook was not the Gargoyle Way, and also fearing that from there, Angela would find out who her biological mother was; certainly an understandable worry given that that same mother was Demona. But in the end, Diane Maza persuaded him to accept her, which he did."

I'm a little concerned that this section suggests that Goliath and Angela have forgone the traditional gargoyle parent-child relationship in favor of a more human one, which is not the case. The result of "Mark of the Panther" is that Goliath accepts that Angela is one of his children and that he will have a special relationship with her not because they are biologically related, but because she is the only one of his children who chose to travel with him and now lives with him as part of the Manhattan clan. I wouldn't assume that Angela is totally averse to communal parenting and will remain so either. She's never seen it work before, in part because she was raised by humans and in part because first time parent Goliath started out by giving her a pretty lousy example of how communal parenting worked to start with. I think if she talks to Broadway about his experiences in a communally raised clan or if Coldstone and Coldfire join the clan and start treatnig her as their daughter, she'll start to realize that communal parenting doesn't mean parents acting equally distant to all of their children (like Goliath was acting out of fear of favoring Angela for the wrong reasons); it means that the children are loved by all their rookery parents and parents and children are free to form special bonds regardless of biological relationship.

"Traditionally, gargoyles don't have names." Do we know for certain that all clans held this tradition? Looking at "Once Upon a Time there were Three Brothers," it seems that the Scone and Loch Ness may have practiced some degree of naming as early as 967. And we have no way of knowing how early other clans - surviving or extinct - started using names, assuming they didn't always do so. It's traditional for the Wyvern Clan at least, but beyond that is tough to say. Is there a way we could work on this or possible search the archives or ask Greg for clarification on how widespread the lack of names was both in the 900s and earlier? -- Demonskrye 15:20, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

Re: Parenting. I agree that Goliath and Angela have not foregone the traditional gargoyle parent-and-child relationship. They have a special relationship, as you say, not because of biology but because he's her only rookery father and she's his only rookery child right now.

However, I disagree with some of your points. You said Angela has never seen communal parenting in action, but she was raised communally. Her (adopted) rookery parents were Katharine, the Magus and Tom. I think she knows exactly what communal parenting is, how it works and what it's good for. In fact, she's never really witnessed anything except this form of parenting (although she may have heard about other forms).

Angela has repeatedly shown an interest in biological heritage (not only in her own relationships with Goliath and Demona, but in Gabriel's relationship to Coldstone as well). Being raised by humans may (and I stress may) have been a factor, but it's only one out of many other factors, which include Goliath's legendary status among the Avalon Clan and Sevarius' revelation in "Monsters".

So, yes, the section may need to be reworded.

Not sure about the naming thing. -- Supermorff 07:59, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Reworked the section on Angela and the Manhattan Clan's future with communal parenting. Still thinking about the names section. -- Demonskrye 20:15, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Looks good. -- Supermorff 08:18, 14 May 2008 (CDT)