Talk:Young Justice

I'm not entirely sure this page needed to be created... This is a Gargoyles site afterall. We should ask ourselves why this page needs to exist here. Are we going to make pages on the GargWiki for every show Greg works on? I'm not saying it should be taken down, because it is only a page, it just seems silly. Just because there are similiar writers, voice actors, voice directors, etc. to Gargoyles should not entitle a show to a page here, in my humble opinion. Maybe if there were CLEAR references to Gargoyles, it wouldn't puzzle me so much. The Illuminati-The Light similarities are just that, they are not references to Gargoyles and shouldn't be listed as such. And if something like that warrants a page here, one must ask why Freakazoid and Darkwing Duck don't have pages here as they made CLEAR references to Gargoyles.

• Steps off soapbox* -- Matt 13:34, 30 November 2010 (CST)

I figure if Spectacular Spider-Man and W.I.T.C.H. can have pages here then there's no reason not to include Young Justice. Plus knowing Greg, there will be a ton of Gargoyles in-jokes once the series starts airing regularly. --Algernon 14:45, 30 November 2010 (CST)

While I would personally have preferred to wait and see what other "Gargoyles" references appear in the series, I've got no problem at all with this page being here. It's cool. And let's face it, this wiki already gives Greg Weisman very special treatment, something else I also have no problem with. --GregX 15:07, 30 November 2010 (CST)

I love special treatment!!! But I don't want you guys to feel obligated to do this sort of thing for every one of my shows. I don't at all mind having this page here, but I won't be upset if the consensus is it should go. No hurt feelings either way.--Gweisman 19:28, 30 November 2010 (CST)

Like I said before, I'm not suggesting we remove the page. My only concern is the precedent this page sets. If this page exists, then a page for everything Greg has worked on should exist. Do we create pages for anything that references Gargoyles or only when Greg was involved and it references Gargoyles or is Greg's involvement enough to warrant a page with no reference to Gargoyles neccesary? Personally, I feel that since this is a Gargoyles Wiki, it should have to have some sort of Gargoyles connection or reference. Look, we all love Greg and his work, but this isn't GregWiki, its GargWiki. Spectacular Spider-Man and W.I.T.C.H. deserve pages because they directly reference Gargoyles, Star Trek deserves a page because it was referenced in the Gargoyles Universe and the voice actor connection bears mentioning, Darkwing Duck and Freakazoid should have pages because of the references they've made to Gargoyles. But Young Justice has made no real references to Gargoyles that I'm aware of, so the only reason to include it here would be that there was a similiar crew working on the show... and that opens a huge floodgate because Greg and Jamie have worked on a ton of stuff. Because YJ is already up and likely to contain Gargoyles references down the road, I'm fine with leaving the page up, but I just think we (the editors here at GargWiki) need to set some sort of standard of what gets a page and what doesn't. I feel that the excitment over Greg's new series is moving people to create pages for no particular reason. -- Matt 21:36, 30 November 2010 (CST)

Matt, you're right. We should come up with a rule of some kind. For example, Max Steel doesn't get a page because, as far as I know, Max Steel had no Gargoyles references. But then, I didn't like the show enough to watch past one episode, so who knows. I am all for mentioning Darkwing because we had a pretty big ref there, and yes, Freakazoid. Personally, I think it's all good. --GregX 23:43, 30 November 2010 (CST)

Might be a little late in the conversation, but I'll just post my two cents in that I second having a page for any show or comic (etc) that has a clear-cut reference to Gargoyles, whether or not Greg personally worked on it. I will also admit that the thought of a "GregWiki" is indeed one appealing can of worms ;) --Pheon 21:04, 4 December 2010 (CST)

It may be considered overkill or too much work, but since the premiere and airing of The Spectacular Spider-Man, I kind of thought that Sister Wikias should be made like one for The Spectacular Spider-Man, one for W.I.T.C.H. and since now, one for Young Justice. Probably worth it or not, but just a suggestion. Antiyonder 17:31, 2 December 2010 (CST)

Well, we're not a wikia. While I wouldn't be opposed to expanding info on the other series Greg worked on, well... this is GargWiki and not GregWiki. Although, I would not be opposed to unofficially turning this into GregWiki. --GregX 18:08, 2 December 2010 (CST)

