I didn't know where to put this, so I figured here was as good a place as any.
I love the new appearances sections, though I tend to agree with the impulse to LIST ALL episodes (preferably w/columns), as opposed to summarizing. But that's easy for me to say, as I sure as hell have no intention of doing it myself. (Waves sheepishly to GXB & especially MATT. VOOTIE, guys!)
Anyway, looking over the new section, something occurred to me that's been nagging at me for awhile...
You'll notice that there isn't an "Appearances" list for Boss-Cat. And why should there be? It's just a nickname for Talon.
But I'm wondering... should there be FULL entries on both Derek and Talon? Or should the Derek entry only be more-or-less as brief as the Boss-Cat entry and otherwise pointing forward to Talon for a FULL BIOGRAPHY, as opposed to splitting the bio between them.
This would also apply to Janine/Fox, Maggie Reed/the Cat, Othello/Coldstone, etc.
I'm just raising this for discussion, mind you. I've been hesitant to weigh in on things like this as ... well, frankly, I really do NOT want my opinion to carry extra weight on how the wiki is managed. (As opposed to the notion that my opinion SHOULD carry extra weight on matters of garg "fact".) -gdw
- Interesting idea. I'd be more willing to merge Janine/Fox and Maggie Reed/the Cat. But Derek/Talon really marks two different identities, not just two different names. Probably they aren't as separate as, say, Puck and Owen. If they are merged, what would we call the new page: Derek Maza or Talon? I'm heavily in favour of using the name most used for a character, but in this case... well, it's tricky.
- What we could do, as a sort of compromise, is merge the Appearances sections and leave the rest of the article separate. So, for example, Talon would have a full Appearances section, including appearances by Derek before his change. Derek would have a link to Talon#Appearances, with an explanation that the full Appearances section can be found at the target. Then we should probably specify for each appearance whether the character is appearing as Derek or Talon.
- This would work just as well for Maggie, but Janine... well, Janine and Fox are two different names for the same identity, so I don't think we need bother. (Actually, Maggie the Cat and Maggie Reed are pretty much the same identity, despite the outward changes. Discussion for another time.) Othello/Coldstone is more complicated (as is Iago/Coldsteel and Desdemona/Coldfire). Not sure how best to deal with them. -- Supermorff 08:51, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Yeah, when I got to characters like that it became very tricky. For a character like Janine/Fox or Harry Monmouth/Dingo I think that should remain one page and one Appearances section since a name change or alias doesn't qualify in my mind as enough. So their appearances would also include any stories they were in before they took the names Fox and Dingo. An issue only showing Harry as a little boy running around Down Under and not even mentioning the Dingo name would still be under the Dingo entry.
- With characters like the Mutates, we take it a step further. In many ways these are new individuals... and in many ways they are the same. Maybe a page divided into two sections with two appearances section will work. Or maybe one page containg both Derek and Talon but with an Appearances Section that clearly shows where the change occurred, like a split Appearances Section. That way a person can look at the page and it is clear Derek and Talon are the same person who (in their history) went through a major physical (and emotional) change. Yeah, the more I think about, the Mutates should be merged back together. It gets too onfusing when you have Maggie the Cat, Elisa and Beth Maza all calling Talon Derek, Derek calling himself Talon, etc. It'd look nicer and be simpler and it'll avoid some of these Appearances Section problems...
- Finally, we get to Othello and Desdemona and Iago and Coldstone and Coldsteel and Coldfire. I had no idea how to work with these guys yesterday. Lets take a story like "Reunion". Out of the six above mentioned characters, who appeared, who was mentioned and who gets no reference at all? Well, Coldstone and Coldsteel were clearly in it, and Coldfire was clearly not in it. But the other three names are all debateable. Othello was in control of the body and we saw him through Coldstone's minds eye, so it seems easy, but was he in the story or only mentioned? Desdemona showed up in the mind's eye as well, and her soul is still present in the Coldstone shell, so she's there but is that an appearance or a mention or what? Iago was at least mentioned, but his soul was seen in the mind's eye and was in control of Coldsteel in the end, so is that an appearance or not?
- Frankly for the Coldtrio, I have no idea how to work that out. This is why you shouldn't ressurrect the dead, everything is too complicated. I see good reason to both seperate them and keep them together on pages. I dunno, I guess it is really where the soul/mind is that matters. A dormant soul probably shouldn't be counted as an appearance, should it? Something to think about.
- Meanwhile, I think Maggie the Cat/Maggie Reed can be re-merged and so can Derek Maza/Talon as long as their History Section is subdivided to show the major life change. The appearances section can probably remain as one list for simplicity.
- Oh yeah, and speaking of those appearances lists, I tend to agree with Greg W about columns looking better than the condensed summary list for the main characters, I believe Supermorff is working on getting those columns to look and work right, but once we've figured it out, I'd like to change it also. -- Matt 11:09, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- But where do you want the page, at Derek Maza or at Talon? The appearances section as a single list is definitely preferable though. You can have full appearances (As Derek Maza) and (As Talon), then you can have (Mentioned Only) which doesn't matter whether they've called him Derek or Talon or Boss-Cat or whatever. I confess that I would prefer leaving the Derek Maza and Talon articles separate, but merging the Appearances section. And I would prefer to remerge the Maggie pages into one. But that's just me.
- The Coldtrio is definitely the bigger problem... and, frankly, I don't want to deal with it right now. I have some ideas as to how we could maybe, possibly try to sort it out, but I'd rather sort out the Derek/Talon issue first. -- Supermorff 11:52, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Well, I'd think it would be good to have some consistency with all this and so either Maggie Reed and Maggie the Cat and Derek Maza and Talon all have seperate entries OR there are two entries one for Maggie one for Derek/Talon. That is my opinion of course. I don't understand why Maggie Reed and Maggie the Cate would be one page and Derek and Talon two. As for what to call Derek/Talon's page, I'd say that since his latest form is Talon we put it there, with redirects from Derek Maza of course. Although since Derek was his first form and the name is still used by several people, perhaps that would be the better choice. -- Matt 11:58, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Derek had appearances as Derek before he became Talon, but Maggie was Maggie Reed for about two minutes on screen before she became Maggie the Cat. Afterwards, she still called herself Maggie Reed, whereas Derek picked out a new name for himself. I mean these are small things, but I think they add up. To me, Derek and Talon are two very similar, but different identities for the same character. Maggie Reed and Maggie the Cat are just two names for the same identity (for a single character) - and one of those names isn't even used in canon. That the character looks different when we use each of the names is irrelevant. It is the identity that gets a page, not the name... although Boss-Cat is clearly just a name and gets a page anyway, so my logic isn't perfect. But that's how I think of it. And if you still don't agree, then, well... I guess I'd go for merging them both.
- Anyway, I meddled with David Xanatos' Appearances section, to even up the columns. Have a look. -- Supermorff 12:18, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Maggie the Cat is used in canon. Re-watch "Kingdom", you will hear it there. She hasn't used her last name since "Metamorphosis" - Greg B
- Okay, my bad. -- Supermorff 13:21, 1 January 2008 (CST)
Yes, I noticed the new columns. Very nice. And since Greg B had the initiative and just took off on re-writing the Appearances Sections, I guess we have a head start in that project. As for Derek/Talon Maggie/the Cat. Well, I see your reasoning there. I know what you are saying, and yet I still vote for consistency with this. I do disagree that Maggie Reed and Maggie the Cat are a single character. Or at least I disagree when you say that they are a single character, but Derek/Talon is two characters. They are about the same age and when through the same transformation. They both still have the same brain/mind/soul they had before. We don't know Maggie as well from before the transformation, but that doesn't mean she didn't change. I'd like others to weigh in on this so it isn't just you and I going back and forth, but I strongly feel that consistency is important here. What if flashbacks or something reveal more of Maggie Reed's past, does she then become a sperate person to you? I see what you are saying, I do, but I don't think it'll look consistent in the Wiki, and a lack of consistency always causes us more grief down the road. -- Matt 12:29, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- They aren't different characters, just different identities for the same character. In a more extreme situation, Puck and Owen are the same character too, but different identities. And I am quite determined that we never merge the Puck and Owen articles. Maybe once we learn about Maggie's past then it will become appropriate to separate her page into two as well, but not right now.
- I love consistency as much as the next guy, but even more important than that is to judge each situation on its own merits and not apply a single standard across the board. I've seen wikis where they try to do that and it just doesn't work.