I know this'll probably sound a little hypocritical being the one who created this page but I'm not too crazy about taking the focus off Gargoyles. I can justify creating Spectacualar Spider-Man, Young Justice and the second season of W.I.T.C.H. pages on the grounds that Greg was a showrunner on all of them much like he was on Gargoyles making them spiritual siblings of a sort. That seems to me to be a far cry from something like The Batman, which Greg only wrote a few freelance scripts for. And even then I think any of Greg's non-garg shows should only get a page each, I certainly wouldn't want us to start doing character pages for Aqualad or Miss Martian.--Algernon 13:37, 3 December 2010 (CST)

Quite true. Although, I have to admit, lately I have been looking at the TFWiki for inspiration. --GregX 13:40, 3 December 2010 (CST)

I kinda already said that I didn't think the page was a good idea on the Community Portal, but since it's now up I guess it wouldn't hurt to wait and see if some Gargoyles references are forthcoming. If they aren't, then I think we should delete the page.

Now, if you are interested in a Young Justice wiki, I've been editing here for a couple of days. Needs works - they don't even have a page for Greg or Brandon - and I wouldn't mind if we linked the two wikis together. (There's also a Wikia for W.I.T.C.H., but I haven't edited there for some time.) -- Supermorff 15:43, 3 December 2010 (CST)

Wow. I just skimmed a few pages of the YJ wiki. TONS of inaccurate info there, based on "editors" making false assumptions and/or getting info from sources OTHER than the series itself. Feels like it could really benefit from a canon/not-canon philosophy like what we have here. Cuz, if something doesn't appear in the series or in the in-continuity YJ comic book -- it just flat out may not be so (no matter how many OTHER DC comics or how many interview seem to indicate it is). We're in a parallel universe and some things from the regular continuity will NOT be true of Earth-16. And as for interviews... well, without naming names, some of the people interviewed - even if they are involved in the series - don't know what they're talking about. And even when Brandon and I have been interviewed, we've been MISQUOTED more than once. (For example, some guy quoted us as saying that Miss Martian was Martian Manhunter's daughter. We NEVER said that. And it isn't true.) I realize that with only two episodes and no comics out so far, it may seem like there isn't much to fill the wiki with except speculation. But it seems to me that there was enough material in those two episodes to keep people busy until January -- just with accurate info. Of course, I'm not sure myself, why I'm writing this up here. Anyway, Supermorf, if that makes sense to you, you can pass the philosophy on to that wiki. I think the idea of having a YJ wiki is very exciting. But there's not much point if it's going to be loaded up with false (or frankly even coincidentally true) assumptions.--Gweisman 05:28, 4 December 2010 (CST)

Just as an example, for all you guys know, Miss Martian's ONLY power may be to change the color of her t-shirt. Anything else... is pure speculation. Some of the speculation may turn out to be right, but I can guarantee that some of what's currently up there now is absolutely wrong.--Gweisman 05:28, 4 December 2010 (CST)

Dude, you are preaching to the choir, and I will definitely try to pass it on. But I really have only been there a few days, and haven't yet spoken to any of the other editors, so I have no idea how they are likely to react.

Guys, on a related note, if we do end up deleting the YJ page here, can we keep the talk page? -- Supermorff 15:28, 4 December 2010 (CST)

We're not deleting the page. No worries. --GregX 19:38, 4 December 2010 (CST)

GregX> What does TFWiki do that looks good? Anything we could use? -- Supermorff 15:43, 3 December 2010 (CST)

I have to admit, I enjoy the rather sarcastic bent it takes sometimes. Well, all the time. --GregX 19:39, 4 December 2010 (CST)

Oh, I see, I thought you meant how they treated non-TF series. The sarcastic tone can be quite amusing, but when you want information about something you don't know about already it's just irritating. I'm not sure we could really use it here without changing the entire purpose of the wiki. -- Supermorff 04:50, 5 December 2010 (CST)

See, I never found it the slightest bit irritating. I've been thinking that if we bring that type of humor to the captions, we might attract people to the GargWiki. They'll come for the humor, stay for the content, and maybe check "Gargoyles" out. I know for a fact that this has happened with people who weren't Transformers fans, but TFWiki entertained them enough to check it out. --GregX 12:41, 6 December 2010 (CST)

I dunno. JMHO, but I find these "pimp" captions annoying. I don't particularly find them funny, and they feel a little desperate to me. Like we don't trust the material. --Gweisman 17:59, 6 December 2010 (CST) (Just my opinion. Not Greg-from-on-high.)

Hey, what you say goes, as far as I'm concerned. It was just an idea. Thanks for your input. :) --GregX 18:04, 6 December 2010 (CST)

I'm all for in-universe jokes but I gotta side with Greg on this one... that pimp caption was too much. DTaina 18:07, 6 December 2010 (CST)

"He can talk?"

Still seems like a coincidence to me. -- Supermorff 15:22, 8 December 2010 (CST)

Considering Mr. Weisman himself wrote the script for Independance Day, I doubt it.--Algernon 16:16, 8 December 2010 (CST)

Still seems like a coincidence. They have different emphasis and accomplish different things in their scenes. The Gargoyles line is spoken directly to Goliath and initiates the dialogue between them. The Young Justice line is spoken to Robin and Aqualad and serves to create even more tension between Superboy and Kid Flash. I'm not saying that it's not a specific reference to the Gargoyles quote, just that I don't think the evidence is overwhelming.

Also, the same line has been used in (off the top of my head) the first Shrek movie and the Simpsons episode where they parody Planet of the Apes, and probably much more besides. -- Supermorff 05:06, 9 December 2010 (CST)

In "The Thrill of the Hunt", Wolf says, "It talks!", referring to Lexington when he introduces himself to the Pack. That episode and Awakening were both written by Michael Reaves. So it could it just as easily be a Reaves-ism and not necessarily tied to Greg Weisman's idiolect.-- RJackson 20:30, 18 January 2011 (CST)

Plus Greg has just answered a question about this at Ask Greg in which he fumfers, but generally implies that it's a coincidence. (Or, at least, that's my reading of it.) -- Supermorff 07:43, 19 January 2011 (CST)

Greg's used variations of the "You can talk?" line in a couple of places, the Gargoyle/Spectacular Spider-Man crossover radio play for one. I'm not sure why this is considered so controversial, Greg's been throwing Gargoyle references and in-jokes into practically he's written in the past decade and a half.

Because it just doesn't seem like a reference or an in-joke. The line is used so frequently in all forms of media that it has its own TVTropes page. (Incidentally does someone who can figure out the syntax add the Gargoyles, Spec Spidey and Young Justice references? Ta.) A point to pick up from that page: they say Terry Pratchett likes playing with the line, but they never imply that later uses are references to earlier uses. -- Supermorff 11:23, 23 January 2011 (CST)

Yeah, I totally agree. I have a hard time seeing this as a reference to Gargoyles. First of all, it isn't a direct quote. Secondly, the line in Gargoyles isn't so well known that it would be worth referencing. Third, the line holds no special significance to Gargoyles, like using the number 994 would. Finally, the way I read Greg's Ask Greg post makes me think that Greg was mostly joking around. I should add that if the reference in question has to be debated, then it isn't a clear enough reference to warrant adding to this page. I don't think it counts. -- Matt 11:58, 23 January 2011 (CST)

Well, however this discussion goes, I did update the TVTropes pages for Gargoyles and "You Can Talk." If the ending consensus is that it's not as noteworthy as originally thought, then at least the Young Justice page over there doesn't have to connect to the Gargoyles page d: --Pheon 12:48, 23 January 2011 (CST)

Elevator shaft

Actually what reminded me more of "Awakening" than "He can talk?" was how Aqualad, Robin and Kid Flash broke into and used an elevator shaft to descend into Cadmus, a research facility. It reminded me of how the trio broke into and used an elevator shaft to descend several floors into Cyberbiotics, a research facility. I don't know...what do you think? Am I reaching? RJackson 2:37, 25 January 2011 (Korean time)

You are reaching. --GregX 14:00, 24 January 2011 (CST)