- The more we talk about this, the more I'm beginning to warm up to the idea of merging Derek and Talon. Not there yet, but... We'd definitely need to sort out the page name, and we'd need to separate the sections (sort of as we do in the Goliath article separating by season). -- Supermorff 13:21, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Right, if Talon and Derek merged, there will have to be subsections in the history showing this change. I also feel that is very important. When I read your Puck/Owen analogy, I at first thought you were on to something, but I don't feel the analogy holds. Puck becomes Owen as a SEPERATE character. It is a role he plays. He plays that role a lot and so that role deserves its own page of course, but it is simply a role. He also played the role of Goliath in "Possession" and played the role of Elisa and many others in "Future Tense". The Derek/Talon situation is very different. Derek did not assume the role of Talon, he was (more or less) permanently changed into Talon, but underneath he is still Derek. Talon really is only an alias, like Dingo or Hunter (Bad Guys) or Sleeping King. These people are still Harry and Robyn and Arthur and Talon is still Derek, it is not a sperate role it is who he is now. Lets make two entries, one for Maggie one for Derek and we'll combine Maggie the Cat and Talon into those entries. I think this is consistent and better reflects the reality of the situation. As for what to call them, that is a toughie. I'll give it some thought. Maybe we could call the page Derek Maza/Talon and have all references to Derek or Talon redirect to that page, same with Maggie. I think that'd work best. -- Matt 13:58, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- NO! Definitely no. Pick one or the other, don't try and do both. It won't work.
- Who still calls him Derek and who calls him Talon? The Mazas and Maggie call him Derek. Anyone else? What does he call himself (since "Metamorphosis" I mean)? -- Supermorff 16:42, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Do you really not see any difference between Puck turning into Owen, and Puck impersonating Goliath, Elisa et al.? Huh. -- Supermorff 16:44, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- The only differences I can see between Puck impersonating Owen and Puck impersonating Goliath is that Ouck created Owen (though Vogel was a strong influence) and that he has made a long term promise to Xanatos to remain as Owen and therefore he Owen is gonna be long term while appearing as Goliath was not.
- As for the issue at hand, I'm not exactly sure what you reacted to strongly to. What won't work? The Derek Maza/Talon possible page name? It was only a thought, chill man. What do you think we should do? Relating by who calls him Derek and who calls him Talon sounds like it is getting confusing. I'm trying to think of a new viewer or other person who knows very little about the show coming on here to look him up. What are they gonna type in, probably either Derek Maza or Talon. Sonce either of those really fits both personas, lets just have each be a redirect to one page Derek Maza/Talon or whatever other name for the page we can think of. -- Matt 16:54, 1 January 2008 (CST)
- Lol. I'm chill. The "NO!" wasn't entirely serious, which I understand may not come across in plain text like this so I apologize. However, I am adamant that we not use "Derek Maza/Talon" for a page name. Mostly this is because the MediaWiki software will interpret the page as a Talon subpage of Derek Maza, and so it will automatically link back to Derek Maza, which will redirect to the page. It just won't work. Plus, it would look horrible.
- In the absence of a better suggestion (i.e. one that we can all agree on), let's just merge the Appearances sections and leave the rest as is. Then we can discuss merging the actual pages again at a later date. -- Supermorff 09:10, 2 January 2008 (CST)
- Ah, gotcha. Alright, that works for me. A note on this above the Appearances Section would help alleviate confusion. What exactly do you mean by "merge the" sections? Do you mean giving each page an identical section, or something else? I'll leave this one to you since I'm not sure how you want to do it. -- Matt 09:17, 2 January 2008 (CST)
- That's done. It would be a simple matter to duplicate the section if we wanted (just copy and paste). Acceptable? -- Supermorff 09:28, 2 January 2008 (CST)
I like it a lot. Works for me. I made a couple minor edits to it, but I like the system in general, and for now at least it works for me. Are you going to do the same to Maggie Reed and Maggie the Cat? -- Matt 12:01, 2 January 2008 (CST)
- Could do, but Maggie the Cat already has complete list. In this case I'd prefer not to list the (As Maggie blah), and just replace Maggie Reed's Appearances section with a link. Okay? -- Supermorff 16:12, 2 January 2008 (CST)