The funny thing is that the exact same thought occured to me the first time I saw "Independence Day". It is a very similiar scene (three young male heroes descending the elevator shaft). In fact, like you, this reminded me of Gargoyles way more than the "He can talk?" thing. That said, I agree with Greg B. This still doesn't count as a reference to Gargoyles. It isn't referencing Gargoyles at all. It is a similiar scene. So what? If we see a stone gargoyle resembling a character or an iconic line like "What could be strong enough..." that would count. I think the defining factor needs to be that it was something clearly and deliberatly done by the writers and/or animators to pay homage to Gargoyles. The elevator scene and the "He can talk?" thing might be similiar to things seen in Gargoyles, but so what? It is obviously not clear that these were related to Gargoyles in any way, nor does it seem to be deliberate. So they don't count. --Matt 16:01, 24 January 2011 (CST)

I do agree with you guys. However, elevator shafts do play a large role in Gargoyles, such as in "Revelations" when Goliath, Mace and Matt where in the elevator shaft at the Hotel Cabal or when Broadway climbed down the elevator shaft of Matt's apartment building to capture Pal Joey. Hmm, maybe elevator shafts need their own page. I'm joking. Don't take away my editing priviledges. ;)--RJackson 13:18, 25 January 2011 (Korean time)

Hair/Brow Stroke

This one seems kind of weak to me. Reaching. For the same reasons I've noted before (read the enties above), this doesn't seem like a Gargoyles reference at all. -- Matt 00:07, 23 February 2013 (PST)

Greg confirmed it to me when I asked him about it in an e-mail. --GregX 00:27, 23 February 2013 (PST)

Ed Asner and Cree Summer in Young Justice

Check it out, sounds like Ed and Cree will be playing Dr. Fate and Madame Xanadu respectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgcTmoGyNlg

If it's cool with everyone I'll add'em to the cast list. --Algernon 15:36, 9 February 2011 (CST)

Ed's not playing Doctor Fate--Gweisman 17:16, 9 February 2011 (CST)

Young Justice Wiki

Does anyone mind if we link the characters names to the Young Justice Wiki? It would make more sense, instead of linking to their comics counterparts... Thogial 04:36, 15 June 2011 (PDT)

References

Well, there's no bigger confirmation than having your edits reversed by Greg Weisman himself, but I'm flummoxed. How are we supposed to tell references apart from similarities? Savage's scars were a foregone conclusion to me and many others who asked about it on Ask Greg, but they turned out not to be intentional. Now, apparently the upgraded wolf bit was intentional, though that was much more obscure than the scars. So, how do we know when a reference is a reference or just a coincidence/similarity? Can we add Zatanna's reversed spell (Fire burn and cauldron bubble) and Superboy's line "None of this is real"? --Thogial 05:45, 22 January 2012 (PST)

I guess we just have to ask on a case by case basis on Ask Greg or wait for the man himself to validate our suppositions. Personally, it made my day to have Greg Weisman validate me since I noticed the "upgrade wolf" thing. --RJackson 12:13, 23 January 2012 (KST)

Asking on a case by case basis is a discouraging prospect, given the huge queue on unanswered questions and the average timespan for each reply. Though, there's not really a better alternative I suppose. Thogial 09:39, 23 January 2012 (PST)

Episode Credits

Not a big deal or anything, but why are we posting episode credits for Young Justice on the Gargoyles Wiki? I'm sure this information is wonderful to have on the YJ Wiki, but what purpose does it serve here? This is a Gargoyles Wiki afterall... Not a Greg Weisman Wiki (as much as we all love Greg and value his work). -- Matt 18:13, 14 May 2012 (PDT)

Well, my original comment after adding the first batch of YJ episode credits (and the available credits for SpecSpidey) was "don't know if this is good idea, but seemed worthwhile" To clarify, my intention was largely just to give these pages some (additional) relevant AskGreg rambles. Ultimately (& personally) though, I wouldn't mind if the consensus was for the credits to be removed (and if they're not on the YJ wiki yet, I'm sure they'll be up eventually) :) --Pheon 21:35, 14 May 2012 (PDT)